Surround sound in Fairlight 17

I had a long break in using Resolve (pandemic and my own illness related reasons), plus I've never really mastered Fairlight fully. For those reasons, when I started using DR17, I noticed two important differences in relation to DR16's Fairlight (there are certainly more, but I'm only discovering them now):

1. The use of Flex Busses in 17 (as opposed to Fixed ones in the Release 16)
2. Different handling of my Realtek system audio channels

While the idea of the change number 1 is easy to grasp, I'm lost as far as the second change is concerned. The difference already starts in the Resolve Preference settings; please take a look at the configuration panel for my Realtek system audio in the 5.1 mode:

Audio IO preferences in DR16.JPG (29.31 KiB) Viewed 2810 times

versus:

Audio IO preferences in DR17.JPG (33.19 KiB) Viewed 2810 times

As you can see, in spite of the 5.1 mode, in DR17 I only have access to the two stereo channels. The same is going on inside Fairlight itself; e.g. when patching I only have audio outputs 1 and 2.

Could someone please explain what the reason for this change is, and how to work around it? Unlike the change no. 1 mentioned earlier, this one's consequences are serious - not only do I feel lost when trying to add and route/output/monitor several linked stereo (usually made mono) tracks, or just a single track with a multi (usually 6) embedded channels, but my old projects built in earlier DR versions do not output to my Realtek 5.1 properly (only the FL and FR speakers are used - the FC, RL, RR and Sub monitors are mute !!!). I'd be really grateful for walking me though this; TIA

Piotr

Hi Piotr,

did you already try menu Fairlight->Bus Format -> 5.1 ?

Hi Piotr,

did you already try menu Fairlight->Bus Format -> 5.1 ?

Of course - with the same results..

Piotr

A success!

Realtek working.JPG (79.84 KiB) Viewed 2424 times

Piotr

Due to the massive changes in Fairlight 17 I had various issues making my v16 projects work. Especially more complex bus assignments did get messed up more or less.
However - I am using two 5.1 output devices, my AVR via HDMI and some "real" 5.1 headphones with their USB soundcard. If I remember correctly my devices where also not fully recognized but I was able to assign the missing channels by hand. After saving the prefs and re-starting resolve everything was fine.

Not sure if this helps...

In Piotr's case it was a Realtek driver issue.

In Piotr's case it was a Realtek driver issue.

Exactly - and were it not for Reynaud and our enlightening (for me, of course) PM conversation, my problem would probably last a bit longer. Reynaud definitely pointed to a "driver issue", so I uninstalled the Realtek driver (which I had downloaded back in 2019 from my MSI motherboard maker's site - right after having completed building my PC), installed the same one again - and voila! All is working fine, just as it used to with Resolve version 15 through 16. Have no idea why my first installation of DR 17 has driven things south... Anyway - thanks Reynaud !

Piotr

PS. As the MSI version of their Realtek driver hasn't changed for 3 years, I had been slightly reluctant to re-install it, so in the meantime downloaded the newest driver from the Realtek own site. Their pages are a little too easy for one to get lost there, and I ended up with a driver whose version was much higher of course (some 10.x.x.x) - but it proved to an Ethernet audio version (nothing like this present in the installer executable name - so BEWARE other Realtek users). Luckily enough - once it obviously failed to find a right device in my system - the installation process rolled back gracefully, so no mess was introduced Anyway: it seems MSI believes in the "if it works well don't change it" policy - their 2019 driver version 6.0.1.8619 still works great with Resolve 17, the only hiccup being spoiling it by the very first DR17 install. Once a new Resolve version emerges, I wonder whether or not this will happen again...

Dear Reynaud at al

Just to let you know that I have just finished audio editing in Fairlight with Desktop Video (i.e. HDMI out of my Decklink card - the same HDMI cable I use for picture monitoring). While it's possible with my speaker system (https://www.amazon.com/Logitech-THX-Cer ... 6RK7GXCRHQ) - it will never give the same flexibility as using Realtek 5.1 with the discreet analogue cables running straight to the Logitech control unit's inputs, working in Direct mode. The HDMI signal uses ARC to route all HDMI-embedded audio channels back to my Samsung HDTV's optical output; I can set this output as PCM, Bitstream, or some DSPed mode (like Dolby Movie or Music, DTS Movie or Music, etc.) - and then output one of those formats to the speakers (with the Logitech in the "Optical In" mode) - alas, I cannot output any channel I want separately, as is possible in the abovementioned "Direct" mode. BTW - also in this scenario, I'm not limited to the 6 separate channels of analogue sound as the central unit can also output in Stereo, Dolby, or DTC Movie/DTS Music as it has DSP of its own!

So as you can see - the advantage of using my Realtek chip over HDMI is that with the latter, I must decide up-front which format my movie's audio is gonna be, and mix it with all available so that the listener can pick one while watching my ready film. With the former, on the other hand - I can mix my Surround Sound once for all the available DSP modes.

But yes - it can be done with HDMI; now the time has come for me to test ASIO drivers I'm expecting it to be more like Desktop Video/HDMI than Direct mode of Realtek)... Cheers,

Piotr

PS. Of course, for watching ready movies on abt TV channel or streaming services like Netflix and alike, using ARC for driving this marvelous Logitech system is always the most straight-forward option.

Thank you for the confirmation Piotr. Pleased both options are available and working on your system.

So as you can see - the advantage of using my Realtek chip over HDMI is that with the latter, I must decide up-front which format my movie's audio is gonna be, and mix it with all available so that the listener can pick one while watching my ready film. With the former, on the other hand - I can mix my Surround Sound once for all the available DSP modes.

Can you explain the above a bit better?

It seems to me that if you want to mix in surround and the "latter" ("HDMI"?) you can choose surround as the format and mix in it or in stereo. In stereo you would simply route internally in Resolve to only access L/R within the 5.1 output for your stereo mix.

Or to put it differently: Is it not possible for you to separate the monitoring chain's setup and your mix-chain setup?

Thank you for the confirmation Piotr. Pleased both options are available and working on your system.

And I thank you for encouraging me to try and test, Reynaud

Also regarding the ASIO drivers: I didn't try them yet, but suppose it will work with the same flexibility as my current system (with the Realtek driver and Logitech speaker system). Therefore - please tell me if there is any practical reason for me to switch to ASIO? I'm not a sound engineer by any means, but hear ASIO can do better with stacked and CPU-intensive audio FXes - is it true? What other advantages of the ASIO drivers are? Of course I realize Realtek is just a prosumer stuff, while ASIO are used by pros - why?

Piotr

So as you can see - the advantage of using my Realtek chip over HDMI is that with the latter, I must decide up-front which format my movie's audio is gonna be, and mix it with all available so that the listener can pick one while watching my ready film. With the former, on the other hand - I can mix my Surround Sound once for all the available DSP modes.

Can you explain the above a bit better?

It seems to me that if you want to mix in surround and the "latter" ("HDMI"?) you can choose surround as the format and mix in it or in stereo. In stereo you would simply route internally in Resolve to only access L/R within the 5.1 output for your stereo mix.

Or to put it differently: Is it not possible for you to separate the monitoring chain's setup and your mix-chain setup?

Hi Mattias - sorry if my explanation is not precise enough. Please take my word for it - I never came across a workflow which would pose a problem with this system. Also, pls keep in mind that I was summarized 3 various sets of components here:

- the MSI version of the Realtek 7.1 audio chip (a chip whose various versions can be found in many gaming and prosumer motherboards)

- the totally separate, THX-approved, Logitech Z-5500 audio hardware (also prosumer; gamers (which I'm not) love it!)

- why I find working with the above 2 items (even if only prosumer) much more flexible than setting Fairlight to the BMD Desktop Video (= Decklink 4k Extreme 12G with mezzanine HDMI board + a HDMI 2.x cable, enabling it to monitor both video and audio)

Cheers

Piotr

Ok, I just didn't understand what the problem was using the HDMI output instead of what I guess is the Realtek to Logitec path.

When I work I have a monitoring path that is 5.1 wide, and if I mix in stereo that path is still used for monitoring. My mix output is basically left/right going into channels 1 and 2 of that 5.1 monitoring path. My default channel layout is LRC,LFE,LsRs, so 1/2 corresponds to L/R.

So that's why I was wondering why you felt you needed to switch something when working in something other than 5.1 when using the HDMI output. I just didn't understand exactly what the problem was (I still don't). Not saying the way you're working now is wrong or anything.

I realize Realtek is just a prosumer stuff, while ASIO are used by pros why?

ASIO provides lower latency and higher data throughput since it bypasses the Windows audio stack. It is extensible since it is not limited to a fixed number of input and output channels nor is a limitation imposed on sample rate or format. But, ASIO performance and stability is largely dependent on the audio hardware manufacturer's driver.

Ok, I just didn't understand what the problem was using the HDMI output instead of what I guess is the Realtek to Logitec path.

When I work I have a monitoring path that is 5.1 wide, and if I mix in stereo that path is still used for monitoring. My mix output is basically left/right going into channels 1 and 2 of that 5.1 monitoring path. My default channel layout is LRC,LFE,LsRs, so 1/2 corresponds to L/R.

So that's why I was wondering why you felt you needed to switch something when working in something other than 5.1 when using the HDMI output. I just didn't understand exactly what the problem was (I still don't). Not saying the way you're working now is wrong or anything.

Hi Mattias

I'd likę to give you a good and convincing example of a situation where the ability to output directly and without using any special DSP format is more convenient for me - so please give me some time. Have just received the 3rd Covid shot, have almost 39C am a bit tired; also I have only just configured sound with HDMI and didn't have an opportunity yet to give it a try inside Fairlight...

Piotr

PS. Just to let you know that I returned to my previous settings in Resolve preferences (i.e. using System Audio).

No worries Piotr. Good for you that you got the shot. Judging from your post you should definitely get some rest!

Most definitely...

OK - after several hour of good sleep, Mattias - I'm in a shape good enough to answer you as follows:
the reason why I prefer using my computer sound card separate channels output over HDMI-output from my Decklink has absolutely nothing to do with what you can do with either, mixing your sound in Fairlight. You can use absolutely the same editing workflows with both configurations.

The difference starts with the output from Fairlight.... In my case, I'm limited to my HDTV ARC output via an optical cable, which my Logitech system cannot play in the Direct mode, which it can do with any or all 5.1 channels from Realtek. As the simplest example that comes to my mind: using Realtek/System Settings for Audio, I can output and manipulate a single channel precisely to the speaker it's intended to be in a given moment; with Desktop Video (Decklink/HDMI), I can only be precise down to a pair of speakers (with the optical ARC feed, Stereo is the minimum (simplest) form of output from my Logitech system). Of course it's not a deal-breaker by any means; after all - at the finishing stage - you will encode to one (or several) industry standards in Delivery page, but I personally find mixing 3D effects much more fun with Realtek than with Desktop Video... But that's just me

So as you can see - the "limitations" I mentioned are only related to the specific hardware one is using, and may not apply to you or other Fairlight users having access to a more advanced, professional speaker systems... Cheers,

Piotr

As the simplest example that comes to my mind: using Realtek/System Settings for Audio, I can output and manipulate a single channel precisely to the speaker it's intended to be in a given moment; with Desktop Video (Decklink/HDMI), I can only be precise down to a pair of speakers (with the optical ARC feed, Stereo is the minimum (simplest) form of output from my Logitech system).

I still don't understand what you mean.

To me "output and manipulate a single channel" is either done in the mixer (Fairlight) or to correct room issues which would be after the mixer. If it's done in the mixer then as long as the final output of the mixer is at least 5.1 there shouldn't be a difference at all between the two scenarios.

I guess I don't get what you mean by "Stereo is the minimum". Are you saying you can only work with stereo using one setup? If so I get it.

I know this thread is 2 years old, but I found it when searching for solutions to mix surround sound on a Mac with Fairlight.

Piotr, I see that you also used a Z-5500, as do I. I have an ESI Gigaport eX 8-output (all of them RCA plugs) with 6 channels going into the 6 direct inputs of the Z-5500 controller.

I am in the process of replacing the Logitech satellites with JBL Control One speakers. The Front L/R, I already replaced, and the sound difference is a noticeable step up. 3 more Control Ones (as Rear L/R and Center) are arriving next week.

Because the Z-5500's built-in amp was probably fine-tuned to its own satellites, my plan was, to use the excellent Marantz NR 1608 7.1 Receiver, which I am being offered at a great price on eBay, to drive the 5 JBLs, but it just occurred to me that while it has 8 analog speaker outputs, it has no direct speaker inputs like the Z-5500 has.

So, I asked myself, whether I could use an HDMI adapter to drive the Marantz amp and JBLs, and still have control over every single speaker in software like Fairlight or Logic Pro, like I have with the Gigaport eX. A few searches later, I found this discussion here.

My question is: can I use an HDMI adapter in lieu of the Gigaport eX, and still take advantage of all the surround sound controls in apps like Fairlight and Logic Pro that I get from a multi-channel analog interface?

What are the caveats of using HDMI?

For example, when listening to Apple Music, will I still get Spatial Audio from an HDMI output?
While the Z-5500 can generate a fake 5.1 effect from a stereo signal, the Marantz NR 1608 also has special FX modes that can produce a similar effect, I think.

Or maybe, the Z-5500 is fine, to drive the JBLs, and I don't really need to spend extra money on the Marantz? Surely, its amplifiers are of a higher quality than the Z-5500, but the Z-5500 sound pretty great as it is, especially when connected to the JBLs.

Any advice, Piotr (or anyone)?

Till,

Even though I tend to consider myself being sort of a perfectionist, I would spend any spare money on improving the sound equipment in my listening/contemplating room and leave the Logitech connected to my edit workstation. Of course it's perfectly possible that your demands on sound quality exceed mine, or you're using your editing studio as "2in1" (i.e. for listening to music or movie sound as well as editing).

Anyway - the combination of my edit studio acoustics with the output of my 5.1 Logitech is good enough for my editing needs, and I will only upgrade if any of the speakers starts wearing off.

Cheers

Piotr

Hi Piotr,

thanks for your feedback/comments!

I have since replaced all 5 Logitech satellites with JBL Ones and must say that I am totally happy with the upgrade in sound quality...buying them used, they cost me under €200 in total, which made me think that anyone interested in such a solution can pick up just the Logitech controller (often found for around $50-75) and a set of 5 speakers, for a very good-sounding surround system, all for under $300.

Maybe, at some point, I'll add two more, to max out the Gigaport eX's 8 analog channels and to be theoretically able to mix to 7.1 (or maybe even ATMOS?), but tbh, I have yet to even mix for 5.1 with it. It's more of a "what if I need to" kind of setup, at this point.

But I do use it to engulf/entrench myself in surround music, as I spend so much time on my workstation, that I also use it as a place of contemplation/meditation. My bread & butter is web development/design, and design can be like playing chess, where I often just stare at the screen(s) for an hour, parsing through a dozen or more possible paths toward achieving my goals, without actually touching the mouse or doing anything in reality...so a chill surround soundscape can be a nice space to be in while doing nothing but running the CPU/GPU in my head at 100%.

One of these days, maybe, I'll carve out the time to test how actually mixing in surround with Fairlight or Logic Pro would work. But just knowing that I could gives me a warm feeling.

Thanks again for sharing your experience(s) with all of this!

Cheers to you,
Till

..., my AVR via HDMI...

Not sure whether you are still monitoring this thread, but it seems like you might be able to answer my other part of the question, whether it is possible to use an HDMI adapter as a surround soundcard (with some sort of a DAC, like the Marantz surround amp I was considering, then), and if so, whether one would still have distinct control of the individual 5.1 (or 7.1) channels within Fairlight 17.

I am fine with the 8-channel analog Gigaport eX USB interface for now, but I'd still like to know whether it's possible, in theory.

Also absolutely possible in practice. Just route one of your screens through your AVR and activate the NVIDIA HD Audio with your speaker set-up.
The only downside is, that Windows (or NVIDIA) messes up the driver settings after updating the GPU driver, which forces the sound to go stand-by after some minutes (DVR doesn't like this).
To fix it, you have to re-set some parameters in the registry and it'll work until the next update.

Thanks, Michael, but I am on a Mac, and while I am currently using an analog 8-channel USB audio interface, I was wondering whether an HDMI adapter could also serve as a multi-channel soundcard in combination with an audio receiver, and if so, whether the individual channels could be configured in Fairlight as a 5.1/7.1/Atmos setup.

Also absolutely possible in practice. Just route one of your screens through your AVR and activate the NVIDIA HD Audio with your speaker set-up.
The only downside is, that Windows (or NVIDIA) messes up the driver settings after updating the GPU driver, which forces the sound to go stand-by after some minutes (DVR doesn't like this).
To fix it, you have to re-set some parameters in the registry and it'll work until the next update.

Confirmed

Piotr