Artifacts when using the color page - Help!

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Enduhh

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Artifacts when using the color page - Help!

PostSat Oct 16, 2021 10:58 am

Hello, I am having trouble with a serious amount of artifacting when keying out images with the color page. (I know you can key in fusion but I found the color page easier, also I am having trouble with segments that did not include and color-page-keyed images). Basically, I am editing together manga pages into a sort-of music video. However, two segments with a lot of keyed assets have an insane amount artifacting going on and I have no idea how to fix it.

I think is it best explained visually: https://i.gyazo.com/b2112f0ab67219ee5d4 ... 321d85.mp4
As you can see in this screen recording, I am letting the project play in the preview window and then pausing it. When playing, none of the artifacts are present and it looks all good, however, as soon as I pause, all of these artifacts appear, and this is how the project looks rendered as well (and yes I tried a ton of different codecs and formats, it's all the same).
Here is the rendered version of this segment, which also exhibits another random artifact that appears 4 seconds in during a cut with a still and un-keyed image:

Some other information:
-All of these images are jpgs
-I'd like to find a solution that does not involve me losing hours of keying and keyframing

Thanks!
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Peter Chamberlain

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Re: Artifacts when using the color page - Help!

PostSun Oct 17, 2021 5:53 am

Try turning off, performance mode in preferences, user, playback settings
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Enduhh

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Re: Artifacts when using the color page - Help!

PostSun Oct 17, 2021 10:43 pm

Peter Chamberlain wrote:Try turning off, performance mode in preferences, user, playback settings


This just made the artifacts present during preview playback as well.
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Peter Chamberlain

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Re: Artifacts when using the color page - Help!

PostMon Oct 18, 2021 1:05 am

That suggests a GPU or GPU driver info.. you will need to provide details of your OS and system as per the faqs.
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Enduhh

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Re: Artifacts when using the color page - Help!

PostMon Oct 18, 2021 5:22 am

Peter Chamberlain wrote:That suggests a GPU or GPU driver info.. you will need to provide details of your OS and system as per the faqs.


Windows 10 64-bit
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DaVinci Resolve version 17.3.2 build 8

Attached is a zip file with my system info files.
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sys info 10.17.2021.zip
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Enduhh

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Re: Artifacts when using the color page - Help!

PostWed Oct 27, 2021 7:36 am

Peter Chamberlain wrote:That suggests a GPU or GPU driver info.. you will need to provide details of your OS and system as per the faqs.


Is what I provided in my reply above suffient?
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Peter Chamberlain

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Re: Artifacts when using the color page - Help!

PostThu Oct 28, 2021 7:57 am

Can u also provide the diagnostic logs fro Resolves help menu?
the full zip
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Enduhh

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Re: Artifacts when using the color page - Help!

PostFri Oct 29, 2021 7:02 am

Peter Chamberlain wrote:Can u also provide the diagnostic logs fro Resolves help menu?
the full zip

Here you go!
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Enduhh

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Re: Artifacts when using the color page - Help!

PostFri Nov 12, 2021 11:07 pm

Peter Chamberlain wrote:Can u also provide the diagnostic logs fro Resolves help menu?
the full zip

Did that help at all?
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Enduhh

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Re: Artifacts when using the color page - Help!

PostSat Nov 20, 2021 1:41 am

Here's an exported project archive that only contains the media that displays the artifacts.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1voxGA2fu4sn3CbfMKoKSuMhkeUgYjoDR/view?usp=sharing
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Re: Artifacts when using the color page - Help!

PostSat Nov 20, 2021 1:51 am

Enduhh wrote:Hello, I am having trouble with a serious amount of artifacting when keying out images with the color page. (I know you can key in fusion but I found the color page easier, also I am having trouble with segments that did not include and color-page-keyed images). Basically, I am editing together manga pages into a sort-of music video. However, two segments with a lot of keyed assets have an insane amount artifacting going on and I have no idea how to fix it. All of these images are jpgs...

Unfortunately, JPGs are very bad as source material, because they tend to create artifacts due to their high compression. Ideally, you'd use uncompressed TIFFs, DPX files, or PNGs, which won't exhibit this kind of problem if they're made directly from the original image.

Workflow is tough, and it always starts with the original image source. You might be able to reduce the artifacts if you a) didn't push the images so hard with keys, b) if you used very careful image blurring on edges, and c) if you tried a little NR when necessary. But JPGs are tough, particularly when you run into "stair-stepping" and other problems relating to the compression.

Heavily-compressed file formats are bad for post. There are some lightly-compressed file formats that can work, like DNxHD, DNxHR, and most forms of ProRes.
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Dwaine Maggart

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Re: Artifacts when using the color page - Help!

PostSat Nov 20, 2021 2:35 am

In the Project Settings - Image Scaling area, set the Resize Filter to Bilinear.

Looks like that should clean up most of the stop artifacts.
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Re: Artifacts when using the color page - Help!

PostSat Nov 20, 2021 9:33 am

Marc Wielage wrote:Unfortunately, JPGs are very bad as source material, because they tend to create artifacts due to their high compression.

Heavily-compressed file formats are bad for post. There are some lightly-compressed file formats that can work, like DNxHD, DNxHR, and most forms of ProRes.

While in general true, jpeg has different compression levels (including lossless) so there is no clear separation that jpeg bad, prores good. Prores and DNx use basically the same compression schema as jpeg so if jpeg is bad, so are they. 10bit vs 8bit makes little difference if image originates as 8bit to start with.
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Enduhh

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Re: Artifacts when using the color page - Help!

PostThu Nov 25, 2021 10:58 am

Dwaine Maggart wrote:In the Project Settings - Image Scaling area, set the Resize Filter to Bilinear.

Looks like that should clean up most of the stop artifacts.


This cleaned up all the artifacts from appearing in the preview when paused, but had no effect on the rendered project.
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Re: Artifacts when using the color page - Help!

PostThu Nov 25, 2021 12:40 pm

It seems all elements are static images...why don't you make the transparency in Photoshop, export as transparent PNG? I won't go into using compressed jpegs on halftone at this time. :mrgreen:
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Re: Artifacts when using the color page - Help!

PostFri Nov 26, 2021 4:58 am

Mario Kalogjera wrote:It seems all elements are static images...why don't you make the transparency in Photoshop, export as transparent PNG? I won't go into using compressed jpegs on halftone at this time. :mrgreen:

Yeah, that's the current workaround I found.

It just is a major pain to go back and redo all these detailed parts like this (which I wanted to avoid), especially when the color page's keying was so convenient and less messy to use instead of having to add a ton of tiny assets to the media pool.

Hopefully this gets fixed/I find a fix for next time I want to do something similar.
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Re: Artifacts when using the color page - Help!

PostFri Jun 24, 2022 9:51 am

Mario Kalogjera wrote:It seems all elements are static images...why don't you make the transparency in Photoshop, export as transparent PNG? I won't go into using compressed jpegs on halftone at this time. :mrgreen:


Update: I stopped working on this project for a while but over the last few days I finished it.

The png fix worked most of the time but now with my final draft, I have about 5 different instances of sections which only use PNGs having the rendering artifacts.

I have no idea what to do now to fix it.
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Re: Artifacts when using the color page - Help!

PostFri Jun 24, 2022 11:08 am

Try TIFFs instead.
No, an iGPU is not enough, and you can't use HEVC 10 bit 4:2:2 in the free version.

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Enduhh

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Re: Artifacts when using the color page - Help!

PostSun Jun 26, 2022 2:03 am

Uli Plank wrote:Try TIFFs instead.


This only worked for about half of the rendering errors oddly enough.

However, this did lead me down the path for fixing the rest of them, so I thank you for that.

Some pngs (or original jpgs), once converted to tiffs, would either corrupt horribly or still not fix the rendering artifacts.

What I did for these was take a screenshot with win+S on my 1440p monitor (to maintain the highest quality) of the original image to create a file that was entirely new.

Using this new screenshot and replacing the old clip, the artifacts were gone.

Another interesting observation: I tried rendering out the full video, then reimporting it back into a new project to manually cover up any artifacts. However, to my surprise, the rendering artifacts did not appear in the preview window, even though they did on youtube, vlc, movie maker, etc. Once I rerendered they would be back of course though.


Anyways, TLDR,
I guess the final takeaway is that the issue was that some of the files were corrupted or encoded in a way only davinci resolve does not like.

Thanks for all the help!
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Enduhh

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Re: Artifacts when using the color page - Help!

PostSun Jun 26, 2022 11:28 am

Enduhh wrote:
Uli Plank wrote:Try TIFFs instead.


This only worked for about half of the rendering errors oddly enough.

However, this did lead me down the path for fixing the rest of them, so I thank you for that.

Some pngs (or original jpgs), once converted to tiffs, would either corrupt horribly or still not fix the rendering artifacts.

What I did for these was take a screenshot with win+S on my 1440p monitor (to maintain the highest quality) of the original image to create a file that was entirely new.

Using this new screenshot and replacing the old clip, the artifacts were gone.

Another interesting observation: I tried rendering out the full video, then reimporting it back into a new project to manually cover up any artifacts. However, to my surprise, the rendering artifacts did not appear in the preview window, even though they did on youtube, vlc, movie maker, etc. Once I rerendered they would be back of course though.


Anyways, TLDR,
I guess the final takeaway is that the issue was that some of the files were corrupted or encoded in a way only davinci resolve does not like.

Thanks for all the help!


Update: unfortunately this just stopped working.

I had to resort to downloading an entirely different editing software to manually cover up the artifacts.

This was very frustrating I hope it can get fixed in the future.
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Re: Artifacts when using the color page - Help!

PostSun Jun 26, 2022 1:50 pm

In general, I get this kind of fuzzy edges when I apply more than one edge blur operation, e.g.:

1. Edge blur given in the alpha of the image file itself (PSD, TIF, whatever)
2. Edge blur made on the Edit page, Inspector, in the clip's resize filter setting
3. Edge blur made on the Edit page, Inspector, Effects, Blur (gauss blur, zoom blur whatever)
4. Edge blur made on the Color page in a node (gauss blur, zoom blur whatever)
5. Edge blur made on the Color page in a window mask

In certain combinations of the above levels, it may occur that one blur at one level will "fight" against another blur at another level, and this "fight" generates artifacts that look a little bit like JPG artifacts (but they aren't). And these artifacts seem to depend on random integer roundings, e.g. move an object one pixel further, and the whole artifact will change its random appearance. Or change the zoom by 0.001 %, and the whole artifact will change. It's not a compression artifact. It seems there are certain threshold values in the mulit-level blur algorithm that decide whether a pixel at one blur layer gets completely transparent or not in relation to a pixel in an underlying blur layer.

E.g. when you crop a clip on the Edit page in the Inspector's Crop tools with a smooth crop blur, and then apply another blur on the Color page, say, with a zoom blur node, you will get two blur operations at at time that won't work well together. When the object is zooming, artifacts with very fine black/white lines will occur, similar to the ones in the video shown above. The zoom blur of the Color page destroys the crop blur of the Edit page. It may go well for 5 frames, then bad for the next 3 frames, then it's well again etc. it's just changing with zoom and position.

So when I apply blur effects on smoothly cropped objects, I don't do the smooth crop on the Edit page; I do everything with blur nodes on the Color page.

Same for resize with anti-alias blur: I don't do resize and smoothing on the Edit page; I do everything with size-transform node, mask node, and blur nodes on the Color page. Especially when working with very large source images.

Edit page and Color page: Two worlds. When it comes to blurring, they don't understand each other.
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Re: Artifacts when using the color page - Help!

PostSun Jun 26, 2022 5:53 pm

Bad implementation of filtering of elements with transparency is the problem here, discussed in many threads.
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Enduhh

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Re: Artifacts when using the color page - Help!

PostFri Aug 05, 2022 11:30 pm

Hardy- wrote:In general, I get this kind of fuzzy edges when I apply more than one edge blur operation, e.g.:

1. Edge blur given in the alpha of the image file itself (PSD, TIF, whatever)
2. Edge blur made on the Edit page, Inspector, in the clip's resize filter setting
3. Edge blur made on the Edit page, Inspector, Effects, Blur (gauss blur, zoom blur whatever)
4. Edge blur made on the Color page in a node (gauss blur, zoom blur whatever)
5. Edge blur made on the Color page in a window mask

In certain combinations of the above levels, it may occur that one blur at one level will "fight" against another blur at another level, and this "fight" generates artifacts that look a little bit like JPG artifacts (but they aren't). And these artifacts seem to depend on random integer roundings, e.g. move an object one pixel further, and the whole artifact will change its random appearance. Or change the zoom by 0.001 %, and the whole artifact will change. It's not a compression artifact. It seems there are certain threshold values in the mulit-level blur algorithm that decide whether a pixel at one blur layer gets completely transparent or not in relation to a pixel in an underlying blur layer.

E.g. when you crop a clip on the Edit page in the Inspector's Crop tools with a smooth crop blur, and then apply another blur on the Color page, say, with a zoom blur node, you will get two blur operations at at time that won't work well together. When the object is zooming, artifacts with very fine black/white lines will occur, similar to the ones in the video shown above. The zoom blur of the Color page destroys the crop blur of the Edit page. It may go well for 5 frames, then bad for the next 3 frames, then it's well again etc. it's just changing with zoom and position.

So when I apply blur effects on smoothly cropped objects, I don't do the smooth crop on the Edit page; I do everything with blur nodes on the Color page.

Same for resize with anti-alias blur: I don't do resize and smoothing on the Edit page; I do everything with size-transform node, mask node, and blur nodes on the Color page. Especially when working with very large source images.

Edit page and Color page: Two worlds. When it comes to blurring, they don't understand each other.


I also had artifacts appearing during segments when no cropping or blur effects were used though.

Also, I recently edited another quick thing where I rearranged scenes in a movie. The only things I did were splice clips and put them in another order, and some artifacts appeared at random times.
This was a single clip imported, with no transparency.
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Re: Artifacts when using the color page - Help!

PostTue Apr 25, 2023 5:41 am

Peter Chamberlain wrote:Try turning off, performance mode in preferences, user, playback settings


Completely unrelated, but you sir are a godsend.

Fixed an issue I have been having all day.

Thank you.

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