'White' text is grey in a Colormanaged environment?

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MaicoOrdelmans

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'White' text is grey in a Colormanaged environment?

PostSun Oct 10, 2021 9:06 am

Hi,

Whenever I work in Davinci Wide Gamut (Loving it except for this), all of my text and everything that is generated in Resolve that is supposed to be white, is actually grey. I read somewhere online that this was a problem back in 2019 as well, is there a fix at this point?

I am away I can select the clip, and choose to bypass the ColorSpace, however this doesn't work as well, and it seems kind of tedious to have to do this for every single title and animation that contains white.

Anyone have an awnser?

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Andy Mees

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Re: 'White' text is grey in a Colormanaged environment?

PostSun Oct 10, 2021 9:54 am

Yep, the Fusion page, and hence Fusion elements (like Titles) are not Color Space aware ... so they're currently a blind spot when it comes to Resolve Color Management.

A talented educator named Bernd Klimm (VFX Study) posted about this in the Fusion forum and kindly shared the Color Space Transform nodes needed to manually compensate for the Wide Gamut vs Linear disparity.
https://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=137485&p=745551&hilit=wide+Gamut#p745551

I copied his code text, pasted it into the Fusion page, and saved the resulting nodes as a macro (which I called 'WGT', for Wide Gamut Transform) so now I can just quickly add my 'WGT' tool to any title. Works perfectly for me.

Exactly why BMD hasn't addressed the issue is beyond me.
Let's have a return to the glory days, when press releases for new versions included text like "...with over 300 new features and improvements that professional editors and colorists have asked for."
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Re: 'White' text is grey in a Colormanaged environment?

PostSun Oct 10, 2021 12:43 pm

Andy Mees wrote:Exactly why BMD hasn't addressed the issue is beyond me.


Agreed.

I found CM so annoying I went back to CST Nodes.

Maybe someone here can get an official response from BMD on how you are supposed to use CM and Fusion.
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Re: 'White' text is grey in a Colormanaged environment?

PostTue Oct 12, 2021 6:16 pm

[quote="Andy Mees"]Yep, the Fusion page, and hence Fusion elements (like Titles) are not Color Space aware ... so they're currently a blind spot when it comes to Resolve Color Management.

Allright, thanks for the info that explains it obviously. I might try the work around you mentioned, but it seems like a loooot of work for me, who uses many, many titles. Hope they will come with a fix one day!
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Re: 'White' text is grey in a Colormanaged environment?

PostTue Feb 22, 2022 8:45 pm

How is this still not solved?
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Re: 'White' text is grey in a Colormanaged environment?

PostTue Feb 22, 2022 9:21 pm

Is this the same issue as this one?
viewtopic.php?f=21&t=135568

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Andy Mees

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Re: 'White' text is grey in a Colormanaged environment?

PostTue Feb 22, 2022 9:34 pm

Yes, same.
Let's have a return to the glory days, when press releases for new versions included text like "...with over 300 new features and improvements that professional editors and colorists have asked for."
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Re: 'White' text is grey in a Colormanaged environment?

PostWed Feb 23, 2022 1:06 am

venison wrote:How is this still not solved?


Notice how many BM employees have ever commented on these topics. My count is zero.
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Re: 'White' text is grey in a Colormanaged environment?

PostWed Feb 23, 2022 1:09 am

This is resolved for me now on 17.4.4.
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Re: 'White' text is grey in a Colormanaged environment?

PostWed Feb 23, 2022 1:59 am

I still had the issue in Studio 17.4.4 on Windows.
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Re: 'White' text is grey in a Colormanaged environment?

PostSat Apr 30, 2022 4:22 am

I'm using 17.4.6. White paint shows as white on a white png in Fusion, but as grey (against white png) in the edit page.

I'm using Davinci Color Mgmt but am terrified to change it after 40 hours work.

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Andy Mees

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Re: 'White' text is grey in a Colormanaged environment?

PostSat Apr 30, 2022 6:06 am

Are you delivering HDR Nick? If not then you may just want to change your projects Color Management setting to SDR with SDR Rec.709 processing.
Let's have a return to the glory days, when press releases for new versions included text like "...with over 300 new features and improvements that professional editors and colorists have asked for."
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Re: 'White' text is grey in a Colormanaged environment?

PostThu May 12, 2022 6:15 am

Sorry for the extremely slow reply. I misread the manual thinking it said log footage should be processed with HDR set in color mgmt.

I'm afraid to change it since I am 80+ hours in. I just rendered a super short test clip in the project and it seemed to display normally on an 709 screen.

Is DR smart enough to know I don't have HDR source? I'd like to not change it for fear of breaking something.
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Re: 'White' text is grey in a Colormanaged environment?

PostThu May 12, 2022 7:50 am

Andy Mees wrote:Exactly why BMD hasn't addressed the issue is beyond me.


I think "Bypass Colormangement" on Titles & Fusion Composition, Resolve 18 new feature is aimed to solve that.
I might be wrong ...
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Re: 'White' text is grey in a Colormanaged environment?

PostThu May 12, 2022 8:20 am

Isn't there a button in custom management settings that allows to change the graphics white level in nits?
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Re: 'White' text is grey in a Colormanaged environment?

PostThu May 12, 2022 12:51 pm

Sven H wrote:Isn't there a button in custom management settings that allows to change the graphics white level in nits?

I think it concerns media like psd, jpg and tiff and indicate where to "place" their white in the scope
But Fusion Title are generated (in the timeline colorspace) it doesn't apply
may be I'm wrong ....
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Re: 'White' text is grey in a Colormanaged environment?

PostThu May 12, 2022 12:56 pm

Olivier MATHIEU wrote:
Sven H wrote:Isn't there a button in custom management settings that allows to change the graphics white level in nits?

I think it concerns media like psd, jpg and tiff and indicate where to "place" their white in the scope
But Fusion Title are generated (in the timeline colorspace) it doesn't apply
may be I'm wrong ....
That's what I thought this feature was for. How should resolve know if a tiff is a graphic or some kind of footage? generated titles could be identified. Bzt I haven't tested this feature, so I don't know if it helps
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Re: 'White' text is grey in a Colormanaged environment?

PostThu May 12, 2022 1:14 pm

Sven H wrote: How should resolve know if a tiff is a graphic or some kind of footage? generated titles could be identified.

Good Question .. need more investigation and testing ;)
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Re: 'White' text is grey in a Colormanaged environment?

PostThu May 12, 2022 2:34 pm

Sven H wrote:
Olivier MATHIEU wrote:
Sven H wrote:Isn't there a button in custom management settings that allows to change the graphics white level in nits?

I think it concerns media like psd, jpg and tiff and indicate where to "place" their white in the scope
But Fusion Title are generated (in the timeline colorspace) it doesn't apply
may be I'm wrong ....
That's what I thought this feature was for. How should resolve know if a tiff is a graphic or some kind of footage? generated titles could be identified. Bzt I haven't tested this feature, so I don't know if it helps
So I've just tested. the Graphics White Level slider mostly affects subtitles (makes sense that in hdr subs should NOT fire at 1000nits).

It does also affect normal titles elements, but titles-white is not the same as subtitle-white.. so graphics white level set to 100nits results in subtitles being at 100nits, text-titles at ~500-ish..

Fusion titles on the other hand are a whole new chapter. Maybe working in fusion color management internally might help with that.
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Re: 'White' text is grey in a Colormanaged environment?

PostFri Nov 11, 2022 11:35 am

Resolve 18.1 states to improve the handling of Text+ in RCM with DaVinci Wide Gamut. Anyone here up for doing some tests?
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Re: 'White' text is grey in a Colormanaged environment?

PostMon Nov 14, 2022 7:45 am

Sven H wrote:Resolve 18.1 states to improve the handling of Text+ in RCM with DaVinci Wide Gamut. Anyone here up for doing some tests?

From what I've quickly tested .... With Davinci WideGamut Timeline ColorSpace ...
.. In the EDIT page
"Basic text" acts as "graphic". This means Value(brightness) of 1.0 is mapped to Project setting ➧ ColorMangement ➧ Graphic White Level
"Text+" in other hand, its Value(brightness) of 1.0 is mapped to 100 nits and it's linear
so if you want 200 nits , you need a Value of 2.0 ... and so on
... in the FUSION page
"Text+" act like one EDIT page


Then it is colormanaged from Timeline Colorspace to the output Colorsplace
hope this helps
Last edited by Olivier MATHIEU on Fri Nov 18, 2022 7:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 'White' text is grey in a Colormanaged environment?

PostMon Nov 14, 2022 12:58 pm

I see no difference with Text+ in RCM projects with 18.1 (as compared to 18.0.4). White text still appears grey when timeline color space is set to DWG intermediate. Would love to know what improvement BMD was talking about in the release notes for 18.1.
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Re: 'White' text is grey in a Colormanaged environment?

PostMon Nov 14, 2022 1:18 pm

Steve Alexander wrote:Would love to know what improvement BMD was talking about in the release notes for 18.1.

+1
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Re: 'White' text is grey in a Colormanaged environment?

PostFri Nov 18, 2022 3:02 am

Hi Steve and Olivier,

Could you please try out the behaviour in a new project created in 18.1?

Regards,
Vivek
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Re: 'White' text is grey in a Colormanaged environment?

PostFri Nov 18, 2022 3:42 am

Here I am seeing white text+ is NOW actually white in Color-managed environment.
Created several new projects and compared Text+ created/viewed in both the Edit page and Fusion page and even checked exports.

Well done BMD!!

cm1.jpg
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Re: 'White' text is grey in a Colormanaged environment?

PostFri Nov 18, 2022 7:47 am

VivekVedagiri wrote:Hi Steve and Olivier,

Could you please try out the behaviour in a new project created in 18.1?

Regards,
Vivek

hello Vivek
What I have described is in a new project in Resolve 18.1 ... What's wrong about it ?
Fun thing If you ALSO put a value of 2.0 in the Alpha channel of the text+ ... the brightness jump to 1000 nits !!
What's the logic ?
Thanks
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Re: 'White' text is grey in a Colormanaged environment?

PostFri Nov 18, 2022 12:26 pm

I'll need to remember to test a new project in 18.1. I would also like to know what exactly BMD developers did to effect this change? Is it a fudge factor on specifically text+ or did they correct any other colors loaded in the Fusion page? For example, if I create a white background node in the fusion page and link it to the mediaOut, does it appear white on the edit page?
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Re: 'White' text is grey in a Colormanaged environment?

PostFri Nov 18, 2022 1:32 pm

Steve Alexander wrote:I'll need to remember to test a new project in 18.1. I would also like to know what exactly BMD developers did to effect this change? Is it a fudge factor on specifically text+ or did they correct any other colors loaded in the Fusion page? For example, if I create a white background node in the fusion page and link it to the mediaOut, does it appear white on the edit page?


Same test project :
Timeline ColorSpace : DWG/DV Intermediate (Fusion ColorSpace is DWG Linear)
Output ColorSpace : P3-D65 ST2084 1000 nits

Background in fusion
Value 0.5 for R, G,B ➧ 50 nits
Value 1 for R, G,B ➧ 100 nits
Value 2 for R, G,B ➧ 200 nits

For me it works like Text+
My guess is Fusion generator Nodes are treated as SDR. It was created to work in Rec709 (Gamut) Linear.

Any other ideas ?
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Re: 'White' text is grey in a Colormanaged environment?

PostFri Nov 18, 2022 1:57 pm

I tried a new project in 18.1. My RCM settings are for DWG intermediate (timeline) and Rec709 Gamma 2.4 output. With these settings, the Title+ titles do indeed look white and a white background in Fusion looks the same as the white text in the Text+ when viewed back on the edit page.

However, if I use the color picker on the edit page to select a different color for the text+ text, the resulting text color is always brighter than that of the picked color and I have to use an HSL adjustment in the color tool to bring the luminance down to visually match.

If I edit the text+ fusion comp and drag the same sample color into that comp and use the color picker to match the same color, it works correctly and then looks perfect back in the edit page.

So at least for a Rec709 gamma 2.4 output, there has been a huge improvement to Fusion in an RCM project where DWG intermediate is used as the timeline color space.

Update: I repeated the color-picker test on my Windows 11 PC (see signature) and found that the picked color was brighter than the same even within Fusion when using the color picker within the color swatch dialog, however, if I use the color picker eyedropper in Fusion (beside the swatch in the Text+ inspector) I get an exact match just as with the MacBook- so behavior is different between my MacBook and Windows PC), but the difference may have to do with the color space assumption of the color picker in Fusion - my mind is bending, lol.
Last edited by Steve Alexander on Fri Nov 18, 2022 7:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 'White' text is grey in a Colormanaged environment?

PostFri Nov 18, 2022 2:38 pm

I dropped a new Text+ over a clip using the following settings.

SDR Grading.png
SDR Grading.png (20.32 KiB) Viewed 1380 times


Went into Fusion to change the text.

Came back to Edit, text was still white.

Studio 18.1 on Windows 10.
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Re: 'White' text is grey in a Colormanaged environment?

PostFri Nov 18, 2022 2:42 pm

@Jim - how did the same test behave in 18.0.4?
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Re: 'White' text is grey in a Colormanaged environment?

PostSat Nov 19, 2022 4:58 am

Steve Alexander wrote:- my mind is bending, lol.


I see the same as you here.
Colors are brighter in DWG intermediate.
Until they're not.
Not sure 'what is when' re: export/edit/fusion etc
Must be hidden code lol.
Someone tell me please. :lol:

Whites are white - and apparently the same luminance. :geek:
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Re: 'White' text is grey in a Colormanaged environment?

PostSat Nov 19, 2022 5:27 am

Jim Simon wrote:I dropped a new Text+ over a clip using the following settings...


Yea, it's DaVinci Wide Gamut Intermediate where the problems have existed.
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Re: 'White' text is grey in a Colormanaged environment?

PostSat Nov 19, 2022 11:08 am

The problem was never exclusive to DWG/Intermediate. It is an issue with the way color management treats Fusion comps (both RCM and ACES) with the assumed linear working space of the chosen timeline color space. When the timeline space is display referred like the SDR presets or just any handpicked SDR display space there is no issue. When the timeline working space is "HDR" log encoded the linearized fusion part is treated as linear of that log encoding meaning 1.0 float isn't display white anymore and the primaries also start to play a role.

I also don't understand how some are claiming that it is fixed now though. I'm running 18.1 and the issue persists when picking any log timeline working space. Am I missing something?
2022-11-19 11_54_57-Window.png
2022-11-19 11_54_57-Window.png (666.16 KiB) Viewed 1285 times

And to be fair, there shouldn't be a 'fix'. We simply need an option to truly bypass color management for fusion comps because we don't always want the 'fixed' behavior. Or maybe even better, an option to assign an input color space for the comp manually.
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Re: 'White' text is grey in a Colormanaged environment?

PostSat Nov 19, 2022 12:17 pm

Shebbe, try DWG intermediate as your timeline space. Do you still get the grey text? Also, this must be in a new project. Existing projects don't seem to work.

I would like to know technically what BMD developers did to 'fix' this. For me, the Fusion titles now look white (same as basic titles), but I'm not confident that whatever they did to 'fix' this won't have negative consequences down the road.

Add - the fix posted by VFXStudy no longer works and without knowing what the developers did, we are in the dark as to what additional tweaking may be required.
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Re: 'White' text is grey in a Colormanaged environment?

PostSat Nov 19, 2022 1:58 pm

Steve Alexander wrote:@Jim - how did the same test behave in 18.0.4?
Not sure which version I last tested this.
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Re: 'White' text is grey in a Colormanaged environment?

PostSat Nov 19, 2022 2:07 pm

shebbe wrote: I'm running 18.1 and the issue persists when picking any log timeline working space.
Yup. If I choose the HDR preset for timeline, the title is grey. :(
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Re: 'White' text is grey in a Colormanaged environment?

PostSat Nov 19, 2022 2:10 pm

Steve Alexander wrote:Also, this must be in a new project. Existing projects don't seem to work.
Aha, that was the missing link. Thanks. It looks like it's not fixed yet though. 1.0 white does map to display white now but the data is still treated as something else making any other color off from display values. I still think my proposed solution to give users control over which fusion data is in which color space is the appropriate way to handle this.
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Re: 'White' text is grey in a Colormanaged environment?

PostSat Nov 19, 2022 2:19 pm

Jim Simon wrote:
shebbe wrote: I'm running 18.1 and the issue persists when picking any log timeline working space.
Yup. If I choose the HDR preset for timeline, the title is grey. :(

Not seeing this. I'm testing on my PC (below) with a new project created in 18.1.

I'll try a fresh new project with the standard HDR setting (I usually use DWG intermedate)...
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Re: 'White' text is grey in a Colormanaged environment?

PostSat Nov 19, 2022 2:20 pm

New project in 18.1 Library, HDR Timeline, HDR Output...title is grey.

SDR Output, title is white.
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Re: 'White' text is grey in a Colormanaged environment?

PostSat Nov 19, 2022 2:35 pm

Here's a still image of what I am seeing on my PC (I saw the same on my Mac):

RCM_HDR_to_Rec709_24.jpg
RCM_HDR_to_Rec709_24.jpg (156.77 KiB) Viewed 1223 times


Output color space Rec709 Gamma 2.4
Time Traveller
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Re: 'White' text is grey in a Colormanaged environment?

PostSat Nov 19, 2022 3:07 pm

shebbe wrote:
Steve Alexander wrote:Also, this must be in a new project. Existing projects don't seem to work.
Aha, that was the missing link. Thanks. It looks like it's not fixed yet though. 1.0 white does map to display white now but the data is still treated as something else making any other color off from display values. I still think my proposed solution to give users control over which fusion data is in which color space is the appropriate way to handle this.

I agree that something is not quite right, here, which is why I advocate for a technical explanation of what exactly is happening in the pipeline now. I find the new behavior is much improved and will probably make most casual users happy, but the slight inconsistencies could be a deal breaker without giving us more control as you suggest.
Time Traveller
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Olivier MATHIEU

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Re: 'White' text is grey in a Colormanaged environment?

PostSat Nov 19, 2022 10:50 pm

Jim Simon wrote:New project in 18.1 Library, HDR Timeline, HDR Output...title is grey.

SDR Output, title is white.

Are you viewing your HDR output on HDR monitor ?
Viewer isn't HDR
What is the nits level in scopes ?
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Re: 'White' text is grey in a Colormanaged environment?

PostSun Nov 20, 2022 11:47 am

From some testing I just did, it looks to me like normal text elements are controlled by the project wide color management setting. "Graphics white level" defines their peak brightness.

Text+ Elements on the other hand are depended on the linear RGB value inside of Fusion. Because it's a linear environment you can use a gain controller to boost them to the desired nit level. As Shebbe already said 1.0 is equivalent to 100nits. 2.0 means 200nits and so on.

Graphics White Level is set at 200nits in a new project, and therefore appears brighter than Text+ by default, since those come in at a value of 1.0 (aka 100 nits) by default.

Also note that the scaling of Text+ brightness is dependend on the checkbox "Use 203 nits reference for Rec.2100 HDR"

On a SDR output higher nit values get mapped down to the maximum of 100 nits through the DRT. On HDR on the other hand text can be preciselly mapped to whatever nit value you want with the methods above.
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Re: 'White' text is grey in a Colormanaged environment?

PostSun Nov 20, 2022 1:40 pm

Sven H wrote:From some testing I just did, it looks to me like normal text elements are controlled by the project wide color management setting. "Graphics white level" defines their peak brightness.

Text+ Elements on the other hand are depended on the linear RGB value inside of Fusion. Because it's a linear environment you can use a gain controller to boost them to the desired nit level. As Shebbe already said 1.0 is equivalent to 100nits. 2.0 means 200nits and so on.

Graphics White Level is set at 200nits in a new project, and therefore appears brighter than Text+ by default, since those come in at a value of 1.0 (aka 100 nits) by default.

Also note that the scaling of Text+ brightness is dependend on the checkbox "Use 203 nits reference for Rec.2100 HDR"

On a SDR output higher nit values get mapped down to the maximum of 100 nits through the DRT. On HDR on the other hand text can be preciselly mapped to whatever nit value you want with the methods above.

totally agree
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Re: 'White' text is grey in a Colormanaged environment?

PostSun Nov 20, 2022 3:15 pm

Olivier MATHIEU wrote:Are you viewing your HDR output on HDR monitor?
Yes.
Last edited by Jim Simon on Sun Nov 20, 2022 3:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 'White' text is grey in a Colormanaged environment?

PostSun Nov 20, 2022 3:17 pm

Olivier MATHIEU wrote:What is the nits level in scopes ?
100
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Olivier MATHIEU

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Re: 'White' text is grey in a Colormanaged environment?

PostSun Nov 20, 2022 8:14 pm

Jim Simon wrote:
Olivier MATHIEU wrote:What is the nits level in scopes ?
100

There is something I don't understand ... Is the 100 nits that you called "grey" ?

May be there is a misunderstood about what to call "White" ...in the first place
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Re: 'White' text is grey in a Colormanaged environment?

PostSun Nov 20, 2022 9:26 pm

Olivier MATHIEU wrote:Is the 100 nits that you called "grey" ?
I would not expect it to be.
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Re: 'White' text is grey in a Colormanaged environment?

PostMon Nov 21, 2022 3:48 am

Jim Simon wrote:
Olivier MATHIEU wrote:Is the 100 nits that you called "grey" ?
I would not expect it to be.

Okay
Can you be more specific of you would expect
Many thanks
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