dual HDR SDR output from ultrastudio

I'm about to start my first HDR grade and I'd like to setup a UHD HDR P3 output on on output and an SDR HD 709 conversion to a 2nd output. I have an Ultrastudio 4K extreme (the older one with TB2, but I hook it to the computer with a pci cable).

The problem is the manual says this, "Your DaVinci Resolve grading workstation must output via a DeckLink 8K Pro or DeckLink 4K Extreme 12G." So does this not work with my Ultrastudio? Would it work with the old 3d trick? Does the old 3d trick still work in the latest Resolve, or would I have to downgrade?

You need mentioned cards.
It won't work with others.
Not sure about 3D trick.

[Dwaine Maggart]

The UltraStudio 4K Extreme should work. But there is a caveat.

Any of our (supported) I/O devices EXCEPT the DeckLink 8K Pro card, when put into the dual HDR/SDR mode, will have a stereo 3D VPID in the SDI streams. Some devices don't like this 3D VPID and will not properly work.

So your US 4K Extreme will output dual HDR/SDR, but both SDI outputs will contain the 3D VPID. If your devices ignore that, great. If they are upset by it, the only solution is the DeckLink 8K Pro card.

Thank you! Hopefully my monitors should be fine. They're FSI monitors, which don't do 3d. So hopefully they wouldn't be confused by it.

[Dwaine Maggart]

Let us know.

I can get it to work if I have the output set to 1080p24. If I set the output to UHD I get a "Failed to enable video output mode [0x346b3234] at device 0 " error. Is this normal behavior and if I want simultaneous SDR and HDR output it has to just be HD? Or should I keep trying to find a way to output UHD this way? If it matters, I'm using a Supermicro 7048gr-tr with the US 4k Extreme attached via pci cable to slot 11, the top slot that is a x8. I mention this because it's not the BM recommended slot.

Also I noticed the manual's section HDR10+ section does mention the US 4k extreme. Is there something different about HDR10+ that works better with the 4k extreme than Dolbyvision where it is not listed?

[Dwaine Maggart]

I would expect the original US 4K Extreme to be able to do that, but don't currently have access to test for sure.

What frame rate are you using? 24 should work.

Start a new project, and in the Project Settings Video Monitoring area, with Video Bit Depth set to 10 bit, select Video Format to UHD 23.976 or 24, and none of the checkboxes below Video Format checked, and Single Link SDI and verify you are getting that out of the A port.

Now enable "Use dual outputs on SDI". Do you get an error?

If not, enable the "Use 4:4:4 SDI" checkbox. Does that generate an error?

I can imagine 4:4:4 UHD might not work. I can imagine 12 bit might not work.

Sorry for the late reply, but I just now got a chance to try again.

I would expect the original US 4K Extreme to be able to do that, but don't currently have access to test for sure.

What frame rate are you using? 24 should work.

yes, 24

Start a new project, and in the Project Settings Video Monitoring area, with Video Bit Depth set to 10 bit, select Video Format to UHD 23.976 or 24, and none of the checkboxes below Video Format checked, and Single Link SDI and verify you are getting that out of the A port.

Now enable "Use dual outputs on SDI". Do you get an error?

yes

If not, enable the "Use 4:4:4 SDI" checkbox. Does that generate an error?

yes

I can imagine 4:4:4 UHD might not work. I can imagine 12 bit might not work.

1080p works. Also 2k. It's when I switch to UHD. I also have an 4k Mini-Monitor in another pci slot, if that could be the issue. I tried plugging the USB connection into the computer and it says it needs to update, which it does. But it still doesn't work, and if I plug in the usb connection again, it will again claim to need an update. Every time I plug in the usb in fact. Could it be some sort of failing update?

[Dwaine Maggart]

To clear up a bit of possible confusion (after re-reading the entire thread again) the DeckLink 4K Extreme and 4K Extreme 12G cards can NOT do dual SDR/HDR in UHD. The only DeckLink card that can do that is the 8K Pro.

Since the dual HDR/SDR mode essentially puts the I/O device into stereo 3D mode to get the 2 separate streams, the way to verify what resolutions any given I/O device can support in dual HDR/SDR mode is to look at the Tech Specs of the I/O device, in the SDI Standards area, and see what the maximum "3D Video Standards SDI" resolution is.

To clear up a bit of possible confusion (after re-reading the entire thread again) the DeckLink 4K Extreme and 4K Extreme 12G cards can NOT do dual SDR/HDR in UHD. The only DeckLink card that can do that is the 8K Pro.

Since the dual HDR/SDR mode essentially puts the I/O device into stereo 3D mode to get the 2 separate streams, the way to verify what resolutions any given I/O device can support in dual HDR/SDR mode is to look at the Tech Specs of the I/O device, in the SDI Standards area, and see what the maximum "3D Video Standards SDI" resolution is.

Are you sure about this?
The Ultra Studio 4K Extreme 3 lists "2160p23.98" under 3D Video Standards. So it can do UHD HDR with tone mapping simultaneously?

[Dwaine Maggart]

Yes, the UltraStudio 4K Extreme 3 supports UHD and 4K HDR/SDR mode. With the 3D VPID caveat I mentioned above.

I only just saw the replies, sorry for the delay. I have the older thunderbolt 2 version, and I can't find the tech specs for that exact model. Is that archived somewhere? Also could any of what I mentioned before be my issue?

I also have an 4k Mini-Monitor in another pci slot, if that could be the issue. I tried plugging the USB connection into the computer and it says it needs to update, which it does. But it still doesn't work, and if I plug in the usb connection again, it will again claim to need an update. Every time I plug in the usb in fact. Could it be some sort of failing update?

[Dwaine Maggart]

With a bit of digging, I found the specs for the original TB2 UltraStudio 4K Extreme, and indeed it does NOT support 3D stereo SDI outputs above 2K. So what you are seeing would be expected.

I have to admit I'm surprised by that. But that's the deal.

Thank you for figuring this out. Is there a way I could get a copy of that spec sheet? I've been looking for it for a while. I bought it after the page had already been removed from the website.

[Dwaine Maggart]

Here you go.

Thank you again!

Personally I don't understand the idea of having both 709 and hdr at the same time: they are misleading and meant to always be seeing separately, together you will make an inferior product.

When I do hdr, I do only hdr, and when I do sdr, I only do sdr.

Personally I don't understand the idea of having both 709 and hdr at the same time: they are misleading and meant to always be seeing separately, together you will make an inferior product.

When I do hdr, I do only hdr, and when I do sdr, I only do sdr.

Isn't the theory when preforming a Dolby Vision SDR trim that it's an advantage having HDR as a reference to match the SDR convert to?

It's kind of nice to see both SDR and HDR simultaneously and quickly identify shots where the Dolby Vision Auto Analysis strayed away from the HDR color grade intentions.

Personally I don't understand the idea of having both 709 and hdr at the same time: they are misleading and meant to always be seeing separately, together you will make an inferior product.

When I do hdr, I do only hdr, and when I do sdr, I only do sdr.

Yes, it will be different. The idea I think is for the colorist to see how far off the SDR is from the HDR and tweak it.

Personally I don't understand the idea of having both 709 and hdr at the same time: they are misleading and meant to always be seeing separately, together you will make an inferior product.

When I do hdr, I do only hdr, and when I do sdr, I only do sdr.

Yes, it will be different. The idea I think is for the colorist to see how far off the SDR is from the HDR and tweak it.

But you simply cannot: you will either try to drastically brighten the SDR or reducing the HDR, making a mess in both.

Personally I don't understand the idea of having both 709 and hdr at the same time: they are misleading and meant to always be seeing separately, together you will make an inferior product.

When I do hdr, I do only hdr, and when I do sdr, I only do sdr.

Isn't the theory when preforming a Dolby Vision SDR trim that it's an advantage having HDR as a reference to match the SDR convert to?

It's kind of nice to see both SDR and HDR simultaneously and quickly identify shots where the Dolby Vision Auto Analysis strayed away from the HDR color grade intentions.

No. You will blinded by the HDR by having both at the same time and never properly judge the SDR for what it is.

Let me explain the philosophy with an example:

Will you color an SDR master with a window next to you looking outside in the same field of view during normal daylight?

I would not.

But you simply cannot: you will either try to drastically brighten the SDR or reducing the HDR, making a mess in both.

Being in HDR does not always mean 600+ nits. In fact, content is usually 50 - 300 nits.
More importantly, it is not about making SDR look exactly like HDR or vice-versa, but to make better judgment on where to compromise. Is it better to push the shadows or the highlights? Hard clip or lower and compress.

Not to mention, some clients want to see both and compare.

Giving that client is the king (even when the choices are questionable), we will oblige.

Being in HDR does not always mean 600+ nits. In fact, content is usually 50 - 300 nits.

And why not? If the only display you have was a 1000 nits device, will you artificially limiting yourself to 50 nits?

Is as saying that you’re watching an IpadPro 5th generation constantly with the luminance down at 20% just because. If You look SDR on that device it is pretty up to 500/600 nits and it is not looking stupid, that is why the photographic ratio and intents are retained, independently of the absolute nit level.

However, as always, this is just my opinion, clients I usually work with, like this approach and therefore I oblige…..

Giving that client is the king (even when the choices are questionable), we will oblige.

Being in HDR does not always mean 600+ nits. In fact, content is usually 50 - 300 nits.

And why not? If the only display you have was a 1000 nits device, will you artificially limiting yourself to 50 nits?

With a log gamma curve, the difference between 300 nits to 600 nit is not quite the same as 100 to 200. You lose perceptual contrast as you push closer to 1000.

To clear up a bit of possible confusion (after re-reading the entire thread again) the DeckLink 4K Extreme and 4K Extreme 12G cards can NOT do dual SDR/HDR in UHD. The only DeckLink card that can do that is the 8K Pro.

Since the dual HDR/SDR mode essentially puts the I/O device into stereo 3D mode to get the 2 separate streams, the way to verify what resolutions any given I/O device can support in dual HDR/SDR mode is to look at the Tech Specs of the I/O device, in the SDI Standards area, and see what the maximum "3D Video Standards SDI" resolution is.

''Today we released Desktop Video 12.4.1 update for DeckLink 4K Extreme 12G which adds support for additional 2K DCI and 4K DCI film formats up to 60p. This makes it possible for you to work on a wider range of digital cinema projects in DaVinci Resolve.

In addition, this update adds support for VANC data pass through when keying. This means that when you’re working with visual effects and graphics, any ancillary data included in your SDI live video feed such as closed captions will pass through and appear on the output.
This release also fixes a rare bug that would cause the SDI output to flicker when rapidly switching between Ultra HD video modes during playback.''

Hi Dwaine,

Does that update add UHD output support for Dolby's Dual Monitor configuration to the DeckLink 4K Extreme 12G?

[Dwaine Maggart]

No, it does not. That card is not capable of outputting stereo 3D SDI signal at anything above 2K.

Stereo output mode is required to output 2 individual SDI signals at the same tine.

Listen to Walter Volpatto; he really knows what he is talking about. I have worked in HDR for Netflix for the last six months, and Mr. Volpatto is 100% correct. You create the HDR master first and go through the entire creative process in HDR, including any adit changes and adding the final Mix for review. Then and only then, run the Dolby Vision Trim pass and make your adjustments. What I found in my experience is that a well-colored HDR master will only have minor tweaks going to SDR. Another thing to remember in this misguided thinking of running two monitors simultaneously is that the SDR monitor running some simple conversion from HDR to SDR is not the same as the Dolby Vision trim pass. The SDR monitor will show you something but not what you see when you finally do the DB pass.

You are running the risk of creating the "black hole of mistrust" in your monitors, which one is right? Lowered Brightness HDR or over bright SDR?

Hopefully, this helped.

Tal

Listen to Walter Volpatto; he really knows what he is talking about. I have worked in HDR for Netflix for the last six months, and Mr. Volpatto is 100% correct. You create the HDR master first and go through the entire creative process in HDR, including any adit changes and adding the final Mix for review. Then and only then, run the Dolby Vision Trim pass and make your adjustments. What I found in my experience is that a well-colored HDR master will only have minor tweaks going to SDR. Another thing to remember in this misguided thinking of running two monitors simultaneously is that the SDR monitor running some simple conversion from HDR to SDR is not the same as the Dolby Vision trim pass. The SDR monitor will show you something but not what you see when you finally do the DB pass.

You are running the risk of creating the "black hole of mistrust" in your monitors, which one is right? Lowered Brightness HDR or over bright SDR?

Hopefully, this helped.

Tal

We do HDR content for Netflix, Disney and Hulu (and soon Paramount) constantly. We have 2 shows right now.

Especially with film based material, the HDR grades are often peaking at 300nits, and even then only in small areas of the screen.

Yes, having two monitors setup one that is brighter is going to affect your perception, but saying it is like grading with a big window open to one side of you is a very large exaggeration.

We grade in HDR and derive everything else from that, but having both and SDR and HDR monitor setup in the same room is extremely useful, and there are times when it makes sense to be able to look from one to the other.

Regardless, it is important to know how this can be achieved technically to work, even if some people won't have the need for it. The 3D flag is problematic for a lot of equipment, so is the 8K Decklink Pro the only true solution from BMD for this? Will the 8K Decklink Pro also work correctly with other software like Nucoda etc.

Especially with film based material, the HDR grades are often peaking at 300nits, and even then only in small areas of the screen.

no they are not... that is how an artist arbitrarily decided to do it, not "how it is done".

the Nolan movies collections HDR re-masters where done with peaks up to 1200nits (Kostas was the colorist for those, done at Fotokem), 2001 space odyssey pass freely 1000nits.

With a bit of digging, I found the specs for the original TB2 UltraStudio 4K Extreme, and indeed it does NOT support 3D stereo SDI outputs above 2K. So what you are seeing would be expected.

I have to admit I'm surprised by that. But that's the deal.

Is there an HDMI-only solution if my monitor does not have an SDI connection?

With a bit of digging, I found the specs for the original TB2 UltraStudio 4K Extreme, and indeed it does NOT support 3D stereo SDI outputs above 2K. So what you are seeing would be expected.

I have to admit I'm surprised by that. But that's the deal.

Is there an HDMI-only solution if my monitor does not have an SDI connection?

Not as far as I know. The HDMI output is always set to the primary color profile in all of the BM products we have used.

The Decklink 4k Extreme 12G tech specs were updated after the Desktop Video 12.4.2 update to reflect 4k stereo support:

3D Video Standards SDI
4Kp23.98 DCI, 4Kp24 DCI, 4Kp25 DCI, 4Kp29.97 DCI, 4Kp30 DCI

but the dual HDR SDR output still seems to only works up to HD.

No, it does not. That card is not capable of outputting stereo 3D SDI signal at anything above 2K.

Stereo output mode is required to output 2 individual SDI signals at the same tine.

[Dwaine Maggart]

I think that specs update has to be in error, but I'll try to confirm.

Listen to Walter Volpatto; he really knows what he is talking about. I have worked in HDR for Netflix for the last six months, and Mr. Volpatto is 100% correct. You create the HDR master first and go through the entire creative process in HDR, including any adit changes and adding the final Mix for review. Then and only then, run the Dolby Vision Trim pass and make your adjustments. What I found in my experience is that a well-colored HDR master will only have minor tweaks going to SDR. Another thing to remember in this misguided thinking of running two monitors simultaneously is that the SDR monitor running some simple conversion from HDR to SDR is not the same as the Dolby Vision trim pass. The SDR monitor will show you something but not what you see when you finally do the DB pass.

You are running the risk of creating the "black hole of mistrust" in your monitors, which one is right? Lowered Brightness HDR or over bright SDR?

Hopefully, this helped.

Tal

We do HDR content for Netflix, Disney and Hulu (and soon Paramount) constantly. We have 2 shows right now.

Walter is a Senior Colorist at Company 3. He has probably worked on half the stuff on Parmount Plus. He knows what he is talking about.

[Dwaine Maggart]

I've verified that the current specs are indeed correct. Dual SDI HDR/SDR outputs do work at UHD and 4K DCI resolutions with the DeckLink 4K Extreme 12G card with Desktop Video 12.4.1 or higher.

That said, any BMD I/O device other than the DeckLink 8K Pro (properly configured) will still have the issue of a stereo 3D VPID on the SDI outputs. Which some devices don't like. If the devices you are feeding can ignore the 3D VPID, great. If not, you'll still need to use a DeckLink 8K Pro card.

Sorry to revive this thread, but have a question for Dwaine or whomever's been through this: Been using the Decklink 8k for a while now, and are looking to upgrade to apple silicon. The decklink will have to be in a Thunderbolt enclosure if we're going to keep it. I'm seeing a lot of differing anecdotes out there on how the Decklink 8K performs in a sonnet enclosure.

Can it still do dual output dolbyvision in a sonnet echo?

Sorry to revive this thread, but have a question for Dwaine or whomever's been through this: Been using the Decklink 8k for a while now, and are looking to upgrade to apple silicon. The decklink will have to be in a Thunderbolt enclosure if we're going to keep it. I'm seeing a lot of differing anecdotes out there on how the Decklink 8K performs in a sonnet enclosure.

Can it still do dual-output Dolby Vision in a sonnet echo?

Decklink 8K Pro is PCIe 8x Gen 3. That is 8GB/s or 6400 Gb/s.

Thunderbolt 4 is 5GB/s or 40Gb/s.

4K DCI @ 10 bit @ 60 FPS needs 21+ Gb/s.
Add tone mapping then you potentially over the 40Gb limit of TB4.

However 4K DCI @ 10bit @ 24 fps requires only 11Gb/s of bandwidth. Double that for tone mapping. That is under the 40Gb/s limit of TB4.