Looking to buy a "new" editing machine - M1 or PC?

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markr041

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Re: Looking to buy a "new" editing machine - M1 or PC?

PostSun Jan 02, 2022 5:00 pm

OliverZ wrote:
markr041 wrote:I can easily edit GoPro 5.3K 60P H265 video clips right on the timeline

That's nice!
But is that really necessary? For editing on the timeline, an SD resolution is enough for me and then editing is just as fluid.
markr041 wrote:Render times are the least important aspect

Really?! So you don't care if you need 30 minutes or 20 hours to render the video? So not me :P
Not even if I'm "just" doing it as a hobby ...
Just so that's clear - because once again it seems like this is about Apple vs. PC:
I'm not saying that Apple is worse than a PC - a decent device with the appropriate hardware has its price. Only Apple seems to be a lot more expensive in comparison (at least here in AT).
It seems to me like "if you do video / image processing, then you just use an Apple" - why? "Well because you just use it"! Is there a real reason too? is that better / faster? Can I do more with it than with a Linux / Windows PC?
"Apple has always been used for video / image processing - everyone knows!"
Yes is OK ....


First, I agree with you that the resolution one uses to view clips is not important. Indeed, I use 1080 viewing resolution to process 12bit 8K RAW clips on my $899 MacMini. Then render at 8K.

Second, obviously, $899 is a lot LESS than any PC that can handle 8K RAW video, let alone smoothly edit H265 422 10bit clips. That Apple is more expensive is no longer true for editing video.

Third, I used a $2,000 gaming PC with a Nvidia graphics card and it completely choked on 8K RAW clips and H265 10bit 422 clips. The problem was video memory, and upgrading to an 8GB VRAM card would have required a new power supply as well, so more expensive than just getting a Mac mini m1.

Fourth, we are not talking about render times of hours versus minutes, but, say, 10 minutes versus 15 minutes.

Finally, if you have nothing to do with your time other than rendering you are either a professional, in which case you would not be considering cheap PC's, or need. to get life. Again, we are not talking about hours versus minutes, but maybe at most 2X more time - minutes.
Last edited by markr041 on Sun Jan 02, 2022 6:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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OliverZ

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Re: Looking to buy a "new" editing machine - M1 or PC?

PostSun Jan 02, 2022 6:35 pm

Is it really a matter of discussing whether a MAC is "better" than a PC ?!
I keep hearing these arguments "more stable, easier, works" etc. and realize that it is wishful thinking. Either you have the necessary hardware and knowledge (also with the OS) for your application, then you won't have any problems anywhere, or you won't ... Then it doesn't matter whether it's a MAC or PC .
It seems like "everyone against Willy" where Willy is Windows. Because if it's not a MAC then at least a LINUX PC - just not Windows ... So everyone has their own personal "dislike" it's just not really understandable :P
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: Looking to buy a "new" editing machine - M1 or PC?

PostSun Jan 02, 2022 9:55 pm

This is very short sited view and based on your own experience, which may apply to you, but you can't say it's true for everyone. Have you actually owned Mac?
It's not about Windows, OSX or Linux either- it's about machine as a whole (hardware+software).

Read on the google why IBM switched from PC laptops to Mac for their employees. Same applies to any bigger company and many single man ones. I worked for one with 600 employees- people which go to shoots, artists, client service, etc. They would never touch PC laptops (unless had to). All Mac for single reason- less problems. Rest were Linux workstations with Flame, Nuke etc. (or bare Linux as render nodes). Do you think that company which is all about making profit (they are one stock exchange) would waste money for Mac only because it's fancy ?! No, for them it was the way to save money (same as for IBM).

Here is a quote from IBM (believe it or not):
At that time, it was deploying 1,900 Mac devices per week. During this deployment, it found that a single help desk person was able to support 5,400 Mac users — even though it took about 22 people to support the equivalent number of PC users.
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Uli Plank

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Re: Looking to buy a "new" editing machine - M1 or PC?

PostMon Jan 03, 2022 12:03 am

It all boils down to a simple fact. It's not inherent superiority of one system never the other, but control over the configuration. Nobody can test a software on all configurations which are possible under Windows.
Look at all the discussions around here which graphics driver version will work with which GPU or where to plug your monitor and where not. It's a mess.
Once you found out which combination is working, a new software comes out and it'll start over.

Just not having to spend that much time to get things working means Macs are not more expensive – if you are making money while working with them instead of fixing problems.
No, an iGPU is not enough, and you can't use HEVC 10 bit 4:2:2 in the free version.

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Matt White

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Re: Looking to buy a "new" editing machine - M1 or PC?

PostMon Jan 03, 2022 3:30 pm

Indeed, this is the case. We do not care what name is on the product, as long as it works. We should not be loyal to brands: they should be loyal to us.

Over the course of four or five years, we wasted hundreds of hours fighting to keep our Mac Pros and Macbook Pros running; we lost incredible amounts of money on it. Since we switched to our main edit bay to a Puget-built PC, for a year straight we have had no service issues at all. It runs beautifully, is easy to upgrade and modify, and no client cares what name is on the box.

Naturally, if Apple proves reliable at the pro level again and competitive with Windows machines, we may switch. But at the moment, this is not the case.

With laptops, it may be different, but we no longer use laptops for anything but scripts and email.
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jamedia

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Re: Looking to buy a "new" editing machine - M1 or PC?

PostMon Jan 03, 2022 3:43 pm

Uli Plank wrote:It all boils down to a simple fact. It's not inherent superiority of one system never the other, but control over the configuration. Nobody can test a software on all configurations which are possible under Windows.
Look at all the discussions around here which graphics driver version will work with which GPU or where to plug your monitor and where not. It's a mess.
Once you found out which combination is working, a new software comes out and it'll start over.

Just not having to spend that much time to get things working means Macs are not more expensive – if you are making money while working with them instead of fixing problems.


So you are saying it is a choice of what Apple gives you or nothing.
Even for the Mac Pro the choice of avaialble graphics cards was small and each was a lot more expensive than it's PC counterpart.

With a PC I can build any configuration I like and because that is the main market for 99% of suppliers they do windows drivers first.
I know that 99.9% of the time the Windows PC will automatically find the correct driver. The only times this has not been the case is with specialised hardware and 90% of the time there wasn't a Mac driver anyway.

I can start with a base PC and in my own time increase the memory, the hard drives, and upgrade the Graphics cards. I can't do that with a Mac...

Even at my max chargeable rate the amount of aditional time to set up a PC over a MAC is nowhere near makes up the difference. BTW I have a Mac Pro and severla MacBook Pro's I have used MAC's for about 20 years. I go where the systems work with out chasing brands.
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Leslie Wand

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Re: Looking to buy a "new" editing machine - M1 or PC?

PostTue Jan 04, 2022 12:36 am

hey bm, what about porting resolve over to amigaOS 4.1?

that would shut the increasingly boring mac vs pc argument up - they'd then both have something else to vent about ;-)

if it works for you, great, however, it might not work for me - but then again, i'm not you...
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Mathias Schreiber

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Re: Looking to buy a "new" editing machine - M1 or PC?

PostTue Jan 04, 2022 9:51 am

Hope to add to the convo with some insights into a hybrid setup.
We use Windows Desktops but the editors have Macbook Pros for Homeoffice-Work.

Our Windows workstations are what we expected to be "pretty high up" with 12900k and a single RTX3090.
One important thing to note is that we edit off a NAS with 10GBe via Fibre on the windows machines while the MBPs have their footage locally.
We are VERY lazy, hence don't do any proxies other than Fusion comps.
Also our timelines are rather simple because we do ISO shoots utilizing MultiCam clips sprinkled with occasional B-roll and a Fusion comp here and there.

The tl;dr is this:
Intel 16" MBP < Windows Desktop == 13" M1.

We didn't bother to buy any 16" M1 Max, yet, but as soon as our editors whine loud enough I might get some to test.

What's interesting to see is that the Windows machines actually performs worse in Fusion comps than the M1.
It might be an issue with Davinci settings we haven't figured out yet, though.
Given the pricepoint of our desktops with the 3090 the only real reason to stick to them is that we run Decklink SDI cards in them so we have a dedicated reference output on an external TV.

Another point to consider is the lack of proper docking solutions for MBPs so you'll have cables running all over the place... OTOH this might just be our OCD talking :D
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Matt White

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Re: Looking to buy a "new" editing machine - M1 or PC?

PostTue Jan 04, 2022 3:39 pm

Leslie Wand wrote:hey bm, what about porting resolve over to amigaOS 4.1?

that would shut the increasingly boring mac vs pc argument up - they'd then both have something else to vent about ;-)

if it works for you, great, however, it might not work for me - but then again, i'm not you...


Or we could go back to the days when you had to mortgage your house to get an SGI or an Avid.
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Re: Looking to buy a "new" editing machine - M1 or PC?

PostWed Jan 05, 2022 12:36 am

Or we could go back to the days when you had to mortgage your house to get an SGI or an Avid.


NFK. I worked for the Vancouver Film School in the early 90s. A single seat of Media Composer would run us six figures, USD.

Today, Resolve, light years ahead of the 90s version of MC, is about $3K including hardware. Wow.

Regarding the original topic, my patience with Windows has reached the end. My next edit machine (and my first Mac), will be a next-gen Mac Mini.

Nice SR, BTW :)
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Re: Looking to buy a "new" editing machine - M1 or PC?

PostSat Jan 15, 2022 10:27 pm

Peter McLennan wrote:Regarding the original topic, my patience with Windows has reached the end.
I second. I've moved to Linux and I will never be back.
Peter McLennan wrote:My next edit machine (and my first Mac), will be a next-gen Mac Mini.
I am waiting for a new Mac Pro (Apple silicon-based desktop) to arrive and I am seriously considering it. But Mac Mini... what for?
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Uli Plank

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Re: Looking to buy a "new" editing machine - M1 or PC?

PostSun Jan 16, 2022 12:09 am

Price maybe?
I'd say, if you need portability, there's nothing better than a Mac these days. But if you need sheer power and upgradeability, Apple is not there yet. It would be a PC then.
No, an iGPU is not enough, and you can't use HEVC 10 bit 4:2:2 in the free version.

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Re: Looking to buy a "new" editing machine - M1 or PC?

PostMon Jan 17, 2022 10:50 am

Leslie Wand wrote:....to amigaOS 4.1?


Well, *real* computers just don't exist anymore...
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Re: Looking to buy a "new" editing machine - M1 or PC?

PostMon Jan 17, 2022 11:49 am

Well, I think I've seen a VAX by DEC in a museum recently, and they swore it's still operational.
Didn't want to let me try, though.
No, an iGPU is not enough, and you can't use HEVC 10 bit 4:2:2 in the free version.

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Re: Looking to buy a "new" editing machine - M1 or PC?

PostMon Jan 17, 2022 3:58 pm

lol I used to have to hang tape for VAX machines before I could do anything else.
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Re: Looking to buy a "new" editing machine - M1 or PC?

PostFri Jan 21, 2022 4:37 pm

stesin wrote: But Mac Mini... what for?


Hobby use nowadays. Portability not an issue. Neither is 98th percentile performance. Reliability and lack of peripherals issues trump everything else.
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Re: Looking to buy a "new" editing machine - M1 or PC?

PostSat Jan 22, 2022 12:54 am

No peripheral issues? I got drives here which work flawlessly wit Intel Mac mini or iMac, but disconnect after a few minutes from M1. Like a SanDisk Extreme 900, for example.
No, an iGPU is not enough, and you can't use HEVC 10 bit 4:2:2 in the free version.

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Re: Looking to buy a "new" editing machine - M1 or PC?

PostFri Jan 20, 2023 10:41 pm

I just posted this in a different thread, but it may be of help here.

I am working in Film and TV. Until my new M2 MAX Laptop shows up, ( YAYYYYY ) I will continue using my original M1 MacbookPro 16GB. Here are a few "Experience Benchmarks" I can share...

Keep in mind that Resolve utilizes the Machine better than Premiere.

In Resolve -

- This machine cuts through 6K & 8K RED like Butter ( 8K - 70 fps, 1080P timeline, 1/4 debayer ). Half debayer plays, but just a slight studder now and then. I edit in a 1080 Timeline, and then Switch to delivery resolution for output. Keep in mind 1080 is just about 1/8th resolution of 8K, so 1/4 Debayer looks great.

- Sony 4K Media on XQD media flys. No slowdowns experienced in Resolve.
- I worked mainly with F9 and F7's.

- a High quality H.264 ( or H.265 ) export on a 90 minute 1080p movie takes 12 minutes. ( 192 fps )
- This is in both Premiere and Resolve. I couldnt believe it was real the first time I exported a stringout.

- Resolve color correction doesnt really slow the system down. Even adding a "denoise" setting still plays back at full speed.

- FCPX has never slowed down for me. ( but I only work with 1080 material ).

All to say that anything more than the original M1 will make you VERY happy. If you're coming from an Intel chip like I did, you will be absolutely blown away.
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Uli Plank

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Re: Looking to buy a "new" editing machine - M1 or PC?

PostSat Jan 21, 2023 5:31 am

I can confirm most of these observations. Please note, though, that there will be a difference between Red footage from older models and that from recent ones. Where Red was using Wavelet, fractional decoding is very efficient. But now they switched to DCT, which can be slower at very high resolutions and doesn't profit as much. BRAW, though, even being DCT, cuts like butter on M1.
No, an iGPU is not enough, and you can't use HEVC 10 bit 4:2:2 in the free version.

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Re: Looking to buy a "new" editing machine - M1 or PC?

PostSat Jan 21, 2023 4:29 pm

I have been a PC user since early 1980's. Always constructed my own PC's. Have never bought a PC for myself. Early software for me as a video hobby was Premiere and actually got Fast Video machine cards etc for linear editing with Sony decks. Things have worked fine for me with Windows never looked at Mac's as they were too expensive compared to my home built PC's that would end up being a lot more powerful anyway. With moving into UHD files with GH5 camera, things got a little more of a problem doing multicam with my main editor at the time EDIUS. Tried Resolve that worked OK most of the time but felt I could do with a GPU upgrade. That is when I realized for a few hundred dollars more I could get a Studio Max rather than a RTX3090 that were not available anyway !! I had always felt that not being able to change components in the Mac was a no go for me. However at the same price I would not repair a NVIDIA GPU either !! So it was a matter of coming to terms with me not doing the build for a similar cost.

I have never had issue with Windows PC's I have built that I could not resolve. I do not mix editing PC with Web browsing or mail which is always on an old PC. Editing PC's or now the Mac only go internet for program updates. The Studio Max is treated the same way. Only has Resolve and Topaz Ai on it and will likely stay that way as most of the rest of what I do will stay PC like audio , encoding and authoring DVD etc. It's nice to edit on the Studio Max that handles the GH6 h265 files with hardware decode etc that the 1080Ti on the PC cannot handle well, then move SSD drive over to PC to do all the other stuff.

My preference is still Windows OS probably as I am still learning to use the Mac and now an iPad.
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Re: Looking to buy a "new" editing machine - M1 or PC?

PostSat Jan 21, 2023 7:16 pm

Uli Plank wrote:I can confirm most of these observations. Please note, though, that there will be a difference between Red footage from older models and that from recent ones. Where Red was using Wavelet, fractional decoding is very efficient. But now they switched to DCT, which can be slower at very high resolutions and doesn't profit as much. BRAW, though, even being DCT, cuts like butter on M1.


Maybe RED done new codec quickly and doesn't offer well designed partial resolution decoding in their SDK. For Jpeg2000 this is a "native" feature and basically always works well.
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