ProRes encoding on windows

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Gian Salucci

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ProRes encoding on windows

PostThu Sep 01, 2016 12:18 am

Apple obviously no longer cares about the professional crowd. My PC is more then 2x faster than the fastest Mac Pro at encoding in resolve.... but I still can't encode to ProRes. This is a deal breaker for many jobs.

What needs to happen so this can happen? This is the only reason I'm not using Windows yet.
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Aaron_Hayden

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Re: ProRes encoding on windows

PostThu Sep 01, 2016 12:46 am

I agree. Lack of this feature can be a major headache.

If your lucky enough to own a DaVinci Resolve Console you can run Linux Resolve, which encodes ProRes. That's a $30k ProRes fix.

Maybe Apple wants a ridiculous license fee for any Windows based ProRes encoder?

If that's the case maybe Blackmagic could release a Windows ProRes encoder add on at some additional cost?

Or

Make Linux Resolve open to all Studio dongle holders :D
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Marc Wielage

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Re: ProRes encoding on windows

PostThu Sep 01, 2016 2:53 am

Gian Salucci wrote:Apple obviously no longer cares about the professional crowd. My PC is more then 2x faster than the fastest Mac Pro at encoding in resolve.... but I still can't encode to ProRes. This is a deal breaker for many jobs.

Buy an iMac or a used Mac Pro and use Remote Rendering to let the Mac handle the file. It's not BMD's decision -- it's up to Apple to decide who gets to do ProRes rendering under Windows.

There are some third party applications that claim to be able to convert common files like DNxHD to ProRes on Windows, but I'd suggest trying them out first to see how well they work. One is Footage Studio:

http://www.acrovid.com/footagestudio.htm
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Dan Sherman

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Re: ProRes encoding on windows

PostThu Sep 01, 2016 3:03 am

ffmpeg will convert to prores, so you cold just render NDxHD or NDxHR out of DR and then use ffmpeg to transcode to prores.

I just did a quick check and i see 3 prores encoders prores, prores_aw, & prores_ks.


Prores_ks has the most options:
Code: Select all
Encoder prores_ks [Apple ProRes (iCodec Pro)]:
    General capabilities: threads
    Threading capabilities: slice
    Supported pixel formats: yuv422p10le yuv444p10le yuva444p10le
ProRes encoder AVOptions:
  -mbs_per_slice     <int>        E..V.... macroblocks per slice (from 1 to 8) (default 8)
  -profile           <int>        E..V.... (from -1 to 4) (default auto)
     auto                         E..V....
     proxy                        E..V....
     lt                           E..V....
     standard                     E..V....
     hq                           E..V....
     4444                         E..V....
  -vendor            <string>     E..V.... vendor ID (default "Lavc")
  -bits_per_mb       <int>        E..V.... desired bits per macroblock (from 0 to 8192) (default 0)
  -quant_mat         <int>        E..V.... quantiser matrix (from -1 to 4) (default auto)
     auto                         E..V....
     proxy                        E..V....
     lt                           E..V....
     standard                     E..V....
     hq                           E..V....
     default                      E..V....
  -alpha_bits        <int>        E..V.... bits for alpha plane (from 0 to 16) (default 16)
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John Paines

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Re: ProRes encoding on windows

PostThu Sep 01, 2016 3:08 am

There also a number of free front-ends for ffmpeg. Cliptoolz v2 is probably the best known, but am not sure if it's still available, having been replaced by v3, for which there's a small charge.
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Re: ProRes encoding on windows

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Adam Simmons

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Re: ProRes encoding on windows

PostThu Sep 01, 2016 6:49 am

davidanderson wrote:http://www.mudgee.net/ClipToolz-Convert-V2.msi

Thanks for that, I lost my copy of V2 and couldn't find it anywhere
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waltervolpatto

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Re: ProRes encoding on windows

PostThu Sep 01, 2016 2:07 pm

you can also have a mac with the free version and grab the dnxhr from pc and re-encode to prores, you don't need a monster machine for this
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Gian Salucci

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Re: ProRes encoding on windows

PostFri Sep 02, 2016 1:28 am

I'm pretty sure FFMPEG doesn't encode real prores... thought I read that somewhere. I think the only program that does it for real is Scratch.
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Dan Sherman

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Re: ProRes encoding on windows

PostFri Sep 02, 2016 4:45 am

I can check if someone can tell me how to identify real prores.
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Frank Glencairn

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Re: ProRes encoding on windows

PostFri Sep 02, 2016 7:48 am

As far as I know, the main difference between "real" Prores and FFMPEG Prores is in the metadata, where it says "Apple". Some QC applications read that sorta header, and reject the material, if it says something different.
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Frank Glencairn

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Re: ProRes encoding on windows

PostFri Sep 02, 2016 7:51 am

Dan Sherman wrote:ffmpeg will convert to prores, so you cold just render NDxHD or NDxHR out of DR and then use ffmpeg to transcode to prores.



But that would add an extra compression step into your workflow. I always do the ProRes from uncompressed Material, just for quality.
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Re: ProRes encoding on windows

PostFri Sep 02, 2016 7:56 am

Only Apple will tell what's "real ProRes" – or problems with the footage down stream…

There used to be a paid transcoder for ProRes on the PC from Miraizon. But it was pulled, probably under pressure from Apple's lawyers. When I tried that at the time, some – but not all! – of my transcoded footage was not accepted in my editing system (Premiere by then). Some folks claimed it was based on the same function in Handbrake.

Now there is this one still: http://www.acrovid.com/footagestudio.htm
I have no idea if it's Apple acknowledged, but might be worth a try.

You are only on the safe side with a ProRes encoder qualified by Apple, this is a short list of (expensive) ones:

Assimilate Scratch
Telestream Episode Engine can encode ProRes on windows server 2008 and 2012
Clipster

Red has it in their RedCine-X now, but only for R3D sources.
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Martin Schitter

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Re: ProRes encoding on windows

PostFri Sep 02, 2016 3:39 pm

drastic technologies offers some interesting commercial transcoding options as well.
autodesk has outsourced its codec support in the actual flame products and is now utilizing this solution:

http://www.drastic.tv/productsmenu-56/mediareactorlist
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Re: ProRes encoding on windows

PostFri Sep 02, 2016 9:24 pm

I believe there needs to be a push to train clients to move to a flavor of DNx. It's as good or better than prorez and it a free codec that can be used on windows or osx. When I was on Baselight and was making "prorez" ff mpeg files I'd get calls from editors with various issues. It's really not a solution. The only solution is to go with something that can play nice on all systems or keep holding out breath that BM is going to sell us licenses for Windows to encode prorez so we can build real work stations. Or we can all take classes in Linux.
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Aaron_Hayden

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Re: ProRes encoding on windows

PostFri Sep 02, 2016 10:20 pm

John Burton wrote:I believe there needs to be a push to train clients to move to a flavor of DNx.


I try this with all my clients, but many are stubborn and refuse to accept anything but prores.

I'll add the download link for the Avid dnx codec with my delivered file, but they still don't want it.

Most clients want a master file that will ubiquitously playabck on any system without the need of additional codecs or software.

Until Dnx is pre-installed on windows and macOS, I doubt most clients will change that view.
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Adam Simmons

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Re: ProRes encoding on windows

PostFri Sep 02, 2016 10:23 pm

I'm pretty sure ProRes isn't native on Windows, you have to install QuickTime to be able to play it as that adds in the ProRes codec
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Aaron_Hayden

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Re: ProRes encoding on windows

PostSat Sep 03, 2016 12:47 am

Adam Simmons wrote:I'm pretty sure ProRes isn't native on Windows, you have to install QuickTime to be able to play it as that adds in the ProRes codec


Whoops, I guess I misspoke.

Then again, I'm not having a hard time convincing windows based clients to use Dnx.

It's more of an issue with the mac based clients.
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John Paines

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Re: ProRes encoding on windows

PostSat Sep 03, 2016 1:05 am

Adam Simmons wrote:I'm pretty sure ProRes isn't native on Windows, you have to install QuickTime to be able to play it as that adds in the ProRes codec


Depends on the application. It's no longer true of Resolve. This from the release notes:

"It [12.5.1.] adds ProRes decoding on Windows and no longer requires QuickTime 7 for Windows. So Windows users can now run Resolve without installing QuickTime. Trimming and multicam performance is also improved as DaVinci Resolve 12.5.1 now uses its own native 64-bit code to read and write .mov files. "
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Frank Glencairn

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Re: ProRes encoding on windows

PostSat Sep 03, 2016 1:10 am

Aaron_Hayden wrote:I'm not having a hard time convincing windows based clients to use Dnx.

It's more of an issue with the mac based clients.


Sounds familiar. I convinced most of my clients to use Cineform, since it is a much better and more modern codec - but yeah, it's always the mac based guys, that are stubborn for some reason.
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Adam Simmons

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Re: ProRes encoding on windows

PostSat Sep 03, 2016 6:02 am

John Paines wrote:
Adam Simmons wrote:I'm pretty sure ProRes isn't native on Windows, you have to install QuickTime to be able to play it as that adds in the ProRes codec


Depends on the application. It's no longer true of Resolve. This from the release notes:

"It [12.5.1.] adds ProRes decoding on Windows and no longer requires QuickTime 7 for Windows. So Windows users can now run Resolve without installing QuickTime. Trimming and multicam performance is also improved as DaVinci Resolve 12.5.1 now uses its own native 64-bit code to read and write .mov files. "

That still doesn't make ProRes native to Windows which is what his original comment was that I was replying to
Aaron_Hayden wrote:Most clients want a master file that will ubiquitously playabck on any system without the need of additional codecs or software
Until Dnx is pre-installed on windows and macOS, I doubt most clients will change that view.
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Re: ProRes encoding on windows

PostSat Sep 03, 2016 9:36 am

I am usign this GUI about a year and no complains about.
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Jean Claude

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Re: ProRes encoding on windows

PostSat Sep 03, 2016 5:34 pm

you fantasize with PRORES (as APPLE trade that vuet impose its CODEC) compared with DNXHR: I have not seen the "difference" (there would any?) unless go to my optician ...
Explain me ? :?:
BMD has made x64 DEcode PRORES and Quicktime: I found it very good: thank you for BMD. (For ENcoding: we know that Apple ...) :?
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Martin Schitter

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Re: ProRes encoding on windows

PostSun Sep 04, 2016 12:03 pm

Jean Claude wrote:you fantasize with PRORES (as APPLE trade that vuet impose its CODEC) compared with DNXHR: I have not seen the "difference" (there would any?) unless go to my optician ...
Explain me ? :?:


dnxhr support on free operating systems or common tools right now is more limited than prores access.
in fact you are usually only able to decode dnxhr by free utilities, but you can't encode in this format, and dnxhd does not support resolutions >1080p.

that's an important issue, that makes prores more suitable in some cases, even if it doesn't make much differnce in image quality.
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Re: ProRes encoding on windows

PostSun Sep 04, 2016 12:20 pm

Hi,
I have being using this software. I make DnxHR444 or I make a uncompressed out of DaVinci and throw it in here. I have had no issues.

http://www.acrovid.com/footagestudio.htm

-Evan
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Dan Sherman

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Re: ProRes encoding on windows

PostSun Sep 04, 2016 2:11 pm

Martin Schitter wrote:but you can't encode in this format

ffmpeg supports DNxHR encoding, and I'm pretty sure it's supported on all three major operating systems as well.

And at least on my machine it's substantially faster than the DR is.
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Martin Schitter

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Re: ProRes encoding on windows

PostSun Sep 04, 2016 4:25 pm

Dan Sherman wrote:ffmpeg supports DNxHR encoding, and I'm pretty sure it's supported on all three major operating systems as well.


could you please write down a working command line example, how to encode dnxhr by ffmpeg?
i could not find anything useful in the official documentation and changelogs.
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Dan Sherman

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Re: ProRes encoding on windows

PostMon Sep 05, 2016 3:55 am

Martin Schitter wrote:
Dan Sherman wrote:ffmpeg supports DNxHR encoding, and I'm pretty sure it's supported on all three major operating systems as well.


could you please write down a working command line example, how to encode dnxhr by ffmpeg?
i could not find anything useful in the official documentation and changelogs.


yea, it's hidden it's a profile under DNxHD, Andrew Kolakowski (a member here) turned me on to it.

Code: Select all
-i input -c:v dnxhd -profile:v dnxhr_sq output


right now, dnxhr_lb, dnxhr_sq, & dnxhr_hq are supported.
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Martin Schitter

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Re: ProRes encoding on windows

PostMon Sep 05, 2016 10:38 am

Dan Sherman wrote:yea, it's hidden. it's a profile under DNxHD, Andrew Kolakowski (a member here) turned me on to it.

Code: Select all
-i input -c:v dnxhd -profile:v dnxhr_sq output


right now, dnxhr_lb, dnxhr_sq, & dnxhr_hq are supported.


thanks! that's indeed very useful!
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Craig Marshall

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Re: ProRes encoding on windows

PostMon Sep 05, 2016 12:15 pm

Aaron_Hayden wrote:....It's more of an issue with the mac based clients.


Fortunately, there's less and less of them every day... :D

BTW, ffmpeg can be a pain for ProRes encode on a Win PC so it's best to use a ffmbc based encoder such as the new Convert v3.3 which has morphed out of the old Cliptoolz. v3.x is optimized for the latest multi-threaded CPUs and Win 10 64bit. Worth it for the 'scopes alone...

http://hdcinematics.com/index.html
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Martin Schitter

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Re: ProRes encoding on windows

PostMon Sep 05, 2016 12:53 pm

Craig Marshall wrote:
Aaron_Hayden wrote:it's best to use a ffmbc based encoder


no -- IMHO you shouldn't use ffmbc anymore. it didn't see much updates recently and it's full of unfixed bugs and security issues, that are solved in the ffmpeg main branch.
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Craig Marshall

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Re: ProRes encoding on windows

PostMon Sep 05, 2016 1:36 pm

In fact, Convert v3.xx uses a combination of both ffmbc and ffmpeg - each for their most appropriate application. Colour shifts during transcoding can be an issue with some software based transcoders but my tests with this particular app have been very positive.
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John Paines

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Re: ProRes encoding on windows

PostWed Aug 09, 2017 5:42 pm

Steve Roberts wrote:Fusion 9 Studio will save all codec versions of ProRes on Linux and Windows, including being able to save alpha in ProRes. The container is Quicktime.


Steve Roberts is with BMD (see the Fusion forum). Am not sure how the Resolve-Fusion-Prores workflow would run, if it's advisable at all, but has anyone tried it? Note that the Apple prores license is for Fusion Studio only.
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: ProRes encoding on windows

PostWed Aug 09, 2017 7:29 pm

Dan Sherman wrote:
Martin Schitter wrote:
Dan Sherman wrote:ffmpeg supports DNxHR encoding, and I'm pretty sure it's supported on all three major operating systems as well.


could you please write down a working command line example, how to encode dnxhr by ffmpeg?
i could not find anything useful in the official documentation and changelogs.


yea, it's hidden it's a profile under DNxHD, Andrew Kolakowski (a member here) turned me on to it.

Code: Select all
-i input -c:v dnxhd -profile:v dnxhr_sq output


right now, dnxhr_lb, dnxhr_sq, & dnxhr_hq are supported.


Latest ffmpeg has all profiles now, including DNxHR 444- only 10bit versions though.

dnxhr_hqx (you may also need to add -pix_fmt yuv422p10le)
dnxhr_444 (you may also need to add -pix_fmt yuv444p10le)
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Craig Marshall

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Re: ProRes encoding on windows

PostWed Aug 09, 2017 8:35 pm

Fusion Studio ProRes out on Win 10 has been tested successfully on the LiftGammaGain forum but audio support is limited. (stereo only?)

An alternative is Wayne Norton's latest 'Dali' suite at www.HDCinematics.com - free or very low cost as he only charger for Support Packages if required.
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Martin Schitter

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Re: ProRes encoding on windows

PostWed Aug 09, 2017 10:15 pm

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:Latest ffmpeg has all profiles now, including DNxHR 444- only 10bit versions though.


it also now supports SpeedHQ -- it's just another relative new intermediate codec full of MPEG-2 similarities. (http://blog.newtek.com/blog/2017/04/19/ ... es-global/)
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Re: ProRes encoding on windows

PostWed Aug 09, 2017 10:35 pm

Craig Marshall wrote:Fusion Studio ProRes out on Win 10 has been tested successfully on the LiftGammaGain forum but audio support is limited. (stereo only?)

An alternative is Wayne Norton's latest 'Dali' suite at http://www.HDCinematics.com - free or very low cost as he only charger for Support Packages if required.


And at least a half dozen other free/non-commercial/proprietary tools. There is a solution for just about everybody except those who insist on a ProRes encoder in DR. I am so tired of seeing this question on this forum, BMD support should seriously make a sticky listing all the ways one can encode ProRes on a PC. The list is hardly small and always growing.
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: ProRes encoding on windows

PostWed Aug 09, 2017 10:45 pm

It' all just different GUIs on top off ffmpeg.
Worse part is that not a single of these GUIs offer well defined preset which would make a "proper" ProRes file with as correct metadata etc. as ffmepg code offers.

Instead do wasting money just grab latest ffmpeg (it has prores_ks multithreaded) and run this:

1. For properly encoded as interlaced top field ProRes file (24bit PCM audio):
ffmpeg -i "source" -metadata:s "encoder=Apple ProRes 422 HQ" -vendor apl0 -vf "setfield=1, fieldorder=tff" -movflags write_colr -flags "+ildct+ilme+bitexact" -chunk_duration 500K -c:v prores_ks -profile:v 3 -timecode "10:00:00:00" -c:a pcm_s24le "out_ProResHQ.mov"

remove -timecode "10:00:00:00" option if don't want to specify one, but copy timecode from source file (if it has one).

2. For progressive file:
ffmpeg -i "source" -metadata:s "encoder=Apple ProRes 422 HQ" -vendor apl0 -movflags write_colr -flags bitexact -chunk_duration 500K -c:v prores_ks -profile:v 3 -timecode "10:00:00:00" -c:a pcm_s24le "out_ProResHQ.mov"

3. For ProRes 444 (or 444 XQ)
ffmpeg -i "source" -pix_fmt yuv444p10le -metadata:s "encoder=Apple ProRes 4444" -vendor apl0 -movflags write_colr -flags bitexact -chunk_duration 500K -c:v prores_ks -profile:v 4 -timecode "10:00:00:00" -c:a pcm_s24le "out_ProRes444.mov"

If you wan too keep alpha use: -pix_fmt yuva444p10le. If you want to control 8 v. 16bits for alpha channel add: -alpha_bits 8 or -alpha_bits 16. By default (no alpha switch) means 16bit alpha.

If you need other than ProResHQ, just change profile:v number:
0 : ProRes 422 Proxy
1 : ProRes 422 LT
2 : ProRes 422
3 : ProRes 422 HQ
4: ProRes 4444
5: ProRes 4444 XQ

and text in encoder to match official Apple naming (as above).

This creates well defined ProRes MOV file (with proper color tag and names)- more "correct" than any of those GUI based solutions.
Last edited by Andrew Kolakowski on Thu Aug 10, 2017 11:10 am, edited 7 times in total.
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Craig Marshall

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Re: ProRes encoding on windows

PostWed Aug 09, 2017 10:49 pm

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:...Worse part is that not a single of these GUIs offer well defined preset which would make a "proper" ProRes file with as correct metadata etc. as ffmepg code offers.


As you keep saying so why don't you write a GUI and offer it? I'm sure you would get a lot of support...
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Michael Del Papa

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Re: ProRes encoding on windows

PostWed Aug 09, 2017 10:55 pm

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:It' all just different GUIs on top off ffmpeg.


Not true. I have vetted and use several of the products on Apple's ProRes Authorized list, none of which are based on ffmpeg/ffmbc (despite Apple's the scary language against using such).
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Re: ProRes encoding on windows

PostWed Aug 09, 2017 11:01 pm

Michael Del Papa wrote:...Not true. I have vetted and use several of the products on Apple's ProRes Authorized list, none of which are based on ffmpeg/ffmbc...


Such as Assimilate 'Scratch' for example.
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Re: ProRes encoding on windows

PostWed Aug 09, 2017 11:09 pm

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:It' all just different GUIs on top off ffmpeg.
Worse part is that not a single of these GUIs offer well defined preset which would make a "proper" ProRes file with as correct metadata etc. as ffmepg code offers.


Strange, Fusion is not listed on the Apple ProRes Authrorized Product list. Are you saying that Fusion uses ffmpeg? I don't have Fusion.
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Re: ProRes encoding on windows

PostWed Aug 09, 2017 11:12 pm

Fusion 9 Studio has Apple authorized ProRes render support on all platforms.
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: ProRes encoding on windows

PostWed Aug 09, 2017 11:32 pm

Michael Del Papa wrote:
Andrew Kolakowski wrote:It' all just different GUIs on top off ffmpeg.


Not true. I have vetted and use several of the products on Apple's ProRes Authorized list, none of which are based on ffmpeg/ffmbc (despite Apple's the scary language against using such).


Show me 1 solution which is not Apple certified or uses different than ffmpeg code?
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Re: ProRes encoding on windows

PostWed Aug 09, 2017 11:43 pm

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:Show me 1 solution which is not Apple certified or uses different than ffmpeg code?


I honestly don't understand what you want me to show you. I realize that many GUIs are built on top of ffmpeg, but when I said "free/non-commercial/proprietary tools", I wasn't constraining myself to just the "different GUIs on top off ffmpeg" you speak of. I guess some things gets lost in translation on a forum.

Dwayne, thank you for the clarification.
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: ProRes encoding on windows

PostWed Aug 09, 2017 11:50 pm

Small lost in translation- we know that there are certified products. All others are based on 1 and the same main code. There were some like Miraizon which were based also on the same code, but with some modifications.
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Re: ProRes encoding on windows

PostThu Aug 10, 2017 12:01 am

Yes, but the million dollar question seems to be which ones (of the couple of hundred) are certified for the PC (and offer trial/non-commercial versions, if you please)? It seems to be the little secret that often goes unmentioned on this forum.

If I read Dwayne's comment correctly, only Fusion 9 Studio has ProRes encoding on a PC, not the free version?

I don't know Assimilate Scratch.
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Re: ProRes encoding on windows

PostThu Aug 10, 2017 12:04 am

No secret at all :)

https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT200321

+ common sense: don't expect 20$ or even 100$ transcoder (specially from unknown company) to have certified ProRes.
Apple list should be quite accurate- maybe it takes sometime bit of time to update it, but they keep updating it for sure.

Fusion Studio only.

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