Another odd behavior with Extend Edit in Trim vs Edit mode

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Joe Shapiro

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Another odd behavior with Extend Edit in Trim vs Edit mode

PostSun Aug 07, 2022 1:27 am

18.0.1

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Re: Another odd behavior with Extend Edit in Trim vs Edit mo

PostSun Aug 07, 2022 2:02 am

It looks normal to me as explained in the manual.
In Trim mode, selected edit points will ripple instead of resizing affected clips. However, to simplify
multi-track extend edit operations when using the Trim tool, the lowest numbered video track
with auto-select enabled defines the amount by which the extend edit will ripple the rest of the
Timeline; all selected edit points on other tracks are simply resized to the position of the playhead.
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Re: Another odd behavior with Extend Edit in Trim vs Edit mo

PostSun Aug 07, 2022 2:03 am

This is one that I expected. Why should this be odd? The ripple trim moves everything after that edit forward. Just like a speed trim below 100% with ripple.
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Re: Another odd behavior with Extend Edit in Trim vs Edit mo

PostSun Aug 07, 2022 2:05 am

Yup I agree that behavior matches the manual.
It sure isn’t what I’d expect to have happen though.

Please nobody tell me to forget everything I know and read the 4000 page manual.


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Re: Another odd behavior with Extend Edit in Trim vs Edit mo

PostSun Aug 07, 2022 2:08 am

Hardy- wrote:This is one that I expected. Why should this be odd? The ripple trim moves everything after that edit forward. Just like a speed trim below 100% with ripple.
To me if both sides of an edit are selected it’s just not reasonable to expect a ripple. That’s the disconnect for me. It’s doing the same thing as if I’d selected just one side of the Edit.

Maybe I’m in the minority on this but it sure feels odd.


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Re: Another odd behavior with Extend Edit in Trim vs Edit mo

PostSun Aug 07, 2022 2:18 am

I see, you are focussing the fact that two sides are selected (two green vertical lines).

My focus is the fact that the second selected side is the side of a non-existing clip. There is no clip there. The second selection is a "ghost selection".

Now the design question is: Should a ghost selection be treated like a real selection? :-)


Edit: Even if it were not a "ghost" selection but a real selection, this seems to be consistent with that other double-side stuff we discussed in that other thread an hour ago.
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Re: Another odd behavior with Extend Edit in Trim vs Edit mo

PostSun Aug 07, 2022 2:28 am

Hardy- wrote:My focus is the fact that the second selected side is the side of a non-existing clip. There is no clip there. The second selection is a "ghost selection".
Now the design question is: Should a ghost selection be treated like a real selection? :-)


Astute point! So I figured I'd try it with no "ghost selection." In this case Extend Edit doesn't ripple in Trim mode - it rolls like in Edit mode. Is this consistent? It's making my head hurt trying to keep track of all these different behaviors.

I then added a 1 frame gap between the clips so there'd be a "ghost selection" and it rippled again - but in a way that again blew my mind. Here's the video:

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Re: Another odd behavior with Extend Edit in Trim vs Edit mo

PostSun Aug 07, 2022 3:20 am

Haha, chaos. Well, yes, I think it makes sense, actually. Everything right of the cut ripples to the left, and since that audio clip is not linked with its video clip (just audio side selected, not video side), the video clip ripples into the left footage. Another design solution in that case may be: Block this kind of edit movement. Do nothing. Do nothing in order to keep the user mentally stable, haha.

(Just as it does nothing when trying to expand a transition that has not enough flesh. It won't move the transition into the opposite, fleshy direction. It just does nothing.)

Very complicated. I wouldn't use any ripple mode in such a case anyway. Why? Because I know I'm unable to predict the consequences.
Last edited by Hardy- on Sun Aug 07, 2022 3:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Another odd behavior with Extend Edit in Trim vs Edit mo

PostSun Aug 07, 2022 3:24 am

It’s just rather different - and much more complicated to my mind - rules than in FCP7 and, I think, Premiere.

If it were different to be better that’s one thing. But I don’t see how that might be so. Sure violates “principle of least amazement” for me.


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Re: Another odd behavior with Extend Edit in Trim vs Edit mo

PostSun Aug 07, 2022 4:03 am

Joe Shapiro wrote:Please nobody tell me to forget everything I know and read the 4000 page manual.

Forget everything you know about other software -- Resolve is a different program. The section of the manual on Editing is less than 300 pages long, and the "The Editor’s Guide to DaVinci Resolve" is a concise, easy-to-read guide available for free on BMD's training site:

https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/produc ... e/training

Joe Shapiro wrote:It’s just rather different - and much more complicated to my mind - rules than in FCP7 and, I think, Premiere.

Have you tried FCPX? :shock:
marc wielage, csi • VP/color & workflow • chroma | hollywood
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Re: Another odd behavior with Extend Edit in Trim vs Edit mo

PostSun Aug 07, 2022 4:12 am

Oh sigh. I know you’re a super experienced colorist but have you edited full-time? Full-time with Resolve?

All these little things add up. Resolve as a color program has tons of polish. Not so for the editing part. My experience is far from unique.

Just trying to help smooth out the bumps that I’m finding while using it daily to edit a feature.


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Re: Another odd behavior with Extend Edit in Trim vs Edit mo

PostSun Aug 07, 2022 6:48 am

Joe Shapiro wrote:Resolve as a color program has tons of polish. Not so for the editing part. My experience is far from unique.

Just trying to help smooth out the bumps that I’m finding while using it daily to edit a feature.


I get the feeling it won't ever get there, sadly. Close enough to be used for finishing, but soup to nuts editing there's still too much missing/wrong/slow unfortunately.

Despite a great price point there's no demand for Resolve for editorial that I've seen (as in zero - there are the occasional requests for FCPx editors - otherwise the split for me is currently something like 75% PP, rest Avid).

Coupled with the grief you're likely to get when you turnover to ProTools, getting used to some weird trim behaviour is likely to be the least of your troubles!
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Re: Another odd behavior with Extend Edit in Trim vs Edit mo

PostSun Aug 07, 2022 7:53 am

Joe Shapiro wrote:Oh sigh. I know you’re a super experienced colorist but have you edited full-time? Full-time with Resolve?

No, but I have worked in post in Hollywood for 43 years, if that counts for anything. I've worked as a finishing editor on about a hundred indie features in the last 10 years, but that's more of a "hammer and crowbar" situation than a creative one, per se.

I think this boils down to one of those you can get used to anything deals, where if you used Resolve 10 hours a day for a few weeks and really zeroed-in on all the shortcuts and so on -- maybe even used the Speed Editor or the Editing Keyboard -- you'd find there are faster ways to work than what you're aware of. I try to be as "Zen-like" as I can with new software, and basically say: "OK, I've got to forget what I used before, and try to embrace the new way of doing things... because I've got work to get done." In other words, I spend less time fighting the interface and more time kind of absorbing it through osmosis.

I've had to learn 5 different versions of daVinci color in the last 30 years, going back to daVinci Classic, then the Renaissance, then the 888, then the daVinci 2K, then DaVinci Resolve. (And I also used at least 6 different control surfaces over that time, each of which had different functions and buttons in different places.) And in between some of them, I had to learn Pandora Pogle, Filmlight Baselight, and a few other systems. I just accept that change is kind of the nature of post: we have to roll with the punches and just deal with it.

If I can make a suggestion: consider using a macro keypad like the Elgato Streamdeck or the X-Keys. Both of them can speed up editing by just firing off multiple steps with one button, and it's a fast, elegant way to work. Also, using the 2-display option would let you put the bins on one monitor and the timeline on the other, plus a third display for the hero output. I won't say this is the same experience as Avid Media Composer, but I think it could work for a lot of feature applications.
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Re: Another odd behavior with Extend Edit in Trim vs Edit mo

PostSun Aug 07, 2022 4:29 pm

Thanks for your experience and helpful suggestions Marc. I agree with you that I can improve my personal experience with Resolve by using things like macros and control surfaces and those are indeed very useful suggestions.

The other part for me is I have two goals in this forum - one is to get help on what I’m doing right now. But the bigger goal is to help make Resolve a better product for everyone by communicating both the bugs and friction-inducing behaviors I find from my editor’s point of view. I’m trying to help make Resolve more of a viable choice amongst Premiere and Avid. I THINK that’s what BMD wants too.

The “Resolve is different - forget everything you know” approach can be fine for something like Avid that has a dominant market position. But Resolve is the upstart so it has to come to the users rather than telling them to jump through lots of hoops.

I’ve done 6 startup companies and know something about how easily friction in the user experience can lose the market. Zoom was the lowest friction virtual meeting software - mostly because all you had to do is click on a link and you were in the meeting. No download, no signup, no configuration. That’s why they won.

So Resolve, to raise their market share, would do well to focus on lowering friction, reducing barriers to use the software. The biggest of these is, imho, the learning curve.

Leverage previous knowledge and make the rest discoverable without reading the manual and you make Resolve a much easier product to try - and to potentially adopt.


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Re: Another odd behavior with Extend Edit in Trim vs Edit mo

PostSun Aug 07, 2022 4:31 pm

Trevor Asquerthian wrote:
Joe Shapiro wrote:Resolve as a color program has tons of polish. Not so for the editing part. My experience is far from unique.

Just trying to help smooth out the bumps that I’m finding while using it daily to edit a feature.


I get the feeling it won't ever get there, sadly. Close enough to be used for finishing, but soup to nuts editing there's still too much missing/wrong/slow unfortunately.

Despite a great price point there's no demand for Resolve for editorial that I've seen (as in zero - there are the occasional requests for FCPx editors - otherwise the split for me is currently something like 75% PP, rest Avid).

Coupled with the grief you're likely to get when you turnover to ProTools, getting used to some weird trim behaviour is likely to be the least of your troubles!


I hear you Trevor! I tend to be a “help the underdog” kind of person so I’m still trying. At some point I may bail but I’m still hoping.


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Re: Another odd behavior with Extend Edit in Trim vs Edit mo

PostSun Aug 07, 2022 4:43 pm

Joe Shapiro wrote:... I have two goals in this forum - one is to get help on what I’m doing right now. But the bigger goal is to help make Resolve a better product for everyone by communicating both the bugs and friction-inducing behaviors I find from my editor’s point of view. I’m trying to help make Resolve more of a viable choice amongst Premiere and Avid. I THINK that’s what BMD wants too.

I've noticed, Joe, and I applaud you for making the effort. I wish BMD would acknowledge that Resolve needs some polishing as an editorial tool and then enlist the help of folks like you to form a working group to move the ball forward. I'm not sure who they consult with at the moment to develop the editorial face of the product but clearly, more voices are needed. The only reason it matters so much to many of us is because we can see the potential of Resolve to be an amazing tool for editorial. Cheers
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Re: Another odd behavior with Extend Edit in Trim vs Edit mo

PostSun Aug 07, 2022 5:35 pm

Thanks Steve!


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