Blackmagic Forum

Hi y'all,
i'm new to LOG shooting, so could someone help me out a little here? i graded some footage in davinci resolve 17, got it about to where i wanted it, and then exported it using h.265. for some reason the footage got exported with about 2x the saturation as my final result in the timeline. if i exported it in h.264, it was a lot closer; almost right on. why should the compression level have anything to do with the color? am i missing something here? thanks in advance for clarification.

Jared

This might not apply because it takes deliberate adjustment of settings, but I use H.265 only for HDR delivery, and H.264 for all SDR delivery.

Jim Simon wrote:This might not apply because it takes deliberate adjustment of settings, but I use H.265 only for HDR delivery, and H.264 for all SDR delivery.

Hi Jim,
thanks for the reply. h.264 seems to be more accurate, until i upload it to youtube, or play it with VLC player; then it's also over-saturated compared to my timeline footage. do i have settings messed up somewhere that render my timeline preview differently than my export settings? isn't that automatically done with everything set to "same as timeline"? it'll be a while before i try shooting log again :/

jwsl224 wrote:

Jim Simon wrote:This might not apply because it takes deliberate adjustment of settings, but I use H.265 only for HDR delivery, and H.264 for all SDR delivery.

Hi Jim,
thanks for the reply. h.264 seems to be more accurate, until i upload it to youtube, or play it with VLC player; then it's also over-saturated compared to my timeline footage. do i have settings messed up somewhere that render my timeline preview differently than my export settings? isn't that automatically done with everything set to "same as timeline"? it'll be a while before i try shooting log again :/

VLC doesn't do color management, so it's non sense to use it to judge color. Similar your browser very likely not do it by default, so you may need to configure it to do so.

i have the same issue, i discoveret that is due to color managment, if you don't manage color and use daVinci yrgb rec 709 (scene) on exporting davinci convert autonomously applies a conversion to rec709, the only way is to use the color management and select on the bypass clip so that the log color space of the camera is used and to your converions no further conversion is applied that I honestly do not know from where you get to is probably a bug

peterjackson wrote:

jwsl224 wrote:

Jim Simon wrote:This might not apply because it takes deliberate adjustment of settings, but I use H.265 only for HDR delivery, and H.264 for all SDR delivery.

Hi Jim,
thanks for the reply. h.264 seems to be more accurate, until i upload it to youtube, or play it with VLC player; then it's also over-saturated compared to my timeline footage. do i have settings messed up somewhere that render my timeline preview differently than my export settings? isn't that automatically done with everything set to "same as timeline"? it'll be a while before i try shooting log again :/

VLC doesn't do color management, so it's non sense to use it to judge color. Similar your browser very likely not do it by default, so you may need to configure it to do so.

if my browser doesn't do so by default, i have to assume neither will the browser of my audience. so with all the color grading going on by youtubers, how do they get it right? your answer is not very indepth

David Benini wrote:i have the same issue, i discovered that is due to color managment, if you don't manage color and use daVinci yrgb rec 709 (scene) on exporting davinci convert autonomously applies a conversion to rec709, the only way is to use the color management and select on the bypass clip so that the log color space of the camera is used and to your converions no further conversion is applied that I honestly do not know from where you get to is probably a bug

Hey David,
making progress now changing the color space tag to plain old Rec.709 renders the clip like it is in the timeline, both in VLC player as well as YouTube. as best i can tell, anyway. but. BUT! according to YouTube University, Rec.709 is for 1080p, Rec.2020 is for 4k. I shot the videos in Canon Log using Rec.2020. would you have an explanation as to why exporting in Rec.2020 wrecks the color? pun intended.

Jared

Jared Waldner wrote:h.264 seems to be more accurate, until i upload it to youtube, or play it with VLC player

Ah, there's part of the problem.

Before you can judge an image, you have to make sure you're seeing it accurately. Media players, browsers, operating systems and GPU drivers - these all can and often do alter the image in some way, so you have to take those variables out of the signal path.

In other words, you have to get the image off the computer and onto a calibrated display. The best way to do that is with an I/O card like BMD's own Decklink.

But if you don't have that, then you'll need to take the video to whereever you have a calibrated display and play it from hardware.

Report back once that's done.

Jim Simon wrote:

Jared Waldner wrote:h.264 seems to be more accurate, until i upload it to youtube, or play it with VLC player

Ah, there's part of the problem.

Before you can judge an image, you have to make sure you're seeing it accurately. Media players, browsers, operating systems and GPU drivers - these all can and often do alter the image in some way, so you have to take those variables out of the signal path.

In other words, you have to get the image off the computer and onto a calibrated display. The best way to do that is with an I/O card like BMD's own Decklink.

But if you don't have that, then you'll need to take the video to whereever you have a calibrated display and play it from hardware.

Report back once that's done.

Hi Jim,
i have a calibrated display, and everything is working as it should when using Rec.709 color space when exporting.
As i mentioned above, the question at this point is, why is Rec.2020 turning out so different than Rec.709? I understand that they're different color spaces, but my footage was shot in Rec.2020, and Rec.2020 is recommended for 4k; so why is the export from the timeline using Rec.2020 so off?

Are you using a Rec2020 monitor (i.e. Rec2020 setting on your monitor) or are you looking at that Rec2020 clip on a 70ß monitor?

Frank Glencairn wrote:Are you using a Rec2020 monitor (i.e. Rec2020 setting on your monitor) or are you looking at that Rec2020 clip on a 70ß monitor?

Hi Frank,
it's funny that you mention that, because my monitor is actually using Rec.709. Should i ditch the whole Rec.2020 then? even if i'm doing 4k work?

Resolution and color spaces are independent of each other.
So, you can use 709 with 4K (actually UHD) just the same. And then, ordinary consumer screens can't display HDR precisely anyway.

Jared Waldner wrote:[
Hi Frank,
it's funny that you mention that, because my monitor is actually using Rec.709. Should i ditch the whole Rec.2020 then? even if i'm doing 4k work?

Yes, colorspace has noting to do with resolution per se.

Frank Glencairn wrote:Yes, colorspace has noting to do with resolution per se.

the below image is what i ran into online. that's what made me think colorspace and resolution are at least somewhat linked. Frank, you're a colorist, what do you recommend? are there any limitations of rec.709 that me as a total novice in color grading am likely to encounter? my monitor can likely not even display rec.2020, would blowing money into an expensive monitor be worth it?
i'm just doing non-profit work video recording events in the local church. like the choirs, graduations, etc.

Stick to 709 then, nothing wrong with it.

Uli Plank wrote:Stick to 709 then, nothing wrong with it.

so you're totally sure that when i'm 100 years old i won't look back on a life of rec.709 color grading and be totally full of regrets; pulling on whatever hair i have left, pining and writing sad poetry of how i failed at life because of everything that could've been had i but chosen rec.2020 color space?
as an aside, i'm shooting with a Canon R6, which can go up to 10-bit 4k. that should be a deciding factor as well, not?

LOL! No one can promise you that!

The color space you shoot in and grade in doesn't matter to the YouTube watcher. To view your material in anything better than 709, they'd need a graphics card/monitor/TV which displays "high dynamic range" colors beyond the gamut range in 709 (in fact they most likely have an un-calibrated sRGB monitor, with who-knows-what color temp. and gammas set, like the latest trend of cutting blue out so ppl can sleep better!) . Likewise, if your editing/grading system can only display 709, it's pointless (or worse) to work in a wider gamut space, because you'll never see those extra colors anyway.

If you're delivering SDR content, what shooting in "HDR" (Rec 2020, etc) gives you is the ability to choose which colors to prioritize in your grading/post. If you have a scene with a wide dynamic range (eg. bright sky/clouds with dark ground subjects), your HDR camera will capture more of those colors in 2020 than in 709. But in post you'll still need to decide which parts to prioritize, eg. the bright puffy clouds or the darker ground subjects... likely at least one of those will be blown out/buried once in the more limited 709/sRGB gamut.

For SDR UHD YT content I find h264 and h265 have the same end result, with h265 having smaller file size but being more resource intensive to encode and play back locally. I have the bandwidth, so I usually just do h264.

I'm fairly new to all this also, so I feel your pain. Hopefully I got most of the above generally correct, if not exactly technical... I don't really understand that chart you posted, I think it's misleading in terms of resolution/FPS... those aren't tied to color space in any way. Nor is bit depth for that matter.

Cheers,
-Max

Max Paperno wrote:If you're delivering SDR content, what shooting in "HDR" (Rec 2020, etc) gives you is the ability to choose which colors to prioritize in your grading/post.

alright. so i'll continue shooting in rec2020, to "future proof" myself and then i can always switch once i acquire better equipment. I have a so-called "HDR Monitor", but i have yet to dive into the calibration at that level. so once i get better at this and start deliver HDR content, the switch will merely be a setting in Resolve and my media will be ready to go. thanks for the explaination

Jared Waldner wrote:

Frank Glencairn wrote:
Frank, you're a colorist, what do you recommend?

Max explained it perfectly, there is nothing I could add.

Frank Glencairn wrote:

Jared Waldner wrote:

Frank Glencairn wrote:
Frank, you're a colorist, what do you recommend?

Max explained it perfectly, there is nothing I could add.

alright then. dankeschön. thanks for dropping by guys.