Mark out one frame after the playhead

I don't understand why but when i mark out, it's not the frame under the playhead that is indeed marked out but the frame after that. The mark in works as expected but the mark out is always a frame after. Do you have the same behaviour? Is there a way to change that?

As an example, if you place the playhead at the junction of two clips you will see the first frame of the next clip in the viewer. Putting an out point here will place it in the right place on the last frame of the previous clip. Adding an in point here will place that on the first frame of the next clip. This is normal behaviour.

That is not what is happening in my case. If my play head is on the junction of two clip, adding a mark out will place the mark out one frame after the junction.

Sorry Patrick, but the current behaviour is correct, no matter how much you might wish it worked otherwise.

Every frame has a duration (being 1 frame). When you place your play head and perform an action you are telling Resolve to perform the action on the frame under the playhead ... so when you mark an out point, you are actually selecting the frame under the play head as the last frame... you are not telling Resolve that the frame under the playhead is the 'frame after the the last frame'.

You may want to consider using other shortcuts, like Mark Clip (X) and Mark Selection (Shift A).

The problem with that behavior is when using audio waveform. I position my playhead just before the waveform is showing me that my talking head is speaking. Then i perform a ripple delete of everything till this mark out. But doing that, the ripple delete will delete the sound for one frame too much cuting the begining of the speech. So i need to place my playhead just before the begining of the waveform and then rewind one frame. I do that hundreds of times a day. It is time consuming and really counterintuitive.
I really think that should at least be an option in the user preferences.

The problem with that behavior is when using audio waveform. I position my playhead just before the waveform is showing me that my talking head is speaking. Then i perform a ripple delete of everything till this mark out. But doing that, the ripple delete will delete the sound for one frame too much cuting the begining of the speech. So i need to place my playhead just before the begining of the waveform and then rewind one frame. I do that hundreds of times a day. It is time consuming and really counterintuitive.
I really think that should at least be an option in the user preferences.

You could use the trim head command instead. Much faster.

I can’t use trim because I make all my cuts from one clip. I use ripple delete to remove everything that is not good.

You have to learn to use all the tools Patrick, not just one.
Good luck
Andy

I am an editor for 30 years and know the tools thank you. The trim is not the one I need in that case.

I can’t use trim because I make all my cuts from one clip. I use ripple delete to remove everything that is not good.

Having a single clip does not mean that you can't use trim head. It ripple deletes to the previous cut point, which is exactly what you are wanting.

No, what i want is remove a part of a clip between two parts of the same clip i want to keep.

No, what i want is remove a part of a clip between two parts of the same clip i want to keep.

And instead of marking In, you add one cut point, and then instead of marking Out and pressing delete you pressing your keyboard shortcut for Trim Head. Very simple.

Ok, i see what you mean. That could work but i'm less of fan of the method since i can't do it on the Speed editor.

I am an editor for 30 years...

Apologies Patrick, I guessed you were new as Mark Out has always functioned this way, across the majority of the mainstream traditional NLEs. This is not new behaviour specific to Resolve.

This topic has been discussed for many years and is incredibly frustrating to many editors, is it really that hard for Resolve to add a option to change the default behaviour (* an option we can choose not a change to the default behaviour to keep all the NLE purist happy) so that when you set a out point (for export) that it is the previous frame (outpoint exclusive) as that is what IMO 95% of editors want, as they would have snapped to the last frame of the edit they want exported and want a outpoint to export just the video content before the playhead.

I know you can use Shift A to add a in & out based on selection (with the out point being exclusive) but that isn't as easy as just using a keyboard shortcut to place a outpoint where the playhead has snapped.

I'm curious to know how many editors want the outpoint, for export, nothing to do with the way playhead works for editing in a NLE to include the last frame or to exclude the last frame at the playhead?

Who really wants a black frame or 1 frame of the next thing in the timeline at the end of your exported video?

FYI IDGF what the NLE "standard" that has been around forever etc etc, it seems more logical to be able to choose to alter the default behaviour of a outpoint for the sake of being able to easily export without including the frame at the playhead. please note - NOTHING to do with the behaviour of the playhead for editing which playhead inclusive is the standard and imo correct this is purely for export.

This topic has been discussed for many years and is incredibly frustrating to many editors, is it really that hard for Resolve to add a option to change the default behaviour (* an option we can choose not a change to the default behaviour to keep all the NLE purist happy) so that when you set a out point (for export) that it is the previous frame (outpoint exclusive) as that is what IMO 95% of editors want....

Are you sure you actually know what 95% of editors want? Do you actually know 95% of the editors on the planet? I'm not sure I know 95 editors (total) here in LA, but I'm sure I've worked with that many or more in the last 40 years.

I can tell you that over the years, many nonlinear systems adopted different methodologies for determining playhead behavior for edit/splice points. It was one way for certain things in the 1980s, then we had to change in the 1990s, then with daVinci it became pretty much the way it is now with Resolve. Colorists have grown used to this behavior for the past 25-30 years. I know for sure, Accom, Grass Valley, CMX, Sony, Convergence, Avid, Media 100, Editflex, Lightworks. and other systems all presented different interfaces, and new users basically just had to get used to it and move on.

My suggestion is to adopt a Zen attitude, stop fighting it, and just accept the way it is. Eventually, it'll become second nature and you won't even notice it. There are far bigger issues than this to argue about (and/or request changes).

Who really wants a black frame or 1 frame of the next thing in the timeline at the end of your exported video?

FYI IDGF what the NLE "standard" that has been around forever etc etc, it seems more logical to be able to choose to alter the default behaviour of a outpoint for the sake of being able to easily export without including the frame at the playhead. please note - NOTHING to do with the behaviour of the playhead for editing which playhead inclusive is the standard and imo correct this is purely for export.

I remember posting about this too 2 years ago...
This thread just reminded me that I may have introduced black frames or frames from the next clip (or same clip) "by accident" while exporting with in and out points without zooming in each time and move the out point at the proper place! Because I forgot about this problem. Fortunately for me, I never needed "frame" perfect exports, or edits.

https://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=134259

It is the most logical thing to have the out point exactly where the playhead is.
Nobody wants the next frame (or think they will have the next frame) when we set in and out points.

Every single person on the planet would never think that if you set a range... like [****]**
you'll get [****]* as a result.

The playhead is used to set things..."at the playhead", nowhere else.

If I want to set a marker, I move the playhead where I want to have the marker, and it's put right ON the playhead, not before, not after.

When I set an in or out point, I want the out point ON the playhead.

I'm pissed again now lol I honestly forgot about it, my logic (shared with 99.99% of the planet) took over again, and I just set in out point, copy past stuff around.

If someone wants to work with precision, without having to constantly adjust the out point, they can't. How it works now slows things down so much.

I don't know man, at some point the logic got twisted, and people are defending it because they had to adapt to this twisted logic for many years.

I always read things like : The playhead shows "the next frame"... So the out point should include this frame - Without looking at what action the user wants to perform 99.9% in this case. Playing the selection in loop, copy-pasting, exporting. Nobody wants anything other than what's in the selection.

What we have to do now (if you don't forget like I did), is to ALWAYS adjust the playhead one frame before, before taping the "O" key to set an out point.

We shouldn't have to do that.

I mean, when a clip is selected, and we tap the keyboard shortcut "X" to set the in and out points, it doesn't go beyond what we selected.

The issue with that is that then you won't be exporting the frame you're watching when you set the out point, if the out point isn't the edge of the clip.

While the playhead is depicted as a thin line, it's useful to think of it as being one frame wide which is exactly how the out point works.

The issue with that is that then you won't be exporting the frame you're watching when you set the out point, if the out point isn't the edge of the clip.

While the playhead is depicted as a thin line, it's useful to think of it as being one frame wide which is exactly how the out point works.

I understand that.

But when we make a cut, between two different scenes for example, we go to the first frame of the new scene (the one on screen), make the cut, because that's what we want, two precisely cut group of frames.

Like a physical tape. The scissor is in between. Cutting or adding in/out points are the same general concept, the result is a range of frames in their own "group".

When I want to select something, I go to the "new" frame, and everything on the left is what I want to get in my selection, nothing else. And yes, what's on the screen wouldn't be included... why would it be It's just an indicator, like it is when we perform a cut.

It's visual, precise, and fast because it becomes muscle memory... Having to do something else when setting in and out points breaks the flow. There are zero reasons for that.

It's well understood that when we do a cut, what we see on screen is the frame on the right of the playhead.

The same logic should be applied to the actions needed to set in and out points. Because what we want is a fast way to make a precise selection, for looping/copy-past/export part of the timeline.

I see many people saying that : it's industry standard - or - it works that way for decades.
Well, bad standards, bad workflows/habits are set all the time in all industries, it doesn't mean they are always good.

The out point isn't a cut point and that, perhaps, is the most confusing thing about this. The out point defines the last frame of interest between the in and out span of frames. A cut point defines the first frame of interest to the right of the 'cut'. I agree that the concept takes some getting used-to. Avid even has a modifier key to allow you to snap to either the start of a frame or end of a frame (which actually snaps to the start of the next frame - this is used to snap to either the last frame of a clip or the first frame on the next clip, for example). The fact that Avid created this duality is evidence (to me, anyway) that this discussion has merit.

When I set an in or out point, I want the out point ON the playhead.

I'm pissed again now lol I honestly forgot about it, my logic (shared with 99.99% of the planet) took over again, and I just set in out point, copy past stuff around.

It's not shared with 99.9% of the planet though is it, and hyperbole like this doesn't help your case. You really, really don't like it I get it, but that doesn't mean that you speak for so many others, editors or otherwise.

Your logic is that the out point it the first frame to exclude.

The logic in the software (and most others) is that the out point is the last frame to *include*. If it wasn't the case, and defined the out point like you do, it wouldn't have the current behaviour.

This will only be a problem when exporting part of a timeline, where all you do is press down immediately followed by left, an incredibly simple and quick operation. For exporting entire timelines, you don't even need to set in/out points, as in all software exporting the entire timeline (and no extra frames) is the default when no in/out points exist. I keep seeing editors use in/out points on the whole timeline, neglect even to go in a frame at the end, and so get a frame extra. The problem isn't the software, it's them.

Re....

Another case, copy/past a background (with a solid color generator) for 60 elements on my timeline gives me an extra frame each time...

99% of the in/outs use dont he edit page are used for looping videos, copy/past elements.

in = everything on the right, out = everything on the left

using the in/out keyboard shortcuts...

Would the x shortcut serve you better here?

If you're selecting more than one clip, you can use x on the last clip, and then move the playhead earlier to set the In point.

using the in/out keyboard shortcuts...

Would the x shortcut serve you better here?

If you're selecting more than one clip, you can use x on the last clip, and then move the playhead earlier to set the In point.

No, because X doesn't work on subtitles, generators or compound clips. I just created a fr for that...
But it doesn't really matter because the out point shouldn't include an extra frame.

in/out points are used as selections on the timelines on the edit page. For looping, copy/past elements, etc.

Imagine if you used the "Range" selection on the fairlight page, and it would constantly grab an extra "frame" (I don't know how the points are called, samples?).

X doesn't work on subtitles, generators or compound clips.

I don't use Subtitles, but it worked fine for me on Generators and Compound Clips.

Studio 18.1.4 on Windows 10.

it would constantly grab an extra "frame"

Well, I think you're looking at it wrong.

Resolve doesn't grab anything extra. The playhead looks forward. So if you place the playhead on the last frame of Clip A, you're actually seeing the first frame of Clip B.

That's just how NLE's work.

And I don't believe it's a good idea to have the Out point set itself anywhere other than where you tell it to. So if you set your Out point on the first frame of Clip B, sorry but...that's just Operator Error.

No, because X doesn't work on subtitles, generators or compound clips. I just created a fr for that...

It already works on all of these, plus adjustment clips, you just have to make sure that your auto track selectors are assigned properly, details of which can be found in the manual

Hello,

Clearly this is a not traditional approach for this function and I fail to see any advantages over what most other NLEs do. I don;t know any other NLE that would place out point one frame off from the play-head position. I've used quite a lot of NLEs, from popular to less popular and even opensource ones, and first time I see, that the out point would be placed not at the exact place of the play head.

And honestly it is very annoying and inconvenient to always have to set one frame back for the out point to be where I need it. Mark and park way of editing is something I know well after using Lightworks for many years, which has an excellent approach on this type of editing, so I know why there are so many confused people. Davinci Resolve's approach isn't traditional expected behavior and it doesn't look like this approach offers any advantages over what the one expect.
An option to choose whether out point should be placed exactly where the play-head is or one or whatever frames offset would be greatly appreciated and I think a must have.

Clearly this is a not traditional approach for this function and I fail to see any advantages over what most other NLEs do. I don;t know any other NLE that would place out point one frame off from the play-head position. I've used quite a lot of NLEs, from popular to less popular and even opensource ones, and first time I see, that the out point would be placed not at the exact place of the play head.

Avid, Premiere, FCP7 and X all set out points this way, so clearly it IS traditional behaviour, and these (FCPX aside) are the main NLEs used by professionals since forever. What are these popular NLEs you speak of that do things differently? How widely are they used by professionals? By all means suggest different ways of doing things but don't try and bluff by saying that your intended way is 'traditional behaviour'.

Maybe in some NLEs this is something that is optional and can be set differently, but from what you mentioned above, I've tried AVID Liquid (if I remember the name correct) it's an old NLE by AVID which is now discontinued, I remember mark out points being exactly where play head was.
In final Cut pro 7 I didn;t perfom mark in and out, can;t comment, was a brief try at friends.... but that NLE didn;t leave a good impression on me... so didn;t pay attention much to it.
Premiere used to work as expected, mark out where the playhead is ( keep in mind many of the apps I've tried during the times of early 2004 till 2010, things might have changed), Video pro X, mark out where the play head is. There used to be Ulead Media studio Pro, also used to do mark out at the playhead, Corel Video studio used to do mark out at the playhead position (wonder if it is still alive), Pinnacle video editor, don;t remember the name, used to mark out at the playhead.

More recent usages from 2010, Edius also marks at the playhead position if my memory doesn;t lie to me, although in that app rarely used mark in and out. Early versions of Davinci Resolve used to mark out at the playhead position, main reason for the confusion to me.

Lightworks video NLE, it's entire editing technology is developed on mark & park type editing, marks exactly where you need the points to be.

Many opensource NLEs seems to be not offsett as well, one exception I found is KDEnlive, but at least it shows where it will mark out.

please don't be very defensive on the matter, people come with plenty of different experiences and learning, I can;t argue there might be two schools where some people learned one way, while others the other way, I fail to see how can this offset be of any use, it is more of a headache to me, but if it exist, probably there is use case for it. I think these things should be optional at least, there are many people who are confused by this, means that this offset approach is not universally used. Well that is my personal opinion and impression. As we can see, it is a first time I see it and I am in a field almost 2 decades and can't wrap my head around. Especially when I am exporting image sequences with alpha channel and that black frame plays on nerves as i have to delete it just because I forgot Resolve mark one frame behind. Imagine forgetting that on a batch export Not to mention that my mark and park approach of editing is also being affected, as I lose speed because I have to nudge one frame back all the time. Apparently there are plenty editors who also prefer mark and park type editing.

I feel like I'm entering the twilight zone again... What are people talking about when they mention the 1 frame offset?

If you want to mark the in/out of a clip, you select the clip and hit the X key and the first and last frame of the clip are selected.

If you have two clips side-by-side and you use the up/down arrow keys to jump to the beginning of the first clip, hit the mark-in and then use the down arrow key to jump to the first frame of the next clip, you must move back one frame to mark the last frame of the previous clip. This is normal and expected behaviour.

In Avid, there was a shortcut key that would let you snap to the the end of the last clip rather than the beginning of the next clip, but in all cases, the position of the in/out point would correspond to the frame visible in the viewer, not the previous frame.

resolve-markoutb.jpg (55.45 KiB) Viewed 731 times

When editing using a mark and park method, the one expect the in and out marks to be exactly where needed, no frame further or back.
In the attached image you can see where is the play-head, where is my mark out point and where I expected it to be. it doesn't matter whether playhead is in the middle of the clip, between the clips etc, where I place the play-head, I expect it to mark exact that frame. In Resovle and as it is claimed in Avid video editor, there is now this 1 frame offset, when I mark in, all is good, mark out is offset,

It would be great if we could have an option to set whether we want the mark out be marked 1 frame off or at the exact position of play-head,

this is a very small thing, but it is very annoying and inconvenient. And time consuming issue. I tend to use mark and park method for editing, I like to mark segment of clips or clip, cut it out, then insert/replace what I cut into another place etc. but this one frame offset is ruining that workflow, which is one of the standard methods to edit videos. And since Resolve offers this methods in addition to all other ways, it should work properly, especiallhy when the early versions used to work as expected, I don;t remember which version introduced NLE into resovle for editing, was it 12 or late 11, or was it 10th version, Davinci Resolve 8 didn't have had any video editing capabilites, it was only for color grading... but it all was working good, it looks like in some version this was changed and this 1 frame offset introduced.

Another troublesome thing is that this 1 frame offset is also true if I mark the end of the edit, there is empty space and if I manually mark the out point, this one extra frame is added. while it is not a biggie for video clips, that don't need to fit exact time-frames, it becomes a tiny problem when exporting image sequences with alpha channel, as you always get this one black frame at the end. took me a while to realize it was not a bug in another software, but a black frame at the end of the image sequence, I sometimes use Resolve to create overlay titles and other graphics to be used in other software.
I imagine this should explain tiny bit why it is confusing and inconvenient for the out point to be created not at the frame start, but at the end. This one frame may ruin plenty of things when it begins to add up in numbers. sync losses etc.

But it also could be that Resolve expect the user to edit in a different certain way and I can't argue with that. But why did they change it? Did BMD get complaints from ex Avid users? Why make it default and not an option to choose if they want users from competition to go to BMD? I remember this issue didn;t exist many years ago, I am a returning Resolve user and naturally got confused that one of fundamental features no longer works as used to, I thought this is a bug.

Another troublesome thing is that this 1 frame offset is also true if I mark the end of the edit, there is empty space and if I manually mark the out point, this one extra frame is added.

Why are you marking the out point here? If you want to export from an in point to the end of your timeline then you don't need to set the out point. And if you want the entire timeline then no in/out points are required at all.

Another troublesome thing is that this 1 frame offset is also true if I mark the end of the edit, there is empty space and if I manually mark the out point, this one extra frame is added.

Why are you marking the out point here? If you want to export from an in point to the end of your timeline then you don't need to set the out point. And if you want the entire timeline then no in/out points are required at all.

Indeed it is not needed if the edit in the time line is only one video.
But... not an elegant way of doing things, I know, there are times when the one is doing a bunch of short clips and if there will be no versioning required, the one does not make separate timelines for each, just one time line which has segments of a few edits.
For example, since I use Resolve to create animated lower thirds, I tend to just duplicate the lower thirds and change the credentials, it is not worth making separate time lines for each, so lets say I have 20 names, I have 20 segments of lower thirds in the time line and I export each using mark in and out. Resolve has really great batch exporting features, so for some quick projects one time line, a bunch of segments, mark in and out needed segments. Note what I call segments may be composed of more than one clip.

Again not an elegant and not the best workflow, but seen I am not the only one doing that, sometimes I leave parts I am not sure about in the back of the time line just in case I would need to swap something etc.

But the biggest problem is when the one wants to use mark and park type editing in it's entirety. I my self didn;t expect it to be such a problem, but it is. It also leaves room for trash frames if for example I was marking out the end of the clip and a frame of another clip got taken as well.