Fusion weird Edit Page Sizing Behaviour

Hi,

I think this is a major bug in Fusion right now.

As far as I understand it, when I open a Clip in the Fusion page, by jumping from Edit to Fusion, I am working on the full resolution of that clip. (even though my timeline might be set to HD, I am still working on the 3.2K full resolution of the source)

So far so good, but I noticed, when I am doing a resize of that clip in the edit page, suddenly the shot is now also scaled up in the Fusion page. Even though the 'Media in' in Fusion states that the clip is still 3.2K.
My problem with this is, imagine you are doing roto work in Fusion. Everything works great, but now after you have done the roto in Fusion, you decide to zoom in to that shot in the edit page. Now all roto work is wrong as the shot is suddenly zoomed in in the Fusion page.

I checked the manual and thought I found a solution by changing the 'Media Source' parameter in the MediaIn node, from 'Timeline' to 'Media Pool'. But when I change that setting nothing changes even though the manual states otherwise:
'— Media Pool: Links the clip directly from the Media Pool, bypassing the Edit Timeline.'

It seems it doesn't bypass the Edit Timeline at all.
I think this is a bug and should not be happening, at least not when changing the Media Source parameter to Media pool.

I hope this is clear.

Just to make sure, I know there are two other ways to create fusion clips. (right click, create new fusion clip or by dragging a clip from the media pool into an empty fusion clip) I am only interested in the behaviour, when 'automatically' creating a fusion clip by switching from the Edit page to the fusion page.
I want to work in source resolution, so I can make sure, if a director decides to change something later, like zooming in, it doesn't destroy the work done in the fusion page.

Here are a couple of images to show the behaviour:

Original Full res shot, with no Zoom in Edit page (looks correct)

orig_nozoom.jpg (215.23 KiB) Viewed 1590 times

After zoom in in the Edit Page (the shot is still in full res in Fusion but suddenly zoomed in, even with changed 'Media Source' parameter to 'Media Pool'. This should in my opinion never happen)

ZoomInEditPage.jpg (199.81 KiB) Viewed 1590 times

Roto in Fusion without any zoom changes in Edit page (looks correct)

MaskNoZoom.jpg (183.98 KiB) Viewed 1590 times

After zooming in in the Edit page, the roto I've done before in the Fusion page is now not in correct place


I hope someone from the BMD team can clarify if this is expected behaviour or a bug.
I tested this in Resolve 18.6.4 and Resolve v19 beta
Thank you

Can you say what your options in the Edit page are when you see this behavior. Are zoom, retime and scaling, super scale etc options all where they should be?

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sshot-4028.jpg (11.92 KiB) Viewed 1288 times

sshot-4030.jpg (32.97 KiB) Viewed 1288 times

after you have done [anything] in Fusion, you decide to [change] that shot in the edit page.

Someone more versed in Fusion might have a better idea. But one approach that should work is never change the clip on the Edit page after working in Fusion.

In this case, do the Zoom in the Fusion page.

Can you say what your options in the Edit page are when you see this behavior. Are zoom, retime and scaling, super scale etc options all where they should be?

sshot-4029.jpg

sshot-4028.jpg

sshot-4030.jpg

The only thing I changed was zoom. Nothing else has been done, no retime, no super scale or other fancy things.

This happens in every project with every clip. Tried it several times.
It should be very easy to repeat.

Scaling was set to crop but tried it with all the other 3 settings now, all with the same effect.

after you have done [anything] in Fusion, you decide to [change] that shot in the edit page.

Someone more versed in Fusion might have a better idea. But one approach that should work is never change the clip on the Edit page after working in Fusion.

In this case, do the Zoom in the Fusion page.

Obviously if that could be a choice, I would not take the effort of writing the bug report here.

This might work well in a one man band kind of business but not in a studio where 5-10 other people might not know/care what somebody has done in a fusion page and just chenges a setting in the edit page anyways..

This would be the same thing, if you could not do any changes in the edit page as soon as you have tracked a window in the color page..
From my view this scaling is unexpected behavior which would need to change..

The only thing I changed was zoom. Nothing else has been done, no retime, no super scale or other fancy things. This happens in every project with every clip. Tried it several times.
It should be very easy to repeat. Scaling was set to crop but tried it with all the other 3 settings now, all with the same effect.

The only way I was able to reproduce what you are saying is if I zoomed the clip on edit page, but no other scenario. And to my knowlage I've never had the issue myself. If the zoom is used in the edit page it will zoom what you have done in the fusion page because of media out node. A direct link. But soon as you zoom back to normal all should be identical if done correctly.

I think what you are describing is normal behaviour but maybe I'm missing something.

When you make changes in fusion and you connect it to media out node, you send what you have done to be essentially overlayed over the original clip in the color and edit page and on top of that goes everything you do in edit or color page. Including zoom. When you zoom you are talking original clip from media pool, applying fusion edits to it, and than further edits in color or edit page. When you zoom in or out you are also zooming the fusion elements as outputted via media out node from the fusion page. Your roto should stay the same in proportion to the clip dimensions as they were made in Fusion page.

For example a clip/image that is 1468x1174 px on a 1080p timeline with fit option available. No zooming applied. The clip will fit automatically into 1080p, but in Fusion it will be full resolution unless I constrict it in fusion. When I go back to Edit page via media out node, the clip will have proportional to its original dimensions drawn mask to be the same in edit and fusion pages, and also whatever edit page settings are used to zoom in / our or scale the clip. This is as expected.

If you want to have completely identical everything, than you need to set it up that way. For example in Fusion I could have made a a background node of 1080p and fit the larger dimension in it like Edit page, and than they would match completely in both aspect ratio and dimensions. I am not sure there is anything wrong with all this, its juts the way its working. You have a lot of flexibility. It just depends on what you want to do.

For example a clip/image that is 1468x1174 px on a 1080p timeline with fit option available. No zooming applied. The clip will fit automatically into 1080p, but in Fusion it will be full resolution unless I constrict it in fusion. When I go back to Edit page via media out node, the clip will have proportional to its original dimensions drawn mask to be the same in edit and fusion pages, and also whatever edit page settings are used to zoom in / our or scale the clip. This is as expected.

Yes I agree this is normal behaviour that you describe and what I would expect. Because I want to work in fusion with full res. But that should not change, when I zoom in the edit page and it currently does. The Fusion comp should always display full resolution without any Edit page changes or if not it should at least remember the roto relative to the source resolution. So the roto should stick no matter what I did or will do in the edit page. Exactly the same way the color page works. Thats why I say this is has to be a bug or unexpected behaviour.

Especially as you can change the Media In settings in Fusion page to ignore what the Edit page is doing. But that also doesn’t fix it.

Just to make sure, you could repeat the behaviour with changing zoom settings in the edit page? If not you just have to make a roto first in fusion and then change the zoom in the edit page, after that the roto will be wrong in Fusion..

Yes I agree this is normal behaviour that you describe and what I would expect. Because I want to work in fusion with full res. But that should not change, when I zoom in the edit page and it currently does.

The fusion resolution never changes, it only sends to edit / color page what the media out is connected to. The edit page either changes or scales up the composite of fusion edit and whatever you are doing in the edit or color pages.

The Fusion comp should always display full resolution without any Edit page changes or if not it should at least remember the roto relative to the source resolution.

It does remember the roto relative to source resolution if that is how you set it up in Fusion. If you want to link everything between edit and fusion pages, use "fusion clip" method. Otherwise edit page works on top of fusion page that is signified to whatever you have connected to media out node in fusion.

So the roto should stick no matter what I did or will do in the edit page. Exactly the same way the color page works. Thats why I say this is has to be a bug or unexpected behaviour.

The roto does stick in relative terms, but depending on the workflow you are using the scaling you do in edit page and zooming in the edit page, (not the same thing) will take primacy. If you want synchronization either use fusion clip method or make sure your canvas in Fusion is matching edit page project settings.

Especially as you can change the Media In settings in Fusion page to ignore what the Edit page is doing. But that also doesn’t fix it.

Curios. How much have you worked with fusion? There seem to be discrepancy between reality of how application works, vs what your expectation is, vs what can be done.

Just to make sure, you could repeat the behaviour with changing zoom settings in the edit page? If not you just have to make a roto first in fusion and then change the zoom in the edit page, after that the roto will be wrong in Fusion..

No. Roto in Fusion remains roto in fusion. Its not wrong. Zooming in edit page changes appearance of what the media out or media in nodes look like in fusion as expected. This is because fusion works on source clip, unless you use particular nodes, like resize, scale etc, you are not changing resolution in Fusion. The so called reference resolution in Fusion page settings informs generator nodes in fusion what resolution to use as reference, but there is no truly native resolution in Fusion, because its agnostic in that way. This is because you can bring in media from all over the place into fusion and they can be in various formats, resolutions, bit depth, color space etc. You composite it and send it out via media out, usually to color/deliver page. or you use saver node to export from fusion page.

As for image and other processing.

sshot-4031.jpg (109.38 KiB) Viewed 1147 times

Just to be clear. Are you having conflict between what you expect to happen, vs how application works, or do you have a particular problem you can't solve? I could probably help with the second one, but not first one.

As for image and other processing.

Just to be clear. Are you having conflict between what you expect to happen, vs how application works, or do you have a particular problem you can't solve? I could probably help with the second one, but not first one.

Thank you for your elaborate answer. I appreciate you, trying to help.
I think it is the first one and I think it is not on purpose. Thats why I am saying it is a bug. I am just trying to flag this to the BMD team.

Thank you for that image that shows the order of sizing effects. I guess according to this image all Fusion effects are happening between Lens Correction and Edit Page transforms?
If that is the case it shows exactly the bug I experience, which should, according to this image not happen.

The Edit Page Transforms are in my case happening before the Fusion Transforms. (I am only changing zoom in the inspector, no Super Scale or Lens correction)
If the Edit page transform would happen after the Fusion effects, the Roto should scale up and stick with the face because it is happening after Fusion. But it seems it is happening before Fusion.
I hope this explains what I mean.

Don't get me wrong I don't mind that the Fusion shot gets scaled up, I just think it supposed to be happening after after all the effects in Fusion. As Fusion works according to the MediaIn node, in full resolution, that would only make sense.

I dug a bit deeper in the manual and it seems it confirms my suspicion, that this should not happen.
Here you can see the order and of the effects.
As you can see the fusion effects should be happening before all the edit page effects. (like zoom etc.)

order pages.png (48.3 KiB) Viewed 931 times

order effects.png (46.89 KiB) Viewed 931 times

In the manual there is also this line, which also agrees with my suspicion that you should not see a zoomed image in the fusion page.

fusion viewer.png (16.49 KiB) Viewed 931 times

And I now tested it and tried to zoom back out in Fusion on a zoomed in (in edit page) shot. And it seems the zoom is happening before the fusion effects, which should not happen.

Thank you for your elaborate answer. I appreciate you, trying to help.

No problem.

I think it is the first one and I think it is not on purpose. Thats why I am saying it is a bug.

Other than what you think, I'm having a hard time finding good argument on your end. You seem to have an expectation on how things should work for you, but I'm not sure it is the same as solid argument about how things actually work.

Thank you for that image that shows the order of sizing effects. I guess according to this image all Fusion effects are happening between Lens Correction and Edit Page transforms? If that is the case it shows exactly the bug I experience, which should, according to this image not happen.

The Edit Page Transforms are in my case happening before the Fusion Transforms. (I am only changing zoom in the inspector, no Super Scale or Lens correction)

No, I don't think they are. The edit page transforms are happening on top of fusion transforms. As they should be. IF they are not, you will have ot provide some evidence of that. So far you have posted screenshots only of the fusion page. And claim the other is true. I tried what you said, and I think you have soothing confused. So for future agreement you need to provide some solid evidence and argument that its more than just your opinion.

If the Edit page transform would happen after the Fusion effects, the Roto should scale up and stick with the face because it is happening after Fusion. But it seems it is happening before Fusion. I hope this explains what I mean.

It would if you could prove its happening. So far you only claim based on what seem to be your way of speculation. Show how it is happening. When I make a roto in Fusion page and I set it up correctly, everything I expect it to happen does happen and I have no issues. So how come you have them? Could it be just a matter of expectation vs reality? If you think its a bug, provide actual evidence of it. Otherwise it sounds a lot like you are trying to understand how it works, but you are getting confused somewhere along the line.

Don't get me wrong I don't mind that the Fusion shot gets scaled up, I just think it supposed to be happening after after all the effects in Fusion. As Fusion works according to the MediaIn node, in full resolution, that would only make sense.

No. Its more nuanced than that.

Someone made a post about it on Fusion section of the forum, but this is also changing with updates and workflow so not all is up to date.

viewtopic.php?f=22&t=150418

I dug a bit deeper in the manual and it seems it confirms my suspicion, that this should not happen.
Here you can see the order and of the effects. As you can see the fusion effects should be happening before all the edit page effects. (like zoom etc.)

No. that's not true. Some happen and some don't. Its not a an absolute its a relative. It also depends on what you do in Fusion page.

There are differences between color management, which has further probably confusing to you changes, where viewer and node tree can be vary different in the way they display vs work with color and tone, independent of anything in any other page, plus you can have various files from all over the place with various resolutions, bit depth, color gamut, gamma, file formats etc. And you can adjust them on node by node basis. So the idea that it should all be mirror of edit page, is not realistic to how it should work.

You cannot approach it from what you expect but from what it is. As for roto in particular. Roto can happen in every node in every way, and it can be animated so naturally Fusion nodes are independent of each other and by extension of edit page. If you want to roto our a node and have the scale in relative sense be respected on the edit page, you have to

a) set up resolution of the background input to match the one you want to see in edit page otherwise it will be relative to the source clip dimensions. This will be carried over to edit and color pages via media out node.

b) when you scale or zoom a clip in edit page before or after fusion page, it does not matter, because by default fusion could take in clips from any source. Loader, media pool, drag and drop etc. And can be rescaled or resized in fusion page on node by node basis. So they are by default independent of each other. The way to make them sync is either by what I explain in a) or by making a fusion clip first in the edit page and than making sure the same comes out the fusion page via media out node.

There are also other considerations like adjustment clips etc that are more covered in the thread I linked. There are also considerations with so called "reference composition" workflow, that is coming out in Resolve 19, but its not officially released yet its still in beta. There is also concept of compound clips, proxy etc that can be a factor.

c) unless you have evidence to the contrary, and I need to see some footage or sequential screenshots to agree on that, I think what you expect to happen is not matching what actually happen, and you are struggling to let go of your expectations so you end up with confirmation bias problem.

Confirmation Bias: discarding the evidence that doesn’t fit our beliefs, giving greater weight to evidence that does.

And I now tested it and tried to zoom back out in Fusion on a zoomed in (in edit page) shot. And it seems the zoom is happening before the fusion effects, which should not happen.

[/quote]

Why? Why it should not happen?

I know you have expectation based on confirmation bias, but what arguments do you have that its a bug, vs your expectation?

Here is a video showing the behaviour of the transform. It clearly shows that the Edit Page Zoom is happening before Fusion page:

Here is a video showing the masking behaviour. It also clearly shows that the zoom in the edit page is happening before the Fusion page. Otherwise the mask would stay on the original source resolution position if the zoom would be happening after the fusion page.

As you can see in the images I posted from the manual. It clearly states that all Sizing changes made in the Edit page are supposed to happen after Fusion. (which would totally make sense, because you usually work in Fusion with the full res of the source clip or at least (because Fusion is resolution indipendent) with the same aspect ratio.

Hope you can now see the behaviour.

Here is a video showing the behaviour of the transform. It clearly shows that the Edit Page Zoom is happening before Fusion page:

Based on your descriptions, things were working fine, but your descriptions were descripting something that looked like user error rather than program error. Watching your video (first clip), things are a bit more clear and less clear at the same time. More clear is that I can see what you did, which I didn't get from your description. Less clear is how you are able to zoom in at edit page and see that in fusion page right away. The transform node part is clear and expected, the first part is strange. I was not able to replicate it. Short of some hidden setting and something you forgot to mention or didn't know about, it does at first glance seem like bug. But I'm not sure.

Your project settings are UHD resolution and the still image if I saw it correctly is also UHD. This also shows up in fusion page in the upper right hand corner of the image. The part that I could not replicate is, when you zoom in the edit page, that it shows up in the fusion page as zoomed in image. I see you had your proxy turned on, not sure if its related to it. Also you seem to be on the Mac, I'm on Windows, and if its a bug, could be specific to version of resolve on particular OS.

Either I'm missing some setting you have activated and I'm not aware of it. or I have a bug and you don't or you have a bug and I don't so we get differnt behavior. So far, the way I'm used to working this is not something I've come across and I can't seem to replicate the exact behavior in your video. Like I said, short of some hidden setting that I'm not aware of or behavior I am not aware of, it could be indeed a bug.

As you can see in the images I posted from the manual. It clearly states that all Sizing changes made in the Edit page are supposed to happen after Fusion. (which would totally make sense, because you usually work in Fusion with the full res of the source clip or at least (because Fusion is resolution indipendent) with the same aspect ratio. Hope you can now see the behaviour.

I think this is where you described it in a way that confused me.

"It clearly states that all Sizing changes made in the Edit page are supposed to happen after Fusion. "

No. Sizing change can happen before and after. It depends on various factors what you want to do and why. Its not a linear thing. You can size something in edit page, make changes in fusion page and continue with zoomed out clip in edit page. This is where you description was confusing. These things can work interdependently of each other, but also together, depending on how you set it up. That being said there is an order of things, but its not how you described it. Your video was much more helpful because I could see what you are doing and try to do the same.

" (which would totally make sense, because you usually work in Fusion with the full res of the source clip or at least (because Fusion is resolution indipendent) with the same aspect ratio. "

Yes and no. It all depends on what you want to do. You could be working on edited timeline with sizing and everything locked up, but use clips from original source to do your VFX or whatever you need to and match the size in fusion. Or continue from same composition you worked in fusion studio and finished in fusion page in resolve. You could be working with motion graphics that needs to adopt to edit page changes etc. many, many different scenarios, so it can be quite flexible in the way you work. But as long as its not a bug, it should be something that can be adopted to any workflow. Which is why I found your description hard to follows, since you are describing it in a way that does not have to be that way. Your video made it easier to see what you are doing and follow along.

I'm unable to replicate on Win (beta 2 of v19). From the video it looks like proper bug, but might be isolated to Mac. If you can repro this in new project, from clean scratch, this is definitely a bug, this kind of thing should not happen.