Blackmagic Forum

objective :
import an hdr image [.exr, .avif, .jxl, .heic] still containing 32 bpc floats hdr information obtained out of a conversion from an hdr .jxr screenshot and deliver it as an hdr video while keeping the hdr information.

issue :
as it is noticeable on hdr display comparing the original `colors2.exr` displayed on [hdr + wcg image viewer](https://apps.microsoft.com/detail/9PGN3 ... n-US&gl=US) and `resolve_hdr.mkv` [sourcedeliver](https://1drv.ms/f/s!AiUmCeW6ezhq91u2PtQcKVvayOk1), the hdr information at export get completely lost : the highlights are overexposed, the colorsare burnt and the saturation is lost, meaning hdr is lost in the resulting image no matter the container use [.exr, .avif, .jxl, .heic].

question :
is there a way to import an hdr image and deliver without loosing the hdr information at deliver ?

up

To get HDR out of Resolve, we normally start with Log material.

Do still cameras shoot that way?

Resolve can't import HDR stills formats and interpret them properly as HDR stills if it can import them at all. It can't import Avif or JPEF-XL and gives no error message whatsoever. It can import 32-bit EXR files but makes a complete mess of these in HDR projects. It can import some HEIC formats (e.g. HIF files from a Nikon Z8 tagged HLG Rec2020 but it does not seem to intepret the file properly as far as I can see and it may as well be an 8-bit Rec709 JPEG file. You can expand the dynamic range by grading but it is not the same as working with JPEG-XL or Avif

I use Final Cut Pro for HDR stills and it gives excellent results. JPEG-XL is the best format for color and file size in my opinion. Avif is restricted to 10-bit I believe and this is evident when compared to JPEG-XL (shadow detail for sure).

For anyone who is not up to date with this, Adobe introduced the ability to edit stills in HDR in Photoshop ACR over a year ago and a few months ago in Lightroom. It is very similar to editing HDR video and requires a HDR-capable screen. This is brand new in the world of stills and is limited by the fact that very few stills photographers have HDR screens. MacBook Pros with XDR screens work perfectly (apart from the small size so not ideal for editing as with video). The great thing is that you can grade original raw files in HDR in LR/ACR so you can rework any old raw file. HEIC files from camera are not as good as they are 10-bit only and everything is locked in (like a wide latitide JPEG).

It has nothing to do with the much older process of merging a set of stills taken a stop apart into a single file which is effectively compressing a high dynamic range scene into a low dynamic range file for viewing on an SDR screen and/or for printing. The terminology is potentially very confusing.

Jim Simon wrote:To get HDR out of Resolve, we normally start with Log material.

Do still cameras shoot that way?

Getting something out has little to do with data going in as it goes through Resolve’s color engine. You can oomph up a SDR jpg to hdr video if you want, makes no difference. Input is relevant only in the context of whether it actually can carry meaningful hdr data, log encoding is just one way to do that.

@mickspixels
thank for answering to the actual question !
you did actually confirmed that there is currently no way in resolve to import hdr still and keep the hdr information in it.
yes as you stated, camera raw and, it s possible to add, [affinity photo, krita, lightroom], are the only hdr still imaging software to have a correct management of hdr for displaying on actual hdr display.

the thing is that this isn t even possible to "grade" the sdr image back to cover the hdr covered by the project video because also like you said, something happens as how resolve [imports, exports] [.exr, avif, heic, .jxl] (does not support native hdr .jxr screenshot from game bar, shadowplay, obs, specialk).
no matter how do you want to try the image data is [blowned out, crushed, and washed out] anyway, after delivery and display on hdr display obviously.

thank for the tip about final cut that apperently worth trying on this side.

'still' (pun intended) surprising for a professional nle hollywood grade like resolve to not be up to date concerning the [import, export] management of hdr stills for hdr video insertion in 2024....
how it is for blackmagic as an upgrade opportunity to distinct from the concurrence.....

ACI XCIX-0001 wrote:@mickspixels
thank for answering to the actual question !

thank for the tip about final cut that apperently worth trying on this side.

'still' (pun intended) surprising for a professional nle hollywood grade like resolve to not be up to date concerning the [import, export] management of hdr stills for hdr video insertion in 2024....
how it is for blackmagic as an upgrade opportunity to distinct from the concurrence.....

No worries. Hopefully Resolve will catch up soon. I mainly use Lightroom Classic rather than ACR and export as JPEG-XL for import into FCP.

HDR grading of stills is still very new - exciting times. The vast majority of photographers still think one is talking about HDR merging and the old HDR look which of course it isn't. Most don't have screens capable of editing HDR stills in any case. As with HDR video initially, there are very few browsers that support HDR stills - Chrome I think is the only one unless things have changed in the last month or so. Then there are gain maps....

The two realms of still photography and video unfortunately remain divided with only few bridges between them. Their color spaces do not match and tools for transformation from one to the other are hard to find or difficult to use. Still RAW formats are not being read by Resolve either, with the exception of the old cr2 and nef. And their integration leaves room for improvement, to put it diplomaticly.
So this particular problem of different hdr modes/formats is just one part of a fractured landscape of standards.

Dante Stiller wrote:The two realms of still photography and video unfortunately remain divided with only few bridges between them. Their color spaces do not match and tools for transformation from one to the other are hard to find or difficult to use. Still RAW formats are not being read by Resolve either, with the exception of the old cr2 and nef. And their integration leaves room for improvement, to put it diplomaticly.
So this particular problem of different hdr modes/formats is just one part of a fractured landscape of standards.

OK but Lightroom and Adobe Camera Raw (pretty much the same thing under the hood) now allow raw stills HDR editing and export in various formats (as in the title of this thread) in Rec2020 color space and the resulting files import beautifully into Final Cut Pro. This gives far superior results in my opinion than editing raw stills in Resolve (or FCP) which was never designed for converting and editing raw stills in any case. Resolve does some pretty weird stuff to NEFs from new Nikon cameras as well (Z8/Z9) and is effectively unusable in HDR. Ideally Resolve would get the same ability as FCP to import HDR stills formats produced in specialist stills software such as Lightroom - Avif or JPEG-XL especially, the latter being the best for size and quality.

Dante Stiller wrote:The two realms of still photography and video unfortunately remain divided with only few bridges between them. Their color spaces do not match and tools for transformation from one to the other are hard to find or difficult to use. Still RAW formats are not being read by Resolve either, with the exception of the old cr2 and nef. And their integration leaves room for improvement, to put it diplomaticly.
So this particular problem of different hdr modes/formats is just one part of a fractured landscape of standards.

I'm thinking of presenting my work in flower photography as HDR stills and/or as short dynamic HDR videos (made from stills). What would be the preferred file format to bring these image in Resolve. My objective is to preserve as much quality as possible, both in color and in dynamic range.

Any suggestions?

Hi,

DaVinci Resolve accepts RGB 16Bit Profile Rec. 2020 PQ TIFs, to be used with the following timeline settings (for me, at least):
Timeline color science: DaVinci YRGB
Timeline color space: Rec.2100 ST2084
Output color space: Same as Timeline

Ideally Resolve would get the same ability as FCP to import HDR stills formats produced in specialist stills software such as Lightroom - Avif or JPEG-XL especially,

I agree that would be an improvement. But what if you have a photo still sequence such as timelapse? I would much rather ingest the sequence directly into Resolve and have advanced raw editing capabilities without going through ACR batch conversion (I don't know if ACR even has that).
But my previous post was also pointing at something more fundamental. Photos and videos have their own color spaces (srgb, Adobe RGB and a few others on one side, rec709, P3, rec2020 and a few others on the other side) even though they are viewed mostly on the same devices, such as smartphones, computer monitors and TVs. Photo stills can also go to print which has completely different physics, but the vast majority remain digital, so the different color spaces do not make sense. It would be so much more convenient if both had the same standards and then the devices could use that same standard. If all photos and all videos were for example P3 then life would be a lot easier.
If indeed photos now handle HDR the same way videos do, that is of course a great step in the right direction.

What would be the preferred file format to bring these image in Resolve.

If your original format is raw, then usually you would transcode into DNG, since the workflow through ACR does not yet seem to work, which is the topic of this thread.
Other then Adobe's own converter there is this more elaborate tool: https://www.iridientdigital.com/product ... ormer.html

Dante Stiller wrote:But what if you have a photo still sequence such as timelapse? I would much rather ingest the sequence directly into Resolve and have advanced raw editing capabilities without going through ACR batch conversion (I don't know if ACR even has that).

Yes of course ACR has the ability to synchronise across a set of images although I prefer Lightroom which does the same thing but more easily. WIth this new ability to edit in HDR in Lightroom and ACR, inmmy recetn experience, it is far better to edit the raw stills in one or the other and export as JPEG-XL Rec2020. Again because of Resolve's inability to import the stills as HDR, I use FCP. It doesn't handle image sequences exactly in the same way as Resolve but it is a simple matter of importing the clips, adding to a timeline, making every clip 1 frame long (a quick keyboard shortcut) and you have a high quality HDR timelapse video.

Dante Stiller wrote:But my previous post was also pointing at something more fundamental. Photos and videos have their own color spaces (srgb, Adobe RGB and a few others on one side, rec709, P3, rec2020.

It would be so much more convenient if both had the same standards and then the devices could use that same standard. If all photos and all videos were for example P3 then life would be a lot easier.

That is incorrect for raw stills. They have no color space until you assign one on import and/or export from a stills editor such as Lightroom. And that is the whole idea of exporting and tagging with a color space such as Rec2020 or P3. It is also possible in fact in P3 but Rec2020 gives the best results in FCP from my testing.

Dante Stiller wrote:If indeed photos now handle HDR the same way videos do, that is of course a great step in the right direction.

There is no if here. Lightroom, Photoshop and Affinity Photo (I believe) can all edit stills in HDR. This is real and it's here and it's amazing. You just need a monitor capable of displaying HDR.

Here's a link to a recent Adobe article which goes into a lot more detail

https://blog.adobe.com/en/publish/2023/ ... -explained

FelixPQ wrote:I'm thinking of presenting my work in flower photography as HDR stills and/or as short dynamic HDR videos (made from stills). What would be the preferred file format to bring these image in Resolve. My objective is to preserve as much quality as possible, both in color and in dynamic range.

Any suggestions?

Shooting blind here. What camera/format are you shooting your stills in? What computer system/OS are you using ? What monitor have you got - is it a true HDR monitor in other words?

mickspixels wrote:For anyone who is not up to date with this, Adobe introduced the ability to edit stills in HDR in Photoshop ACR over a year ago and a few months ago in Lightroom.

Affinity Photo 2 has had the ability to edit HDR stills (high bit-depth photos, I mean, not just stacked photos at different exposures) for awhile, and Pixelmator Pro (Mac only) just added it a month or two ago. Pixelmator can also import and edit HDR (and non HDR) videos, so you could import an HDR video and export one frame and end up with an HDR still if you wanted. It can also export videos.

I opened an iPhone HDR video (Rec.2020/HEVC H.265) to see what it was like, and it looked great, but I didn't do any other testing with it. I saw a YouTube tutorial where someone round tripped a video from FCP to Pixelmator and back after doing some editing, but any stand alone clip can be opened in Pixelamtor. FCP is not needed. She was working with a Rec.709 clip, but I know it has the ability to work with HDR compatible color spaces, but I don't know what video formats it supports for exports.

Skippermark wrote:
Affinity Photo 2 has had the ability to edit HDR stills (high bit-depth photos, I mean, not just stacked photos at different exposures) for awhile, and Pixelmator Pro (Mac only) just added it a month or two ago. Pixelmator can also import and edit HDR (and non HDR) videos, so you could import an HDR video and export one frame and end up with an HDR still if you wanted. It can also export videos.

I opened an iPhone HDR video (Rec.2020/HEVC H.265) to see what it was like, and it looked great, but I didn't do any other testing with it. I saw a YouTube tutorial where someone round tripped a video from FCP to Pixelmator and back after doing some editing, but any stand alone clip can be opened in Pixelamtor. FCP is not needed. She was working with a Rec.709 clip, but I know it has the ability to work with HDR compatible color spaces, but I don't know what video formats it supports for exports.

OK very interesting thanks. I note the qualifier that it is not stacked HDR - that's what people think straightaway. The terminology is confusing.

I've never used Pixelmator but that sounds like a good additional alternative to a FCP/Adobe workflow. I've not got Affinity but my wife has a copy of v1 - not really used it myself.

Anyway, your post inspired me to check if it is possible to export a single frame as HDR from FCP and it is - tagged Rec 2020 from a HDR PQ project and saved as PSD, TIFF or PNG it opens in Photoshop as Rec2020 PQ and displays perfectly in Photoshop as HDR still perfectly matching the frame in FCP. This stuff is quite amazing.

Shooting blind here. What camera/format are you shooting your stills in? What computer system/OS are you using ? What monitor have you got - is it a true HDR monitor in other words?

I'm on Windows 11 Pro, I have BenQ monitors (SW270C, SW240). No HDR monitor at the moment, it's a jungle of misinformation that I haven't sorted out yet, especially that I don't want to spend to much on that at the moment. I could, as you do, use LR and/or ACR + Photoshop to create various formats of HDRs images, but they would be trash down to SDR on Facebook. I haven't checked all my option yet.

I have a Nikon D610, and I shoot 14 bit raw. But since I rarely end up using even edited raw, I'd like to learn which sort of HDR file is more compatible with Resolve.

I saw in another post from you that Resolve may not be the best choice when starting from "HDR Image".

I'll give a couple more clues of what I intend to do.

First, all HDR video I'll create must adapt to SDR display automatically, maybe with the potential to edit (grade) the SDR version. Something similar to what can be done in LR with gain maps.

My workflow will frequently involve: focus stacking, image dependent gamut mapping via ICC style color management (DevLink profiles), compositing, and more. Resulting, in various potential formats, of which, 16 bit tiff files with linear ProPhoto RGB colorspace will be the most likely. I almost forgot, these image will be mostly 6000 x 4000 pixels up to 12000 x 8000 pixels. The idea is to be able to pan and zoom over all that space as I need, through a normal 16:9 viewport, HD, 4K, etc.

My goal in all this is to provide the best HDR quality that I can, especially for colors. The HDR standards that I've seen require, at minimum, 1000 nits, 100% DCI-P3 displays, and so that's my minimal target, but if possible, a little better, I don't know enough yet to decide.

Thanks

FelixPQ wrote:
I'm on Windows 11 Pro, I have BenQ monitors (SW270C, SW240). No HDR monitor at the moment, it's a jungle of misinformation that I haven't sorted out yet, especially that I don't want to spend to much on that at the moment.

Having a monitor that meets the HDR standards is key here and they are not cheap. Otherwise you are looking at a very frustrating experience - essentially wasting your time. So there is no point in going any further until you bite the bullet on that one. Adobe have a link to a list of Windows compatible monitors in the HDR help section

https://helpx.adobe.com/uk/lightroom-cl ... utput.html

Maybe somebody else here can advise on monitors. Asus seems to come up a lot in conversation.

in conclusion,

resolve does not have the feature to correctly import|export hdr stills.
the still photgraphy porfessionals and medium users still use [monitors, tvs] ouputting lower than 1000 nits and not covering p3 and not even less rec. 2020 used by the rec. 2100 standards and aside [final cut pro] for video editing and [affinity photo, lightroom, camera raw, (and pixelmator for mac os users only......), hdr + wcg image viewer, krita (only certain formats)], no still photography softare can features hdr displaying and editing (not referencing hdr merging here obviously....).
also chrome yes open hdr still imges but there is like a blown out artefact compared to the original source material and the way hdr + wcg image viewer opens it accurately.

so it s still very complex and far to be an obious workflow to integrate still hdr imagery in hdr video.....

Having a monitor that meets the HDR standards is key here and they are not cheap. Otherwise you are looking at a very frustrating experience - essentially wasting your time. So there is no point in going any further until you bite the bullet on that one. Adobe have a link to a list of Windows compatible monitors in the HDR help section

https://helpx.adobe.com/uk/lightroom-cl ... utput.html

Maybe somebody else here can advise on monitors. Asus seems to come up a lot in conversation.

Ultimately, I agree with you, want to do HDR, one need an HDR display, it goes without saying.

But I'm not there yet, you mentioned it was complicated to start from a still HDR image to Resolve, and since this is exactly what I want to do, I'd like to focus on that first. I won't spend money on a monitor I don't really need at this time.

Any advice on monitors is welcome, of course. I've found one with the specs I want, except for the refresh rate I think, what would be the minimum?

Yves

ACI XCIX-0001 wrote:in conclusion,

resolve does not have the feature to correctly import|export hdr stills.
the still photgraphy porfessionals and medium users still use [monitors, tvs] ouputting lower than 1000 nits and not covering p3 and not even less rec. 2020 used by the rec. 2100 standards and aside [final cut pro] for video editing and [affinity photo, lightroom, camera raw, (and pixelmator for mac os users only......), hdr + wcg image viewer, krita (only certain formats)], no still photography softare can features hdr displaying and editing (not referencing hdr merging here obviously....).
also chrome yes open hdr still imges but there is like a blown out artefact compared to the original source material and the way hdr + wcg image viewer opens it accurately.

so it s still very complex and far to be an obious workflow to integrate still hdr imagery in hdr video.....

People often call exposure stacking (merging), HDR while others say they are not "HDR". Photomatix, can align and merge a number of images into a 32 bit HDR image, and save it in a few formats, and it can also do tone mapping so we can see correctly (and save SDR) the image on SDR displays. Most people confuse a tone mapped HDR with the real thing.

A tone mapped image is an SDR and an exposure stacking or merging of 2 or more images can be saved as the HDR image it is, depending on the software you use to do the stacking.

Yves

FelixPQ wrote:
Ultimately, I agree with you, want to do HDR, one need an HDR display, it goes without saying.

But I'm not there yet, you mentioned it was complicated to start from a still HDR image to Resolve, and since this is exactly what I want to do, I'd like to focus on that first. I won't spend money on a monitor I don't really need at this time.

It's not complicated, it's simply not possible to import any of the formats that Lightroom/ACR can export as HDR stills into Resolve. But this is moot anyway as you can't edit in HDR in Lightroom/ACR either without a suitable monitor. You might as well be asking to take pictures but are unwilling to buy a camera.

Just to be clear, you can import some stills formats such as TIFF, JPEG and PNG into Resolve, grade them as HDR and export as HDR video. What you can't do is edit as HDR in LR/ACR and import the exported images into Resolve as HDR. It either won't import them at all (JPEG-XL or AVIF) or it will not retain the HDR info (TIFF, PNG) so they may as well be edited and exported as normal SDR images in LR/ACR.

Resolve can import NEFs from older Nikon cameras but there is no benefit in this in my opinion over editing in LR/ACR for normal SDR and Resolve is not in the same league for editing these as HDR in comparison to editing in LR/ACR.

Resolve will also now import HEIC or HIF files which some cameras can shoot (Nikon Z8 for example) but you can't export from LR/ACR as HEIC or HIF. In my opinion again, it is much better to edit raw in LR/ACR (whether it is intended for normal SDR or for HDR) than to shoot HIF - it's 10-bit and very good in comparison to JPEG but it is not raw.

And this thread has nothing to do with HDR merging which is essentially compressing the tonal range of a scene into SDR. This is about displaying images as high dynamic range - same as HDR video.

mickspixels wrote:

FelixPQ wrote:What you can't do is edit as HDR in LR/ACR and import the exported images into Resolve as HDR. It either won't import them at all (JPEG-XL or AVIF) or it will not retain the HDR info (TIFF, PNG) so they may as well be edited and exported as normal SDR images in LR/ACR.

It is exactly what you can do with TIFFs exported from Lightroom (properties in my post above) and imported into Resolve.

Images below:
1. Print screen of Lightroom Edit window in HDR mode (there is no support of screen captures in HDR on Windows hence the distorted look)
2. The same as above as shown on my Asus PA32U HDR monitor (iPhone shot)
3. TIFF imported into Resolve (non colour managed HDR project) via the DeckLink Mini Monitor 4K with video recognised as HDR PQ 1000 on my Asus PA32U HDR monitor (iPhone shot)

If you have properly shot/stored HDR data in EXR, TIFF etc. then in Resolve all what you have to do is to interpret footage properly (clip attributes level). Auto detection of HDR in stills is probably limited (maybe TIFF will work), so you just have to help Resolve to understand real nature of the source. Of course format has to be supported by Resolve for import.
Export is bit more tricky as you have to find format which Resolve is properly tagging as HDR (again probably TIFF). Once you have this then use 3rd party tool to convert to desired format.
Resolve is a video grading tool. Unsupported formats need to be prepared before importing to Resolve. Things may change gradually within time, but don't expect all still 'HDR' formats to work tomorrow. This is rather at the bottom of new features list.

FritzDitz wrote:

mickspixels wrote:

FelixPQ wrote:What you can't do is edit as HDR in LR/ACR and import the exported images into Resolve as HDR. It either won't import them at all (JPEG-XL or AVIF) or it will not retain the HDR info (TIFF, PNG) so they may as well be edited and exported as normal SDR images in LR/ACR.

It is exactly what you can do with TIFFs exported from Lightroom (properties in my post above) and imported into Resolve.

OK maybe I was not totally clear there and I'm probably judging Resolve by what I get from importing into FCP where there is very little work to do on HDR stills exported from Lightroom in the formats I've been using (JPEG-XL, TIF, AVIF, PSD, PNG) to get excellent matching with LR HDR in FCP HDR projects.

I have found that importing 16-bit Tiffs tagged Rec2020 exported from LR and imported into Resolve need quite a bit of work to get them matching what they look like in LR and I'm getting much less satisfactory result/matching LR which is why I said one might as well export as SDR from LR and work on the files in HDR in Resolve.

The key point though is from the title of this thread. Resolve can't import JPEG-XL and AVIF files which are the best formats to work with for stills HDR as they are about a tenth the size of the equivalent TIFFs and there is no noticable loss of quality, certainly for JPEG-XL which is my preferred format. Resolve can import EXR but not as HDR - the results are way off. Perhaps I missed something but I can't see it.

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:Resolve is a video grading tool. Unsupported formats need to be prepared before importing to Resolve. Things may change gradually within time, but don't expect all still 'HDR' formats to work tomorrow. This is rather at the bottom of new features list.

Sure. The reason I've been getting involved in this is I discovered the wonder of HDR stills editing not so long ago and I found it works pretty much out of the box importing Rec2020 HDR stills into Final Cut with a minor tweak of luminance values. I'm not too concerned at all that Resolve can't handle these new compressed formats such as JPEG-XL and AVIF but it is a problem for people who don't have Macs with FCP. I don't know if Premiere Pro can handle HDR stills. Last I heard it couldn't but that might have changed.

This is very new in the world of stllls but it is definitely going to be a thing and it is exciting. There is of course the problem of how to display HDR stills as most browsers can't handle them (I think Chrome is the only one). There are workarounds or fudges like gain maps which display a pseudo HDR image in some other browsers on HDR and SDR monitors. In fact there is much more support for HDR video in the browser world so a natural workaround is to import the HDR stills into a video editor and export as HDR video which could be uploaded to YouTube for example. It's early days. I'm just enjoying exploring it all as things stand.

FelixPQ wrote:I have found that importing 16-bit Tiffs tagged Rec2020 exported from LR and imported into Resolve need quite a bit of work to get them matching what they look like in LR and I'm getting much less satisfactory result/matching LR which is why I said one might as well export as SDR from LR and work on the files in HDR in Resolve.

One more screen shot for you below. No more work is needed in Resolve 18.6, I get 1:1 match with what I see in LR.

Exporting HDR stills in Resolve would be nice in due course.

Not sure if anyone from Blackmagic reads these but if so; just adding in +1 to additional HDR still file format support.

HDR AVIF, HDR HEIF, HDR JPEG XL etc would be great. Anything ISO HDR compliant would be good!

Would save having to convert to an intermediate format, which when editing at pace would be very useful!

FritzDitz wrote:

FelixPQ wrote:I have found that importing 16-bit Tiffs tagged Rec2020 exported from LR and imported into Resolve need quite a bit of work to get them matching what they look like in LR and I'm getting much less satisfactory result/matching LR which is why I said one might as well export as SDR from LR and work on the files in HDR in Resolve.

One more screen shot for you below. No more work is needed in Resolve 18.6, I get 1:1 match with what I see in LR.

Exporting HDR stills in Resolve would be nice in due course.

IMHO, the screenshot you provided show an SDR image, it barely shows anything above 100 nits, no?

FelixPQ wrote:

FritzDitz wrote:

FelixPQ wrote:IMHO, the screenshot you provided show an SDR image, it barely shows anything above 100 nits, no?

HDR on SDR monitor is inaccurate (not tone-mapped). Judge nits in scopes - brightest parts near 350 nit reference line.

+1

Just add my voice to the desire to import JXL format files (adobe lightroom exported) to an existing media library (they don't import).