Blackmagic Forum

Working in DaVinci color managed timeline output SDR rec 709 output tags of gamma and color space set as same as timeline. A perfect match between Davinci and Quicktime (V10.5) but a really noticeable Gamma shift when uploaded to Vimeo. Blacks are really lifted and contrast reduced. Ideas?

Might just be a Data Levels interpretation issue. Check your delivery preset Advanced Settings > Data Levels setting and do a separate test export and upload for both Video and Full.

Thanks, I just tried that and no change..

If you want it look fine on Macs (and don't care much about PCs) then use Rec.709-A gamma for output setting. Tags can stay on "Same as project".

Does Vimeo look at color space / gamma tags or does it assume Rec709 Gamma 2.4 (or 2.2)? Just curious.

They say they look at tags, but it doesn't help much. They may do conversion, but it won't help as they won't use 1.96 (more likely sRGB, 2.2, etc.) which is required to look fine on OSX color manage preview.

Only thing you can do is to send Rec.709 tagged file which is 1.96 gamma based (it should go through Vimeo untouched). They could do 2nd transcode for Safari preview with 1.96 math, but this would cost them 2x processing/costs etc.

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:If you want it look fine on Macs (and don't care much about PCs) then use Rec.709-A gamma for output setting. Tags can stay on "Same as project".

Looks great on a Mac on Qucktime but there's a Gamma shift in Vimeo.

I wondered if Vimeo retained the tags or whether they replaced them during transcode which would explain the issue observed, I suppose. If you were to download the Vimeo video, bring it back into Resolve and tell Resolve what the color space and gamma should be using the original space and gamma you exported, does it look OK or do you need to tell Resolve that it's Rec709 Gamma 1.96? In other words, does Vimeo actually change the color space/gamma during transcode or just the tagging?

Steve Alexander wrote:I wondered if Vimeo retained the tags or whether they replaced them during transcode which would explain the issue observed, I suppose. If you were to download the Vimeo video, bring it back into Resolve and tell Resolve what the color space and gamma should be using the original space and gamma you exported, does it look OK or do you need to tell Resolve that it's Rec709 Gamma 1.96? In other words, does Vimeo actually change the color space/gamma during transcode or just the tagging?

Good idea! I just downloaded and clicked get info and it says color profile is (HD) 1-1-1 whereas the one I uploaded was color profile (HD) 1-2-1

They change tag and this is why there is no other fix except sending files which are graded to 1.96 gamma ( Rec.709-A).
Vimeo SDR files have always 1-1-1 tag and for OSX color engine this means 1.96 gamma. Unless you grade to this gamma you always going to see shift on Vimeo.

Whole tagging issue been explained here countless times.
Just use search as this is just 20th thread about well known issue.

Watch this

I just forgotten about another possible solution.
Write petition to YT/Vimeo etc. to preserve sRGB tags in videos.
This way once you use sRGB based project in Resolve everything would look fine, even on PCs which blindly assume sRGB based data.
As long as they keep changing tag to 1-1-1 and Apple continue to use 1.96 gamma based math behind 1-1-1 tag issue will never be solved.

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:They change tag and this is why there is no other fix except sending files which are graded to 1.96 gamma ( Rec.709-A).
Vimeo SDR files have always 1-1-1 tag and for OSX color engine this means 1.96 gamma. Unless you grade to this gamma you always going to see shift on Vimeo.

Whole tagging issue been explained here countless times.
Just use search as this is just 20th thread about well known issue.

Watch this

I know it's been dealt with many times, I've read all the threads and yet I'm still struggling with it. I have an engineering background, I've worked with stills color management for 20 years and I still struggle to understand this issue. I guess I can't work in the Davinci YRGB color managed workflow with a 1.96 Gamma or Rec.709-A as these aren't options in this workflow which is my preferred way of working. I suppose just outputting as Rec 709-A doesn't work does it?

woofy75 wrote:...I guess I can't work in the Davinci YRGB color managed workflow with a 1.96 Gamma or Rec.709-A as these aren't options in this workflow which is my preferred way of working. I suppose just outputting as Rec 709-A doesn't work does it?

You can do project as you want- eg. use Rec.709 wit 2.4 gamma.
Key point is that video for YT/Vimeo needs to have 1.96 gamma (and 1-1-1 tag), so you have to export extra version after conversion to Rec.709-A gamma.

Just done small test.
In Vimeo all looks the same- Resolve, QT X and Vimeo.

As far as YT transcoded video looks identical when downloaded, there is still some difference when you watch it in YT website.
YT it's doing something to streamed video. Regardless what you upload when you play over their player and play YT downloaded file (those should look the same!), they will look different!
It looks like YT player had some overlay filter which reduces video signal to eg. 90%. Strange crap
Use Vimeo

Hi Andrew,

What color space and gamma in Resolve do you use to ensure Rec709 gamma 1.96 and tagging 1-1-1?

I'm getting confused, lol

There is only 1 way (simple) to use 1.96 gamma based grading in Resolve and it's setting project to Rec.709-A. This is exactly what it was introduced for.

If you need some broadcast etc. file then you grade to standard value eg. 2.4 and just add node which converts gamma to Rec.709-A when you export for Vimeo/YT upload (well YT is broken anyway it was just pausing issue which puts an overlay on video making it darker).

Point is that for correct Vimeo preview on Mac file has to be 1.96 gamma based (and have standard 1-1-1 tag). In Resolve this is done by setting project to Rec.709-A gamma (color space is just Rec.709).

I see. Thanks. I didn't realize that Rec709-A is gamma 1.96. That was the missing link for me.

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:There is only 1 way (simple) to use 1.96 gamma based grading in Resolve and it's setting project to Rec.709-A. This is exactly what it was introduced for.

If you need some broadcast etc. file then you grade to standard value eg. 2.4 and just add node which converts gamma to Rec.709-A when you export for Vimeo/YT upload (well YT is broken anyway).

Point is that for correct Vimeo preview on Mac file has to be 1.96 gamma based (and have standard 1-1-1 tag). In Resolve this is done by setting project to Rec.709-A gamma (color space is just Rec.709).

Thanks Andrew, it's starting to make sense! In the Davinci YRGB Color managed workspace there is no option for setting the project to Rec.709-A gamma. (attached image)

Tagging is under Advanced Settings in the Deliver page.

Uli Plank wrote:Tagging is under Advanced Settings in the Deliver page.

Will just tagging into the correct Gamma do it? Don't I have to grade in that Gamma in order for the output to look like what I am seeing on my monitor?

Sorry, I overlooked you are on automatic. You'll need to switch that off before final render.

But the suggestion of a CST by Andrew should do.

Uli Plank wrote:Sorry, I overlooked you are on automatic. You'll need to switch that off before final render.

When you say automatic do you mean the Davinci YRGB color managed space?

Yes. But a CST node with Rec 709-A after everything will do the same.

woofy75 wrote:

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:There is only 1 way (simple) to use 1.96 gamma based grading in Resolve and it's setting project to Rec.709-A. This is exactly what it was introduced for.

If you need some broadcast etc. file then you grade to standard value eg. 2.4 and just add node which converts gamma to Rec.709-A when you export for Vimeo/YT upload (well YT is broken anyway).

Point is that for correct Vimeo preview on Mac file has to be 1.96 gamma based (and have standard 1-1-1 tag). In Resolve this is done by setting project to Rec.709-A gamma (color space is just Rec.709).

Thanks Andrew, it's starting to make sense! In the Davinci YRGB Color managed workspace there is no option for setting the project to Rec.709-A gamma. (attached image)

Select 'Use separate color space and gamma' and you can select Rec709-A in the color management panel as well. Then presumably you can grade in that gamma and also use that tag in the delivery page, no?

Steve Alexander wrote:

woofy75 wrote:

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:There is only 1 way (simple) to use 1.96 gamma based grading in Resolve and it's setting project to Rec.709-A. This is exactly what it was introduced for.

If you need some broadcast etc. file then you grade to standard value eg. 2.4 and just add node which converts gamma to Rec.709-A when you export for Vimeo/YT upload (well YT is broken anyway).

Point is that for correct Vimeo preview on Mac file has to be 1.96 gamma based (and have standard 1-1-1 tag). In Resolve this is done by setting project to Rec.709-A gamma (color space is just Rec.709).

Thanks Andrew, it's starting to make sense! In the Davinci YRGB Color managed workspace there is no option for setting the project to Rec.709-A gamma. (attached image)

Select 'Use separate color space and gamma' and you can select Rec709-A in the color management panel as well. Then presumably you can grade in that gamma and also use that tag in the delivery page, no?

Hallelujah! That did it, that was the only thing that worked. I tried Color Space Transform, changing tags, non of that worked. That's the one thing that worked and now it looks exactly the same between Davinci viewer, Quicktime and Vimeo. And it's super easy to do and change back if I needed it in a different Gamma. This issue has bugged me forever without a solution.

Not quite the same situation but I am interested in finding out the following.

I create a mp4 output from Resolve on my PC, gamma 2.4, color managed, source is multicam GH5 and GH5S UHD 60P in a 1920x1080 project. How will this look on a Mac compared to a PC and on a Smart TV ? If I then take this same project and export on a Mac how will this be different ?

Up till now I have been PC only but have ordered a Studio Max so want to know how this will effect my work flow. Output for me is mainly DVD, Bluray and a few USB drives. Some mov h265 files of zoom shows posted to club YT site. I was planning to edit on the Studio but do all the outputting on my PC as usual.

Steve Alexander wrote:

woofy75 wrote:

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:There is only 1 way (simple) to use 1.96 gamma based grading in Resolve and it's setting project to Rec.709-A. This is exactly what it was introduced for.

If you need some broadcast etc. file then you grade to standard value eg. 2.4 and just add node which converts gamma to Rec.709-A when you export for Vimeo/YT upload (well YT is broken anyway).

Point is that for correct Vimeo preview on Mac file has to be 1.96 gamma based (and have standard 1-1-1 tag). In Resolve this is done by setting project to Rec.709-A gamma (color space is just Rec.709).

Thanks Andrew, it's starting to make sense! In the Davinci YRGB Color managed workspace there is no option for setting the project to Rec.709-A gamma. (attached image)

Select 'Use separate color space and gamma' and you can select Rec709-A in the color management panel as well. Then presumably you can grade in that gamma and also use that tag in the delivery page, no?

Set output color space and gamma as mentioned: Rec.709/Rec.709-A.
Leave tagging to default "Same as project" value (same result as setting to Rec.709 or Rec.709-A - they all set 1-1-1 tag).

woofy75 wrote:

Uli Plank wrote:Tagging is under Advanced Settings in the Deliver page.

Will just tagging into the correct Gamma do it? Don't I have to grade in that Gamma in order for the output to look like what I am seeing on my monitor?

It won't. It's not just about tag, but about video having actual 1.96 gamma.

I have had consistent success by setting the main Resolve preferences to rec 709-A and using RCM with timeline set to P-3, which uses all of the Studio or iMac display space. On output set it to rec709, or P-3, which is what my Sony TV can deliver.

Does that work if your Sony is playing it off Vimeo?

I dont know, but personally giving that the general environment is loosely calibrated anyway and you’re not seeing that in a proper room/light anyway, I just accept the difference and sleep in the night…..

DavidVogt wrote:I have had consistent success by setting the main Resolve preferences to rec 709-A and using RCM with timeline set to P-3, which uses all of the Studio or iMac display space. On output set it to rec709, or P-3, which is what my Sony TV can deliver.

It will work only on “devices” which assume that video gamut matches device gamut ( so no management is happening). With P3 we are back to the same problem as with gamma. You grade to P3, Resolve will properly tag file as P3 ( so QTX preview will be correct), but moment it goes over YT/Vimeo tag is changed to 1-1-1 ( but most likely gamut is not converted) so it will say Rec.709. If end device reads this tag and takes into account when displaying you have bad result- real P3 gamut is displayed as Rec.709, so preview will be oversaturated. This will be the case for OSX.

As long as YT/Vimeo keeps blindly tagging everything to 1-1-1 ( without converting actual video) problem will never go away.
Accuracy of the display is another story, but without correct pipe/math it won’t work even if you watch it on a reference screen.

Okay, I still don't feel like I am on top of this.

I graded an entire project in DaVinci YRGB rec.709/2.4 gamma (standard). I'm on a Mac.

How do I export this project to actually match what I'm seeing while grading to YouTube/Vimeo on both Mac and Windows devices?

For web upload convert to Rec.709A gamma.
You can just add color space filter in last node or set project output to Rec.709A before export.

Thanks Andrew! So it's just a matter of flicking the Project setting output color space to Rec.709A while leaving the timeline color space at 709.24?

Yes, should do.

Hello,
I'm also struggling with this.
I've read the thread several times, but can't seem to get this right.
Would you please tell me what I should set for the different fields below in order to get colors on vimeo as close as can be to what I've been seeing while grading in Resolve.
I start by setting colors for the projects this way:
Color science: Davinci YRGB
Timeline color space: Rec-709 (Scene)
Output color science: Same as Timeline
Before I deliver, I change project settings to:
Color science: Davinci YRGB
Timeline color space: Rec-709-A
Output color science: Rec-709-A
I do not see color appearance changes at this point in Resolve, so I guess I'm not doing what's needed.
Then I deliver with these settings:
Format: Quicktime
Codec: H264
Color Space Tag: Same as Project
Gamma Tag: Same as Project
Then I upload on vimeo. The result looks desaturated and with less contrast.
I would be grateful if you copy paste all these lines and change the settings to the right values.
Thanks in advance.

stephane_zerkalo wrote:Hello,
I'm also struggling with this.
I've read the thread several times, but can't seem to get this right.
Would you please tell me what I should set for the different fields below in order to get colors on vimeo as close as can be to what I've been seeing while grading in Resolve.
I start by setting colors for the projects this way:
Color science: Davinci YRGB
Timeline color space: Rec-709 (Scene)
Output color science: Same as Timeline
Before I deliver, I change project settings to:
Color science: Davinci YRGB
Timeline color space: Rec-709-A
Output color science: Rec-709-A
I do not see color appearance changes at this point in Resolve, so I guess I'm not doing what's needed.
Then I deliver with these settings:
Format: Quicktime
Codec: H264
Color Space Tag: Same as Project
Gamma Tag: Same as Project
Then I upload on vimeo. The result looks desaturated and with less contrast.
I would be grateful if you copy paste all these lines and change the settings to the right values.
Thanks in advance.

As in about 15% de-sat and 15% less contrast? That would be a video vs full level issue

stephane_zerkalo wrote:Hello,
I'm also struggling with this.
I've read the thread several times, but can't seem to get this right.
Would you please tell me what I should set for the different fields below in order to get colors on vimeo as close as can be to what I've been seeing while grading in Resolve.
I start by setting colors for the projects this way:
Color science: Davinci YRGB
Timeline color space: Rec-709 (Scene)
Output color science: Same as Timeline
Before I deliver, I change project settings to:
Color science: Davinci YRGB
Timeline color space: Rec-709-A
Output color science: Rec-709-A
I do not see color appearance changes at this point in Resolve, so I guess I'm not doing what's needed.
Then I deliver with these settings:
Format: Quicktime
Codec: H264
Color Space Tag: Same as Project
Gamma Tag: Same as Project
Then I upload on vimeo. The result looks desaturated and with less contrast.
I would be grateful if you copy paste all these lines and change the settings to the right values.
Thanks in advance.

If you've changed Timeline and Output it means you are passing exactly same video and it won't be adjusted to needed gamma.
Before export change just Output setting (timeline stays at original value).

Never use Rec.709-Scene for final delivery as it's not a delivery gamma at all.

I've tried to use both advice:
1) full level instead of video
2) change output space to Rec 709-A

Basically the workflow is now:

I start by setting colors for the projects this way:
Color science: Davinci YRGB
Timeline color space: Rec-709 (Scene)
Output color science: Same as Timeline

Before I deliver, I change project settings to:
Color science: Davinci YRGB
Timeline color space: Rec-709 (Scene)
Output color science: Rec-709-A
I still do not see color appearance changes at this point in Resolve, so I guess I'm not doing what's needed.

Then I deliver with these settings:
Format: Quicktime
Codec: H264
Color Space Tag: Same as Project
Gamma Tag: Same as Project
Data Levels: Full

And I still have the desat + low contrast on vimeo (yes, 15%).
What am I missing?
Thanks.

Use these settings:


If you just need YT version use above settings from the beginning.
If you need proper 2.4 gamma grade then change output to Rec.709 Gamma 2.4 and grade.
Then when you need YT version for Mac change to above.
Don't touch any other settings.

I've done what you've said.
I'm not uploading to Youtube, but to Vimeo.
I still see the exact same desaturation and low contrast.
If I set Gamma Tag on delivery to 2.6, contrast is almost ok, but it's still desaturated.
Should I export to mp4 instead? Is it sth else?

mp4 does not change the problem. Sth must be wrong in my workflow. Footage comes from BMPCC 4K, and I apply no LUT (grading directly the raw footage with Clip settings).

No idea- works for me.
Grading technique etc is meaningless (unless you have some preview LUTs).
Don't try to use some random settings- not the way to solve it.

How are you watching it - Safari ?
Also- I assume your Resolve settings are correct. Use Mac display color profiles, 10bit preview etc.

It works now!
Use Mac display color profiles was not checked, I think this was the issue.
Thanks!

However, when I switch to these settings, I don't have access anymore to contrast, saturation, shadow rolloff… raw clip settings anymore for grading. Is there any way I can't get those active?

In color managed project this is normal (I assume).
Use color grade tools which give same results.

There are so many variables. It is so confusing.

I am amazed that Blackmagic would not offer a simple guide that would give exact settings for the required results.

Can we stop pretending that YT is not the major outlet of content?

Insanity.

BM can do nothing about it. There is no single solution. Best info you have is on this forum. There is nothing better or more to add.
It needs actions from all parts, starting from bodies like ITU, through Apple, MS then YT/Vimeo and at the end BM, Adobe etc.
Problem is that no money comes with it, so NO ONE CARES.

I tried with Vimeo, gave them temp solution which would need not much work from them and they acknowledged it, but 3 months and 0 actions.
My advice is to keep writing to YT and Vimeo. If they receive thousands of emails maybe it will gain their attention.

Meh….

It’s close enough and i got paid.

Move to the next job.

wakeup wrote:There are so many variables. It is so confusing.

I am amazed that Blackmagic would not offer a simple guide that would give exact settings for the required results.

Thera are just too many different explanations and solutions for this. No wonder there exist 100 Topics on this.

Take for example this video:

Here Daria Fissoun (Color Expert from BMD itself) explains the topic. Followed her advise, but didn't work for me.

Or take this great conversation between R. Neil Haugen and Lars Borg from Adobe: nlc-tags-1-1-1-vs-1-2-1

My only question on someone that actually delivers for broadcast is, if there are indeed qc problems when delivering a 1-2-1 file?

Cheers