Bolex Log/Wide Gamut Support Request

There are tangible benefits to using Bolex Log and Bolex Wide Gamut RGB--compared to BMDFilm--when decoding DNGs. It would be as much of a benefit to BMD camera users as it would be for Digital Bolex users to have Bolex Log and Bolex Wide Gamut RGB supported in the Camera Raw panel of DaVinci Resolve.

The biggest benefit right now is that highlight information that exists >5 stops above middle grey would be preserved instead of clipped. This affects nearly every BMD camera at some point, especially when you're exposing for higher ISOs. Considering that more cameras are beginning to support DNG encoding while also expanding their dynamic range and base sensitivities, this is only going to become a bigger problem in the future.

The specifications for Bolex Log and Bolex Wide Gamut RGB are documented and published openly by Eddie Barton, Digital Bolex's colour engineer. As a BMD and Digital Bolex camera owner, I'm invested in getting the best image I can out of my gear and hope that BMD will consider adding these options in future revisions of the Camera Raw panel.

Seconded, this would be a great feature. I use DaVinci Resolve for processing and coloring my Digital Bolex footage, and would these options for decoding DNGs.

debayer the camera in linear light and use a dctl with the formulae specified by the white paper to make it bolex.

debayer the camera in linear light and use a dctl with the formulae specified by the white paper to make it bolex.

Not everyone owns Studio, so DCTL isn't a complete solution. We already have a LUT, but having to use a workaround all of the time gets annoying. Having to use up the Input LUT space and needing to create groups just to get the clips into the correct space. We would appreciate the native support greatly.

I'm also chiming in to see Bolex Log/Wide Gamut (and ACES IDT!) supported in the free Resolve version. I had previously made a feature request through the Resolve feedback form, but apparently BMD doesn't read it.

I do have Resolve Studio and use DCTL to inplement the expression functions from this camera, but I have a vfx compositing background and can work with colour science more easily than the average camera owner. It would be great if the colour science was integrated at a built-in level in Resolve so others can use it more easily.

The camera has much improved images since the updated colour science came out, and it's great it has a *published white paper*. Why do BMD still not have this for their own cameras?? I had not thought about using the Bolex colour science with BMD cameras, but it could be an interesting option.

Yes! PLEASE!

I respectfully disagree.

having yet another color space just because "I want it" add unnecessary complication.

one of the best logarithmic container is alexa wide gamut, if the issue is just to have a "better container" than BM color space, then just put as first operandi the color space transform and go BM_TO_ALEXA log/wide gamut.

I don't see any advantage in yet another log space.

I respectfully disagree.

having yet another color space just because "I want it" add unnecessary complication.

one of the best logarithmic container is alexa wide gamut, if the issue is just to have a "better container" than BM color space, then just put as first operandi the color space transform and go BM_TO_ALEXA log/wide gamut.

I don't see any advantage in yet another log space.

There are currently three colour space options and five gamma options for decoding DNG, and you think adding one more well documented spec to each of those lists would cause too much confusion? You honestly think that, for the majority of Resolve users, that is more complicated than baking your own DCTL based on the white paper?

Look man, I don't know what your deal is but this is a feature that would matter a lot to the people who shoot with the Digital Bolex, and it would give other camera owners new options too. You seem like a capable colourist, so this feature isn't really for you; it's for the people like me who are savvy enough to know our way around but not skilled enough to dive right into the numbers.

You really ought to consider that not everyone has your skillset, or approaches this work the same way you do. Right now I eat up the 3D Input LUT space with my BT709 -> Bolex Log LUT and it would help my workflow a lot if they could just let me decode DNGs that way so it'd be a simpler process.

I respectfully disagree.

having yet another color space just because "I want it" add unnecessary complication.

one of the best logarithmic container is alexa wide gamut, if the issue is just to have a "better container" than BM color space, then just put as first operandi the color space transform and go BM_TO_ALEXA log/wide gamut.

I don't see any advantage in yet another log space.

Then we disagree. It may not be advantageous to you, but for the number of D16 users asking me how to decode D16 DNGs in Resolve to Bolex Log, this would make life much simpler. It would also help those that record Bolex Log clips over HDMI and want to use the color managed timeline or ACES workflow of Resolve. It does nothing to negatively affect anything anyone would use Resolve for. It only helps those that ask for it.

debayer the camera in linear light and use a dctl with the formulae specified by the white paper to make it bolex.

Thats not a option for most users. For a long time i search for a long time a manual or tutorial how to add ProPhotoRGB color space, even ask this forum viewtopic.php?f=21&t=53493 but still don't find any answer about this.
So i decide to keep my work in REC2020 gamut as most common and stable wide gamut color space today.

is it this the current workflow?

https://iaremrsir.wordpress.com/tag/bolex-wide-gamut/

can you post 1 frame with an exposure chart and 1 worth a Macbeth?

thanks.

Please! Please! [insert Cosmo Kramer pleading photo here.] I would be forever grateful. An owner of several BMD products, a filmmaker, I'm learning more about Resolve, have used it for prep and basic color, before sending it on to true colorists. This feature would go a long way for me, making life so much easier.

D16 users are a passionate group, resourceful and curious. I would not be surprised to see many begin to use Resolve as their primary editor, if BMD will support them.

I also know of several colorists who work in Resolve every day of the year who love grading the D16 image—support those pros, make it easier for us to get our material to them! Thanks for your time! JB

I'm sorry, I'm not buying this: you guys are asking to add a colour space for a camera that is discontinued by the manufacturer, based on their own website: https://www.digitalbolex.com/thank-you/.

then, as some of the post mentioned, not all the user have the studio version that can take advantage of dctl.

so, you want the R&D team at BM to spend hours to implement a deprecated color space while some of you are not willing to pay 995$ for a license. I don't think is going to happen.

Alexa is a well known color space in excess of 15 stops of latitude with wide gamut that can hold the BM capture range beautifully: map it to that, it is very similar to what you're trying to achieve and it is available now.

m2c.

I'm sorry, I'm not buying this: you guys are asking to add a colour space for a camera that is discontinued by the manufacturer, based on their own website: https://www.digitalbolex.com/thank-you/.

From the article:

While we aren’t going to be making cameras anymore, we’re not going anywhere—you don’t have to go home, but you can stay here ... Our phone will stay on, and all warranties, repairs, and upgrades will continue to be performed by our team as we honor our commitment to the users who have chosen to enter into a relationship with us.

Just because production has halted does not mean we've stopped developing and working on improving the camera.

I still don't understand why you're so strongly opposed to it. Especially since it does nothing negatively to you.

We're asking for simplicity that others already have. If Resolve supported importer plugins, I would write it myself, but it doesn't. We're just asking for an hour or two of work to implement a color matrix and a transfer function as an option in the camera raw panel for Cinema DNG.

Eddie, I understand you, I'm just looking from what I can read about the product.


from a professional point of view, I rather have those "two-three hours" used to implement a feature that benefit the larger part of the base paying clientele, there is nothing personal, you're asking for something very niche wise while there are already plenty of workflow that solve your problem,while there are other functions broken/missing that needs precious programmer time. if I have to choose, I prefer use the time to get the ACES full certification.

there are other functions broken/missing that needs precious programmer time. if I have to choose, I prefer use the time to get the ACES full certification.

+1

I'd like to think there was still some camaraderie between these companies that started making cameras that output CinemaDNG raw files, as I heard not too long ago how BlackMagic, Ikonoskop and Digital Bolex used to apparently meet up at the CinemaDNG group at NAB (or was it Siggraph?) and share some tips with each other. Now that Ikonoskop is gone and Digital Bolex is not actively producing a camera at this time, it would be cool to see BlackMagic come through and make Resolve support the 1000-odd D16 users who have now got a great published colour spec courtesy of Eddie's work.

Walter, I see the points you are making about transforming to Alexa, but I have to ask why BMD then makes (but does not publish) a new log curve for every camera, and why Sony and Red publish many log curves and gamuts, and why BMD does not publish a white paper, if we have all we need with Alexa LogC and WG. Agreed Arri got it right. But Eddie also did a very simple colour science like Arri, for CinemaDNG, that is publicly available and covers all the essentials.

Out of interest, is there a BMD gamut to Alexa Wide Gamut transform in Resolve? I then wonder why so much effort has been put into LUT solutions like Cinelog-C, which seems to be a very well thought out solution. Regardless, I still strongly support adding Bolex Log/WG to Resolve.

I rather have those "two-three hours" used to implement a feature that benefit the larger part of the base paying clientele

Get this; I agree with some of what you're saying. Bolex Log/WG support is a niche feature, but so are a lot of Resolve's features. As one example, how many people are shooting with Monochromatic cameras that generate DNGs? And yet that feature was implemented not long after the Digital Bolex D16M was released. Niche features get implemented all the time! Even ones that, for whatever reason, you don't use. Niche features that grow the installed base of the non-studio version of Resolve and, hopefully, turn in to sales of the studio version. Wasn't that the strategy they had in mind when they released a free version of the program? To grow sales? Sales that turn into capital that can be invested in infrastructure to create a better product?

Besides, some of us are licensees. Seems more than a little condescending to assume that the >1,000 members of the DB community are all freeloaders.

...there are already plenty of workflow that solve your problem...

Here's a link to a handful of charts shot with the Digital Bolex, and here is a link to the Digital Bolex Facebook group. I mean this sincerely; you're clearly a qualified colourist, working at a world renowned post-production facility. If you have some advice or alternate workflows for the community we would gladly accept it. I am a perpetual student and would be overjoyed if you could write a brief post on how you'd handle this footage in a Resolve workflow.

We still definitely want Bolex Log support though. It would still be extremely helpful to those of us who own them or are working with the footage constantly.

I'd like to think there was still some camaraderie between these companies that started making cameras that output CinemaDNG raw files, as I heard not too long ago how BlackMagic, Ikonoskop and Digital Bolex used to apparently meet up at the CinemaDNG group at NAB (or was it Siggraph?) and share some tips with each other.

I enjoy and appreciate this notion very much, and also that there should exist a common ground of interests or fraternity between CinemaDNG users, and especially so amongst those that prefer to shoot in Super 16 sensor formats (a club that also BMCC 2.5K users may belong to, besides BMPCC owners). Why the latter? Because both Ikonoskop and Digital Bolex wanted to create Digital Super 16 Film cameras, that captured the feeling and look of old 16 mm film stock, to which also Blackmagic can count itself when introducing the BMPCC shortly after the D16, and a tradition they have preserved with the BMMCC.

So yes, although I count myself being a "Blackmagic fan boy", I am all behind that Blackmagic Design will introduce features that are adapted for both the Ikonoskop A-Cam dII and the Digital Bolex D16. Wouldn't it be swell if we all found a common ground in DaVinci Resolve, and shared experiences? Definitely! Altough I love the images coming from the BMPCC, I also very much enjoy what I have seen coming out from both the Ikonoskop and the Digital Bolex, especially the latter. I might even buy one in the future...

In my humble opinion as you have the math:
Https://iaremrsir.wordpress.com/tag/bolex-wide-gamut/
The simplest and make your own OFX plugin. In addition you will have the possibility to have your preferred settings.

Is this just an idea to try? (For windows)
Download VS 2013 community (upgrade5) => free
Dowload Cuda Toolkit cuda_7.5.18_win10.exe => free if you want to accelerate the calculations. (Or openCL)

For other OS, there are also free solutions.

Take as a template C: \ ProgramData \ Blackmagic Design \ DaVinci Resolve \ Support \ Developer \ OpenFX \ => GainPlugin

As you are in community, I am sure that together you will get good results.
(I start with OFX / CUDA ... just take the time). That's just my opinion and unfortunately not much time.

I have another suggestion: shoot a DSC One-Shot chart and just correct it to create normal grayscale values and correct chroma/hue values. Save that look as a PowerGrade, and use that as a starting point for all future sessions. For all practical purposes, that becomes your "starting look."

I have done CinemaDNG projects without any charts at all, and once you figure out how hard you can push the image (and sometimes it does break pretty easily), it's not hard to do this. In hindsight, I think it's unfortunate that Bolex didn't model their color science after existing cameras in order to take advantage of that post workflow and color science.

In hindsight, I think it's unfortunate that Bolex didn't model their color science after existing cameras in order to take advantage of that post workflow and color science.

I mean, would that even be possible due to licensing issues?

Excuse me, I do not know BOLEX but I found on this page:
Http://www.digitalbolex.com/normalizing ... lor-space/
Luts and different solutions. These solutions are not good?

Resolve already does camera specific gamut/gamma for DNG footage. For example, here are the V-Gamut/V-log settings for the Varicam LT:


I can't imagine adding a Bolex Gamut/Bolex Log option being more than a 10 minute copy-paste work. Plus, it will potentially drive Bolex users towards using Resolve, which should be a good thing, I guess.

Excuse me, I do not know BOLEX but I found on this page:
Http://www.digitalbolex.com/normalizing ... lor-space/
Luts and different solutions. These solutions are not good?

Unfortunately no. That article was written back in 2014, before the Digital Bolex received several important firmware updates that significantly improved image quality. This is the current workflow to get the best images out of the D16.

I can't imagine adding a Bolex Gamut/Bolex Log option being more than a 10 minute copy-paste work. Plus, it will potentially drive Bolex users towards using Resolve, which should be a good thing, I guess.

That's definitely what we're hoping, although I totally understand that complex software development is trickier than I'm giving it credit for.

That's definitely what we're hoping, although I totally understand that complex software development is trickier than I'm giving it credit for.

Again, it's not rocket science. Shoot a calibrated (predictable) color chart like the DSC One-Shot and then use scopes and the controls within Resolve to normalize the image:



You're making this out to be harder than it really is. The moment you have the chart, you'll have a very good sense of what the camera's own color science is doing and where the grayscale and color adjustments need to be made, using a scope.

Excuse me, I do not know BOLEX but I found on this page:
Http://www.digitalbolex.com/normalizing ... lor-space/
Luts and different solutions. These solutions are not good?

Unfortunately no. That article was written back in 2014, before the Digital Bolex received several important firmware updates that significantly improved image quality. This is the current workflow to get the best images out of the D16.

I can't imagine adding a Bolex Gamut/Bolex Log option being more than a 10 minute copy-paste work. Plus, it will potentially drive Bolex users towards using Resolve, which should be a good thing, I guess.

That's definitely what we're hoping, although I totally understand that complex software development is trickier than I'm giving it credit for.

You know this site ?
Https://cameramanben.github.io/LUTCalc/ ... index.html
New in 2.91
* New Feature - Bolex Log and Bolex Wide Gamut.

Make the selection: generic camera and then rec gamma,Rec Gamut,etc ...=> Bolex and after Log, wide gamut, etc...Name the LUT et after make your selection (33x33x33, In / out range: data / grading lut, LUT TYPE : Davinci Resolve, etc..)
and click on generate => download the lut and test. (Which I did not do )

Good luck.

You know this site ?
Https://cameramanben.github.io/LUTCalc/ ... index.html
New in 2.91
* New Feature - Bolex Log and Bolex Wide Gamut.

Make the selection: generic camera and then rec gamma,Rec Gamut,etc ...=> Bolex and after Log, wide gamut, etc...Name the LUT et after make your selection (33x33x33, In / out range: data / grading lut, LUT TYPE : Davinci Resolve, etc..)
and click on generate => download the lut and test. (Which I did not do )

Good luck.

That's essentially what's already being done with the LUT I made for 709 to Bolex Log. The point of this request is to render that step unnecessary by including the functions in Resolve natively.

That's essentially what's already being done with the LUT I made for 709 to Bolex Log. The point of this request is to render that step unnecessary by including the functions in Resolve natively.

The trick there is that the camera is going to respond differently at different light levels, with different color temperatures, with different lenses, different exposures, and so on. But you can tell what's going on with the chart.

In effect, the colorist can be the LUT in terms of "normalizing" the image based on quantifiable data. Where it gets dicey is having to do this without charts.

Reviving this old thread to introduce a question:

I'm looking to get footage from bolex and blackmagic cameras into the same colorspace for grading - ideally Davinci wide gamut. For the blackmagic cameras I'm using a colorspace transform. For Bolex, I'm not sure what to do.

By trial and error I hacked a solution using colorspace transforms, but I'm not sure if there might be a better way. At the head and tail of the grade I got pretty good results using BMD Film as the colorspace/gamma in the raw panel, and then deploying a transform from Blackmagic Design 4K film Gen 3 colorspace, with BMD extended video gen 5 gamma, into my timeline colorspace (davinci widegamut), and then the usual transform to Rec 709 at the end node.

If I instead use the Bolex log freeware LUT to change from Rec709 to Bolex Log, I'm not sure how to get from Bolex log to Davinci Wide Gamut, or even from Bolex log to Rec709 at the end.

Edit: I also by trial and error arrived at the following settings for doing a colorspace transform from Bolex Log to Davinci wide gamut:
Input colorspace: BMD 4.6k Film Gen 4 [ sRGB also looked pretty good but not sure if that would lose color detail?)
Input Gamma: Davinci Intermediate (basically the same as the timeline is already set to)
... note that using this method of transforming from Bolex log, my highlights are pushed further and have more blue in them

Any pointers would be much appreciated.

It looks like the Lut calc tool linked above has Bolex Log, so you can make a Bolex in, Davinchi WG/Intermediate out LUT.
https://cameramanben.github.io/LUTCalc/ ... index.html

Your last node of your color page will be a CST for DWG to Rec709 like an other color management. pipeline. You just have that LUT instead of an input CST.

The automatic color management system added in V17 is not going to be a great fit, because it basically demands the footage be one of the color spaces supported in the CST. You can get around this, but at that point it is just as much work as rolling your own with CSTs.

Thanks, ill give that a try

It looks like the Lut calc tool linked above has Bolex Log, so you can make a Bolex in, Davinchi WG/Intermediate out LUT.
https://cameramanben.github.io/LUTCalc/ ... index.html

I tried the LUT generator. It doesn't seem to be working correctly. From what I can tell it is converting gamma but not colorspace.

I've attached screenshots of the settings I used

following up on this. changing the color space on the LUT generator doesn't seem to affect the the actions of the LUT that is generated.

Even if you just want to grade in bolex log and output Rec 709 - without normalizing to Davinci Wide Gamut - how would you do it? Are there presets or LUTs to transform Bolex log into rec 709?