12K BRAW on Windows

It has to be a user problem here, but I'll ask.

I have a UMP12K and I shoot video in 12K constant quality 0. Yea; the files are large; however, I have the space. But my problem starts when I try to bring the footage into Resolve.

I import the file at full resolution..., and the problems begin. I immediately get an out of GPU memory. If I set the resolution to 8/4/1K I do not get the error.

So my question is: How do I work with 12K footage without having to have 1TB of GPU memory? My goal is to create 12K VFX plates to use.

How much gpu mem do you have? You could try turning off gpu use for braw decoding in system settings decode options, this should free some mem.

Or get a Mac with unified memory.
I can play 12K in an HD timeline on a MacBook Air M1, even more so on the machine in my sig.

No flame wars, please, this is from experience and, yes, I get Mem Full with 8 GB VRAM under Windows when trying that.

I can play 12K in an HD timeline on a MacBook Air M1, even more so on the machine in my sig.

HD timeline will decode 12K braw at 2K, which does not help with the original problem of actually decoding and writing at 12K res one bit.

What's your GPU? I actually switched to Mac to get rid of the 'out of memory' errors, unfortunately they were a bit too common on the Windows side for me.

Well, with the machine in my sig, I can render from 12K in UHD without a memory problem.
I should try some 8K

Works fine for me with 24GB.My guess is that you will be SOL with less than 16GB.

Ok, did a short test: 12K in an 8K timeline. Rendering into 8K UHD H.265 10 bit 4:2:2 took about 2.5 times the video's runtime. Seems most of the time is spent when starting up the render, I'll need to try something longer.
No memory error, the result is playing smoothly.

Edit: I was right, one minute is rendering just a tad over 2 minutes.

Works fine for me with 24GB.My guess is that you will be SOL with less than 16GB.

I have a 2080 TI w/ 11GB now; however, I have a 3090 lying next to me awaiting another 8 Pin PSU cable to fill out the requirement for 3, 8 Pin connectors on the 3090. My PS is 1,000 watts, but came with only 2, 8 pin GPU cables.

Oh, I just imported into a 8K timeline and my GPU does not complain although it is at 10.2GB used.

12K footage in an 8K timeline GPU usage

8K footage GPU memory.jpg (7.29 KiB) Viewed 3945 times

Update: I'm doing an 8K render of 370 frames (of 12K footage) at 8K to a H.265 QT container. Maxed out GPU and time has steadily climbed from 9 minutes to (currently) 2:30:43. The machine specs are: 2 xenon 6285R CPUs, 128GB RAM, rendering to a NVMe disk.

Update II: I left the computer when the render time ratcheted up to 5+ hours. I'll go into the studio tomorrow and see exactly how long it took to render on a maxed out 11GB GPU. Oh, and I am a little closer to inserting the 3090 into the system as the manufacture of the system will sell me a cable with another two PCIe 8 pin connectors.

There you go. But temporal effects may get you over the edge.

Ok, came into the studio today and resolve was not up to over 7 days to render on a completely loaded GPU:

New render time 18 hours later

Resolve 18 render time.jpg (10.99 KiB) Viewed 3841 times

So i killed the render. I'm confused why resolve did not remove the locks on GPU & system memory. Ok, I can understand system memory, but GPU?

Resolve system memory

Resolve 18 memory usage.jpg (30.17 KiB) Viewed 3841 times

The only way I found to clear this is to kill resolve and all its children. I can do this through "ctrl+q" or just by killing the PID. In the end, my 8 pin PCIe cable is on order and I am eagerly awaiting its arrival. With 35GB of GPU RAM on the computer and another 24GB in the network, I hope to never see this issue.

Are you sure VRAM adds? i very much doubt it.

Are you sure VRAM adds? i very much doubt it.

Not sure what you mean? I'm showing "private & working set" memory numbers.

Update i: The numbers displayed are all physical memory. There is 128GB of physical ram on the box.

VRAM does not add for DR. On the contrary: if you have one card with, e.g. 8 GB and one with 12, DR will only work with up to 8 GB until you disable that card.

Are you sure VRAM adds? i very much doubt it.

Not sure what you mean? I'm showing "private & working set" memory numbers.

Update i: The numbers displayed are all physical memory. There is 128GB of physical ram on the box.

I answered to this:

With 35GB of GPU RAM on the computer and another 24GB in the network

[Dwaine Maggart]

GPU VRAM is not additive in Resolve. If you have a 24GB GPU and a 11GB GPU, Resolve has 11GB of VRAM to work with.

11Gb of VRAM is not going to go very far with an 8K and probably won't work at all with a 12K timeline.

He says he wants to make 12K plates. My PC more or less catches on fire on a 12K timeline.

He says he wants to make 12K plates. My PC more or less catches on fire on a 12K timeline.

12K Q0 is a beast. For a few projects 12K 18:1 was more than enough and I rendered out 8K to DNxHR 12 Bit 444.

I've found rendering at source resolution (12K 18:1) to DNxHR a 30 second clip will take about 5 minutes. My build is a Ryzen 5700G and RX6800 XT, which is budget friendly and admittedly overworked, but hasn't caught fire yet.

It works (eventually), it's just a huge departure from normal 4K timeline work, which is still screaming fast on my PC. I think the AMD cards will swap to system memory if you run out of VRAM, which is slow, but prevents crashes.

VRAM does not add for DR. On the contrary: if you have one card with, e.g. 8 GB and one with 12, DR will only work with up to 8 GB until you disable that card.

Good to know. So my studio will get a lot cooler since I will only be running the 24GB card and I'll take the 11GB card to another network render node. Now I have to figure out how to make all the computers running network renders work for me. Anyone out there built a render farm for resolve/fusion? I could use some tips and tricks.

I love learning.

[Dwaine Maggart]

Resolve doesn't support network render nodes, per se.

If you have Resolve Studio, it does support Remote Rendering, if you are using PostgreSQL project databases (17) / Network Project Libraries (18) and the remote render systems see the same storage as the system creating the project. That's where you add render tasks to a local machine Render Queue, and those render queue items can be assigned to remote render systems on the network.

I'm shifting over to the Cloud POD for storage and all systems have access to the POD; will this suffice? I assume I set the render node to reference the POD and just submit jobs to the render node which will do its thing: render, correct?

He says he wants to make 12K plates. My PC more or less catches on fire on a 12K timeline.

12K Q0 is a beast. For a few projects 12K 18:1 was more than enough and I rendered out 8K to DNxHR 12 Bit 444.

I've found rendering at source resolution (12K 18:1) to DNxHR a 30 second clip will take about 5 minutes. My build is a Ryzen 5700G and RX6800 XT, which is budget friendly and admittedly overworked, but hasn't caught fire yet.

Ok, 12K timeline, 12K render is a problem due to 16gb VRAM, but you made no comment about the 8K render. How did your 8K renders of 8K timeline (12K media) go, was Vram full and you were experiencing a slow down. I'm trying to get a better understanding of VRAM minimums

12K media on 8K timeline and 8K render , is 16gb VRAM enough to not cause the swapping out to system ram and slowdown, if convenient render that project check Vram and "Shared GPU memory" .

How did your 8K renders of 8K timeline (12K media) go, was Vram full and you were experiencing a slow down. I'm trying to get a better understanding of VRAM minimums

I have listed the step by step here to allow you to see where issues were and when things were just smooth sailing. Without further ado, here is what I found.

1) Reboot computer
2) Wait for everything to go quiescent
3) Start Resolve (GPU usage: 1.1GB)
3) Double click untitled project
4) Go to media (GPU usage: 1.4GB)
5) Bring up settings
6) Select 8K DCI
7) Set FPS to incoming video FPS (29.97) (GPU usage: 4.1GB)
8) Drop 12K shot int media pool, 11520x6480, 29.97, 10,604 frames (GPU usage: 7.0GB)
9) Right click media in pool and select "create timeline" (GPU usage: 9.7GB)
10) Jump to "edit" page (GPU usage: 9.8GB)
11) Scroll head to 6 seconds in
12) Cut Video 1 with ctrl+b
13) Select video & audio to right of cut
14) Delete video to right of cut (ctrl-x) (GPU usage: 7.9GB)
15) Save project (I'll explain in a minute why I do this)
16) Jump to "delivery" page (GPU usage: 7.9GB)
17) Select "browse" button
18) Jump to NVMe disk and enter file name
19) Select H.265 codec
20) Select audio panel, and deselect "export audio"
21) Save project again
22) Select video panel
23) Select "Add to render queue" (GPU usage: 7.4GB)
24) Select "render all" (GPU usage: 10.2GB)
25) Render fails, but never releases the GPU memory
26) Press ctrl+q
27) Restart resolve (GPU usage: 1.1GB)
28) Select the name of the project created earlier (GPU usage: 7.8GB)
29) Jump to deliver page
30) Select "job 1" (GPU usage: 8.6GB)
31) Select render all, select render on pop-up
32) Render completes in 14 seconds (GPU usage: 10.2GB)
33) Check GPU, after rendering it drops to 6.7GB

So the answer appears to be "it depends". I could not get a 10,000 frame video to render at all. I could get a 180 frame video to render in 14 seconds once I jumped through a bunch of hoops. So I would say your 16GB of VRAM is ok depending on what you do and don't do.

I did nothing to the video in the way of color grading as I was really only interested in the basics. One day I'll become a "tester" and run through all the permutations to see what works, but until then I know I need more than 11GB of VRAM to work with 12K footage. I also know I need to jump through hoops to just get the 8K to render, but only in small bytes.

While most likely not the answer you are looking for, it's the best I have. But I'm not from BM and it's their proclamations which really count. My hardware may create my issues since I am not using resolve on a dedicated NLE box. But I'll soon have 24GB of VRAM and I run the same tests on that to see what happens.

Ok, 12K timeline, 12K render is a problem due to 16gb VRAM, but you made no comment about the 8K render. How did your 8K renders of 8K timeline (12K media) go, was Vram full and you were experiencing a slow down. I'm trying to get a better understanding of VRAM minimums

12K media on 8K timeline and 8K render , is 16gb VRAM enough to not cause the swapping out to system ram and slowdown, if convenient render that project check Vram and "Shared GPU memory" .

It works without slowing down, a 30 second 12K 18:1 clip renders to 8K DCI 12 bit in 2 minutes.

12K-18-1-to-8K.png (17.89 KiB) Viewed 3297 times

So the answer appears to be "it depends". I could not get a 10,000 frame video to render at all. I could get a 180 frame video to render in 14 seconds once I jumped through a bunch of hoops. So I would say your 16GB of VRAM is ok depending on what you do and don't do.

I did nothing to the video in the way of color grading as I was really only interested in the basics. One day I'll become a "tester" and run through all the permutations to see what works, but until then I know I need more than 11GB of VRAM to work with 12K footage. I also know I need to jump through hoops to just get the 8K to render, but only in small bytes.

While most likely not the answer you are looking for, it's the best I have. But I'm not from BM and it's their proclamations which really count. My hardware may create my issues since I am not using resolve on a dedicated NLE box. But I'll soon have 24GB of VRAM and I run the same tests on that to see what happens.

What is the bit rate of some of these 12K Q0 files? I believe the average bit rate is put in the metadata. For example, I was able to render out 30 seconds of 12K Q0 that looks like about 500 mb/s to 8K DCI H265 in just under a minute. Then 30 seconds of 12K 5:1 in just over a minute to 8K DCI H265.

Both with the RX6800XT 16GB.

You might have more success with constant bit rates, though I imagine once you have the 3090 installed things will be more or less smooth. With the prices down on those 3090s I'm definitely eyeing it up so I'd be interested to read more of your results.

What is the bit rate of some of these 12K Q0 files? I believe the average bit rate is put in the metadata.

I can't find the bit rate in the metadata. Here is a show of the file loaded into Resolve:

12KQ0 -- File Info.jpg (36.43 KiB) Viewed 3255 times

Or this from mediainfo:

General
Complete name : 1.braw
Format : QuickTime
Format/Info : Original Apple specifications
File size : 7.23 GiB
Duration : 8 s 709 ms
Overall bit rate : 7 134 Mb/s
Recorded date : 2022-08-01
Encoded date : UTC 2022-08-01 15:56:52
Tagged date : UTC 2022-08-01 15:56:52
Writing library : Apple QuickTime
camera_type : Blackmagic URSA Mini Pro 12K
tone_curve_contrast : 1.000
tone_curve_saturation : 1.000
tone_curve_midpoint : 0.409
tone_curve_highlights : 1.000
tone_curve_shadows : 1.000
tone_curve_video_black_level : Unknown kind of value!
viewing_bmdgen : Unknown kind of value!
viewing_gamut : Blackmagic Design
crop_origin : Unknown kind of value!
crop_size : Unknown kind of value!
braw_compression_ratio : Q0
multicard_volume_number : Unknown kind of value!
multicard_volume_count : Unknown kind of value!
format_frame_rate : Unknown kind of value!
sensor_area_captured : Unknown kind of value!
manufacturer : Blackmagic Design
camera_id : be41763b-d7b8-4693-b30c-4c2d5f496f11
shutter_type : Angle
analog_gain : 1.000
analog_gain_is_constant : Unknown kind of value!
viewing_gamma : Blackmagic Design Film
anamorphic_enable : Unknown kind of value!
firmware_version : 7.7.2
clip_number : A014_08011156_C001
reel_name : 14
scene : 2
take : 98
good_take : false
environment : exterior
day_night : night
camera_number : A
.multicard_timecode : Unknown kind of value!
braw_codec_bitrate : Unknown kind of value!

Video
ID : 1
Format : brvl
Codec ID : brvl
Duration : 8 s 709 ms
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 7 131 Mb/s
Width : 12 336 pixels
Height : 6 504 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 1.897
Frame rate mode : Constant
Frame rate : 29.970 (30000/1001) FPS
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 2.966
Stream size : 7.23 GiB (100%)
Language : English
Encoded date : UTC 2022-08-01 15:56:52
Tagged date : UTC 2022-08-01 15:56:52

Audio
ID : 2
Format : PCM
Format settings : Little / Signed
Codec ID : in24
Duration : 8 s 709 ms
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 2 304 kb/s
Channel(s) : 2 channels
Sampling rate : 48.0 kHz
Bit depth : 24 bits
Stream size : 2.39 MiB (0%)
Language : English
Encoded date : UTC 2022-08-01 15:56:52
Tagged date : UTC 2022-08-01 15:56:52

Other
ID : 3
Type : Time code
Format : QuickTime TC
Duration : 8 s 709 ms
Frame rate : 29.970 (30000/1001) FPS
Time code of first frame : 11:56:51:29
Time code of last frame : 11:57:00:19
Time code, striped : Yes
Language : English
Encoded date : UTC 2022-08-01 15:56:52
Tagged date : UTC 2022-08-01 15:56:52

Here you are: Bit rate : 7 131 Mb/s

Here you are: Bit rate : 7 131 Mb/s

Whats the 7 for?

Update I: It appears from looking at the file into, the software has determined the bit rate to be 7,131. For some reason, the software does not include the comma.

7131Mbit, so around 900MB/sec. For today's NVME it's nothing special.

Or get a Mac with unified memory.
I can play 12K in an HD timeline on a MacBook Air M1, even more so on the machine in my sig.

No flame wars, please, this is from experience and, yes, I get Mem Full with 8 GB VRAM under Windows when trying that.

This means about nothing as 12K in HD timeline means 12K is debayered (and also in case of BRAW decoded if I'm correct ) at 1 or 2K, so except reading speed you need resources for just about 1 or 2K file (maybe bit more depending on Resolve internals).
Turn off optimised playback in preferences and then check

Resolve engine requires a lot of VRAM and you either have enough or not for given resolution. If there is not enough it will start choking massively. I don't think there is much you can do about it (well you can turn off BRAW decoding on GPU). More VRAM or different tool. Not every tool is so VRAM hungry.

7131Mbit, so around 900MB/sec. For today's NVME it's nothing special.

This is the bit rate of the braw file, not the NVMe.

I know and said for today's NVME deliver 900MB/sec is nothing special, so playing back such a file when it comes to storage requirements is easy to achieve.
If you tried to play 12K DXP or EXR then story would be different.

In DR, the codec bitrate is displayed in the Camera metadata, right under the compression ratio.

Or get a Mac with unified memory.
I can play 12K in an HD timeline on a MacBook Air M1...

I too can play the 12K into a HD timeline, and if I watch what I do, I can play 12K into an 8K timeline all day long. My problem is 12K raw in resolve. Dwaine was very helpful with his explanation. I'm just working the edges to see where the sweet spot is for the different resolutions. So far, 12K needs more VRAM. If I load a small 12KCQ video (around 300 frames worth) I can deliver it with an issue.

When I start to grade and add filters and such, and things start to fall apart. But if I save the project. Close Resolve. Start Resolve, and then deliver with everything in place: there is no issue delivering at 12K. It's just such a chore to run this workflow.

I'm going to add as much VRAM as I can. Today it's 24GB on the 3090. Tomorrow it will be an A6000 with 48GB. It would be easier if Blackmagic could map all the VRAM into a single system and then work on it as a single contiguous memory space. Maybe Blackmagic could use NVLink.

NVLink enables professional applications to easily scale memory and performance with multi-GPU configurations

And I assure you I wouldn't flame you. I looked at the Mac Studio. But at $6k for a single use platform just couldn't justify the acquisition. The A6000 costs $5K, so I would have actually saved a grand and had better expandability in the future. And everything I have today will continue to work in the future without having to spend 10s of thousands of dollars.

Now if we can only get BM to create a render farm, we'd all be able to render massive 12K projects in minutes. What about it BM? I analyzed the render farm Pixar had in the 2000s. Our goal was to move them off their current platform and onto something more flexible. They had lots of small compute engines all tied into a single render behemoth.

I think there are better software for 8K+ projects etc. but they cost a lot in most cases.
If you want to do it on budget you need to be inventive, but you don't have much of possibilities.
Resolve is good, but it's not really designed for extreme performance. 12K is not a standard project.

Company where I worked had 1000s machines in datacenter outside London which was constantly rendering But you also need tools which can use farm rendering.

Basic question on Resolve. Why is there no 12K setting in the resolution tabs? I have to enter the video resolution as a custom everywhere.

Because it's not any standard.
12K is just what BM uses in 1 of their camera. That's about it for 12K today.

IMHO, even with the best lenses it’s difficult to see a difference between a 12K frame vs an 8K frame out of that camera.

xK Bayer based camera can't resolve xK final debayered image resolution.
What 1 camera can resolve with eg. 4K sensor, 2nd one can do with eg. 3K sensor (for typical real case image).
Add lenses, low pass filters and K is just a meaningless measure in practice.

BM 12K won't be anywhere close to resolve "real" 12K. It's just some high resolution image. I would not be surprised that some 8K camera can resolve actually more resolution. Regardless it's not that important anyway as today's cameras struggle with other parameters- they don't really lack in resolution.

Because it's not any standard.
12K is just what BM uses in 1 of their camera. That's about it for 12K today.

Of course I'm not looking for a "standard". I am looking to take BM's 12K camera and use BM software to manipulate images produced by that camera. It would be a "closed system". Nothing in the standards world, until what BM does becomes a norm in that world. Then we can talk standardization.

Till then, just want to push the limits of a companies technology.

I think there are better software for 8K+ projects etc. but they cost a lot in most cases.
If you want to do it on budget you need to be inventive, but you don't have much of possibilities.
Resolve is good, but it's not really designed for extreme performance. 12K is not a standard project.

Company where I worked had 1000s machines in datacenter outside London which was constantly rendering But you also need tools which can use farm rendering.

Yep, I saw many farms in a previous life. And each farm developed the tools as the needs for the tools progressed in every case. Nothing different here. If Blackmagic wants to compete in all facets of the ecosystem, you have to push the limits as Blackmagic did with the 12K sensor.

Yes, but it may need eg. new engine which requires money, time and resources.
No idea how BM sales look like, but their products are not that inventive anymore and in my eyes lost momentum. Also SDI world keeps shifting into IP world more and more. They need something “different” like they done in the past. Resolve is still far from being “finished” fully featured ( for pro and prosumer market) product. Competition already moving into new territories ( cloud, IP etc. ) where BM is still shaping Resolve core features.

I just tried new Edius with S3 integration and it’s crazy good implementation. You basically have 10gbit speed like it would be local disk. It’s not for 12K projects, but 4K is not a problem.
Resolve still has no ProRes export on PC It’s probably 3rd time I had to ditch it for a project because of this. Very annoying and doesn’t help with sales. I went elsewhere.

If you're ok with the Fusion Studio toolkit (the stand-alone Fusion Studio, not the one in Resolve) there is already support for render farms, no additional license needed for the render nodes. Depending on the features you use, it can run on the CPU only so you don't need crazy amounts of VRAM.

Infrastructure requirements will be... high.

If you're ok with the Fusion Studio toolkit (the stand-alone Fusion Studio, not the one in Resolve) there is already support for render farms, no additional license needed for the render nodes. Depending on the features you use, it can run on the CPU only so you don't need crazy amounts of VRAM.

Infrastructure requirements will be... high.

Yep, I own a copy of studio (well both studios), however, my issue is I want 12K plates for fusion work and it appears resolve does not create better than 8k. Or at least I have not found the correct combinations of codecs and settings to create 12K. Although time is on my side and I'll just fiddle till I get closer.

Thanks for the heads up though.

I'm asking what is probably a series of dumb questions but nonetheless...,

Why would you output VFX plates in H265? Wouldn't you use an uncompressed video codec for a plate shot? Wouldn't that be easier for output from Resolve as there is less processing, and then you could use a different program to make the h265 version?

Also is your issue a GPU problem or a GPU/CPU issue? you already have a great GPU but I would think you would need an exotic CPU for your exotic camera? A Ryzen 5900WX series processor means you only need one computer instead of networking.

I hope to get a URSA 12K in the next year or so and I have read this thread with some interest.

Regards,
GC

I'm asking what is probably a series of dumb questions but nonetheless...,

Why would you output VFX plates in H265? Wouldn't you use an uncompressed video codec for a plate shot? Wouldn't that be easier for output from Resolve as there is less processing, and then you could use a different program to make the h265 version?

Also is your issue a GPU problem or a GPU/CPU issue? you already have a great GPU but I would think you would need an exotic CPU for your exotic camera? A Ryzen 5900WX series processor means you only need one computer instead of networking.

I hope to get a URSA 12K in the next year or so and I have read this thread with some interest.

Regards,
GC

I have a dual Xenon system, so plenty of power to go around. My network renderer has a pair of Xenons, just not as powerfull and a little less memory, although the GPU is a little better. Additionally, H.265 is just one of the settings I'm playing with. I do not change codecs in this thread for consistency.

it appears resolve does not create better than 8k. Or at least I have not found the correct combinations of codecs and settings to create 12K.

Resolve Studio timelines can be up to 32Kx32K. You're hitting a limit for a specific video encoder. Don't use H.265 for this, use VXF workflows for VFX work. Like EXR (yeah, I know, file size...).

Your dual Xeons are nothing that powerful for 12K h265, which itself is rather last choice for your need.
12K is out of Nvidia h265 encoding capabilities.
Use DPX, EXR or at least DNxHR 444.

Half float exr-s with dwa compression is what I would do, dpx-s are humongous overkill as they have no compression and there isn’t that much detail in 12K braw to actually get anything from lossy or no compression.