Blackmagic Forum

I had a 5.1 sound mix delivered to me as 6 different WAV files (L,R,C,LFE,Ls,Rs), which I've placed in 6 different mono tracks in Resolve and attempted to map to the right channels, but no matter what I do I can't get a signal out that is not Stereo. I used to do this in 12.5, but in 14 I'm baffled. I thought there was a bus type selection from the upper right of the mixer on the Edit page, but that menu only toggles between mixer and meters.





Any ideas? I've hunted around in the manual, but can't figure it out

(Also, it's unclear how the panning control relates to 5.1. Is the LFE dead center and the Center channel center-front?)

Thanks!

Have a look in the Fairlight menu, bus format. Make a 5.1 main bus.
You can also setup the speaker config in preference, system, video and audio.

Thanks for the tips. Got it working!

Peter Chamberlain wrote:Have a look in the Fairlight menu, bus format. Make a 5.1 main bus.
You can also setup the speaker config in preference, system, video and audio.

I've tried this and everything else I can think of, I have 6 mono files that would need to be interleaved to make a 5.1 audio output. Currently I have to output as 6 mono because I can't get the LFE track to route to the LFE output properly



You can see a test file here using tone. Here are the pan settings:



Switching spread to PNT doesn't help. Having Boom turned on is the only way I can get anything output on channel 4, as you'd expect, but there's nothing I can do to stop it also being output to other tracks. Furthermore, even if it did only output to channel 4, I cannot have Boom set to 0, only 0.1, so it will always be louder than anything supplied to me.

It's not the end of the world or anything, I just thought Resolve was supposed to be able to do this kind of thing now.

Thanks for posting this! I hadn't yet tested to see if the LFE was getting sent to channel 4 when panned to dead center. Yikes! This needs to get fixed.

And on beta 8?

Still a problem on latest beta
We need to be able to just output LFE to channel 4 and no other channels.
Also at 0.0 and not 0.1 as mentioned above.

Works as expected with beta 8 with a Link Group active in both 5.1 and 7.1 fixed channel configurations.

Glenn Venghaus wrote:Still a problem on latest beta
We need to be able to just output LFE to channel 4 and no other channels.
Also at 0.0 and not 0.1 as mentioned above.

Try with boom off.

Great stuff man. Was absolutely clueless as to the function of a link group.
Works perfect and saves me 6 mono busses.

But besides , i still think the 2 mentioned issues should be fixed as more a bug then a feature.
The pan layout should be such that you can add LFE to a channel/bus (and at 0.0 !) using the 5.1 panner, but also direct it to a single channel. This is the case in any other 5.1 panner tool i can think off.
Seems like a simple fix (maybe a toggle button or something)
But its good that that there are multiple (although initially i would say less intuitive) ways to skin a (5.1) cat.

Peter Chamberlain wrote:

Glenn Venghaus wrote:Still a problem on latest beta
We need to be able to just output LFE to channel 4 and no other channels.
Also at 0.0 and not 0.1 as mentioned above.

Try with boom off.

Nope. Still mixes to other channels. The link group as just suggested is a good bypass/sollution for now, but i think it should be fixed to allow this via 5.1 panner.

p.s. I vaguely remember it sort of worked in one of the earlier betas in a wierd but somehow logical combo of pan off and boom on but not 100% sure as moved on to some other testing at that time. Thats not the case anymore as pan off also disables the boom send. That may be a solution. Or a toggle somewhere to "boom only" or something.
p.s. More estetic and very low on importance scale but why not name boom "lfe send" instead ?

Also this link groups is only a solution for finalising an already made 5.1 (6xmono) stem set.
If you have diff mono and stereo tracks that you want to compose into a 5.1 space , you need to be able to for example send some LF vfx track only to the LFE channel , which currently does not work due to described issue.

Also this link groups is only a solution for finalising an already made 5.1 (6xmono) stem set.
If you have diff mono and stereo tracks that you want to compose into a 5.1 space , you need to be able to for example send some LF vfx track only to the LFE channel , which currently does not work due to described issue.

Works as expected on my install.

Enable Boom on all the appropriate channels, and dial in the appropriate Send level to the LFE.

This functions in the same way as using Channel Sends to an Aux Buss. No Link Group is required.

Reynaud Venter wrote:

Also this link groups is only a solution for finalising an already made 5.1 (6xmono) stem set.
If you have diff mono and stereo tracks that you want to compose into a 5.1 space , you need to be able to for example send some LF vfx track only to the LFE channel , which currently does not work due to described issue.

Works as expected on my install.

Enable Boom on all the appropriate channels, and dial in the appropriate Send level to the LFE.

This functions in the same way as using Channel Sends to an Aux Buss. No Link Group is required.

You miss the point. You can send the required level to LFE channel, but not ONLY to LFE channel. It also send it to other channels depending on its position in the 5.1 panner. You can even see it on your screenshot, where next to LFE you see signal on another channel as a result.
So worcable in most cases except where you ONLY want to send to LFE
Example, sound design/sculpting sub basses for explosions , crashes, rumbles, earthquake etc that you feed only into LFE, not in any other channel.

It works as expected on my install.

Mixer Channel 1 is routed to Buss Channel 1 of a 7.1 Master Buss "MIX", and Mixer Channel 1 sends signal to the LFE via the Boom control in Mixer Channel 1's Panner, which is then routed to Channel 4 of the Master Buss.

Solo Mixer Channel 1 and confirm signal is only present on Buss Channel 1 and Channel 4 of the Master Buss "MIX".

Route the Master Bus "MIX" output to an input on another channel "PRINT" and Record. The Print track will contain (in my case) an 8 track recording, with signal only on Channel 1 "Left" and channel 4 "LFE". As expected.

Repeat for Mixer Channel 2, et cetera.

Sounds like a very convoluted way to circumvent a simple problem. If it works for you , thats great.
In all my other DAWS i just use the 5.1 panner and in there send either send part of the signal also to LFE (like currently also possible in resolve panner) or send it only to LFE using the same interface. Like you can also just send a signal to Left surround only , or right front only, using the panner without having to setup submixes etc.

So using the scenario outlined, you wouldn't want to route Mixer Channel to Channel 1 of the Master Buss, instead have Mixer Channel 1 only route to the LFE or Channel 4 of the Master Buss "MIX"?

In that case, route Channel 1 in the same way but pull Channel 1's fader down to negative infinity. Only the LFE or Channel 4 will receive signal from Channel 1, as confirmed on the Master Buss "MIX".

Actually , this is eactly waht i was looking for .

Without extra bussing routing etc. Just a single track with a 5.1 panner directly to the 5.1 master.
Set "boom" to "on", set "pre(fader)" to "on" and then pull down fader to the bottom. Voila !!! Only sends to LFE.

Thanks man !!!

edit: thinking back , thats probably how i got it to work on the older beta i mentioned and forgot that i used pre-fader send to achieve that.

Reynaud Venter wrote:Works as expected with beta 8 with a Link Group active in both 5.1 and 7.1 fixed channel configurations.

Yes! Thanks for this!

But... Link groups are only mentioned a couple of times in the manual, and their role is never described despite the audio section looking pretty complete, so this definitely needs to be addressed as this solution is incredibly unintuitive for those who haven't worked with dedicated audio software before. I imagine the audio side of things will confuse a lot of people in v14, and telling people to RTFM is all well and good as long as the info is actually there in the first place...



Also, some bugs/queries

- the green dots, denoting speaker setup, appear inconsistently. As you can see in the above image, the right channel has no left speaker dot, and every channel other than 1 is missing at least one speaker. I had much the same in my 5.1 link group, until I hit reset (on channel 1 I think) and they all appeared now, apart from the rear left speaker dot on channel 6. Just a UI bug sure, but odd nonetheless

- on channels other then 4 for the LFE, I still need panning turned on or else they output to every other channel. And yet moving the blue pan dot around doesn't do anything. I'd expect as much, yet what is the point in even being able to do so? Should it just be greyed out or disappear?

- I can move the blue dot separately for every channel other than channel 1, where if I move it around then the blue dot for every channel moves as well. They are linked after all, but isn't this a contradiction? Why this different behaviour for channel 1 vs the rest? (And again, why be able to move them around at all if it doesn't do anything to the audio output?)

- What's the difference between linking as 5.1 versus 5.1 SMPTE? Doesn't seem to make a difference to the output

- I have 6 mono channels of audio tone within this setup, going to a 5.1 submix and a stereo main, with no 2 channels playing at the same time. When it comes to the main mix, it is loudest when the L/R channels are playing, then slightly quieter for the Centre channel, then quieter still for Ls/Rs. Is this expected? (And again to clarify, only a single channel is playing at any given time so there's no doubling up here). All 6 channels are at the same level in the submix, with the LS and RS channels matching this in the stereo main (also the LFE), and the L/R/C channels all being louder

- I managed to glitch Boom into being at 0.0 on 2 separate occasions but I really cannot figure out how (edit: see below for one solution)

Reynaud Venter wrote:So using the scenario outlined, you wouldn't want to route Mixer Channel to Channel 1 of the Master Buss, instead have Mixer Channel 1 only route to the LFE or Channel 4 of the Master Buss "MIX"?

In that case, route Channel 1 in the same way but pull Channel 1's fader down to negative infinity. Only the LFE or Channel 4 will receive signal from Channel 1, as confirmed on the Master Buss "MIX".

That really should be in the manual too, it's veering into 'one weird trick' territory! Though it's still affected by the Boom 0.1 thing

OK I figured out how to get Boom to 0.0 but also found another oddity.

Take 6 mono tracks (for 5.1) and route them to a 5.1 submix, but do not change any panning. (You may want to save the project here and turn off Live Save/Auto Save, so that you can revisit this state later for testing, or maybe just duplicate the sequence). Link them as 5.1 in Link Groups. Observe how channel 4 correctly sends to the LFE channel; however both panning AND Boom are turned on still, with Boom set to 0.0 (!!)

With channel 4 panning still turned on, switch off Boom. Now nothing sends. Turn it back on and turn off panning. Now it DOES send. With panning turned off, switch off Boom. Still sends!

Now, go into Link Groups and unlink your 5.1 group. Remember how before linking them you hadn't adjusted panning? Well now, panning is adjusted for 5.1. And check out channel 4. As long as panning is turned off, it will correctly send only to the LFE channel Compare with the sequence as it was before Linking, changing panning to the same values does not yield the same result.

I'm sure this is a bug though I'm not sure I want it fixed. Could there be a scenario where this behaviour is problematic? Note that for this to work, before you unlink the group you must have panning turned off for channel 4.

NIce but crazy find. This looks more similar to what i experienced in the past and tried to remember but could not so i had not reported it to BM. Switching on and off stuff changed its behaviour for the same end state (like panning off with boom on and sending, which i manually with identical settings could not repeat). Seems there are some minor hidden hickups in there that will slowly filter out in the coming betas (if we help identify them of course with a clear repeatability description.

edit:
Feels like when enabeling the grouping function it hard routes the individual channels to a single target channel , but does not undo it in all cases when you unlink. Then toggling the pan on off button pushes the channel routting back to the standard panned vs unpanned (direct to all (5) channels) mode.
Lets call it a sticky switch

Same gui settings should result in the same actual settings. No hidden stuff . Would make troubleshooting routing issues on large setups a nightmare.

As someone who is a colorist and a maker of DCPs, NOT a sound mixer, I'd humbly request that there be a simpler, more intuitive way to simply route 6 separate tracks (provided to me by a real sound mixer) to specific channels for output. You could do this in previous versions very easily. The existence of Fairlight shouldn't mean I have to muck about in it to do a simple task I used to be able to do without even reading the manual!

+1.
If you can do it without looking into manual it means you deal with well designed software.

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:+1.
If you can do it without looking into manual it means you deal with well designed software.

True, but if you can't be bothered to read the manual when you don't understand something then I have no sympathy for you

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:If you can do it without looking into manual it means you deal with well designed software.

I defy you to use Premiere Pro, Avid Media Composer, or Pro Tools without looking at the manual.

Marc Wielage wrote:

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:If you can do it without looking into manual it means you deal with well designed software.

I defy you to use Premiere Pro, Avid Media Composer, or Pro Tools without looking at the manual.

Well, I think I may use Premiere without a manual, but for sure waste time for I would figure out options quicker with the manual. (and I confess it would also be connected to Adobe's addiction to copy FCP7 for years and years... and I knew fcp7 by heart ).

On the other hand, I don't think Andrew was reckoning not to read the manual, I think I'm understanding him well. He's just writing about user-friendly and relevant GUI which lead the user to do things just because it's the obvious way to achieve them.

Brief, in the case of 5.1 output, BMD perfectly knows they're dealing with plural customers : those who never did it, those who did it on ProTools or stuff like it, those who only deal with sound but start video now, those who try not to export anymore etc...

In this context, of course, what's often needed should be the most obvious to perform (independently from what's yet in Resolve now). So even if no one should consider not to read the manual, simplifying the busses connections would be appreciated for sure.

Feedback very helpful. Thank you.

Hmmm...what happened to the Link Group option? It seems totally gone in the latest Beta 9

Marc Wielage wrote:

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:If you can do it without looking into manual it means you deal with well designed software.

I defy you to use Premiere Pro, Avid Media Composer, or Pro Tools without looking at the manual.

Use it every day and I don't think I ever looked into manual. If anything I use google.
I did not look into Resolve manual either
Did have some issues with multichannel audio when needed it first time in Premiere, but after 10min play with it I figure it out.
This is why I like Edius as it's fairly simple and I never had to look into manual or spent much time figuring out some functionality.
Tried to setup 5.1 export in Resolve yesterday and had full crash after few clicks

Tom Early wrote:

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:+1.
If you can do it without looking into manual it means you deal with well designed software.

True, but if you can't be bothered to read the manual when you don't understand something then I have no sympathy for you

I only look into manual if after 15min I'm still not sorted. Most manuals are total crap. Resolve manual is actually quite good.
In case of Resolve I had crash after few clicks, so gave up for now. I don't need it. Reading posts above shows that it's so complicated and convoluted. If I have 6 mono files for 5.1 and I want to just add them to video on final export then this should take few clicks.

Can anyone else please confirm that the Link Group option is gone from the menu in Beta 9?

I can. We have some issues we are chasing with linked groups.

So, what is the preferred way to skin this particular cat (send 6 already-separated mono tracks to their correct 5.1 destinations) in the release version of Resolve 14?

Robert Arnold wrote:So, what is the preferred way to skin this particular cat (send 6 already-separated mono tracks to their correct 5.1 destinations) in the release version of Resolve 14?

Using the 'one weird trick' mentioned earlier

Set up a 5.1 sub bus and have panning as shown:



Note that the level on the sub is all the way down. In the sub panning window, expand it and have Boom turned on, and set to 0.1 (since 0.0 isn't possible without the Link Groups workaround). Also have 'Pre' turned on.

Sure, 0.1 on the Boom means it will be a fraction louder but if anyone tells you they can notice then they're lying.

I have a couple of dopey questions re. SDI & multichannel audio, my apologies. My background is in pro recording studios and so the I/O conventions are very different.

Picking up on some of the thoughts about 5.1 monitoring AND seeing some of the sigs: Apparently, many are using SDI to break-out and de-embed multichannel audio? Then, this SDI is decoded via a specialised audio I/O.

Perhaps this explains why Resolve 14 makes only stereo sound via my system I/O (will not recognise ASIO), yet I can see all of the 16 ch audio routing and monitoring options in the preferences. I have a DeckLink Mini Monitor 4k & so I assume all of that multichannel audio potential is sitting right there on the SDI output (?) From one of the sigs I see the (old) HDLink Pro being used for 6-channel audio (and I assume, via a Decklink SDI output). In which case, any recommendations for an SDI to multichannel audio de-embedder? e.g.:

1) DeckLink Pro 3D is still available (albeit discontinued by BM); 6 channel analogue OP.

2) MiniConvertor SDI-Audio 4k looks promising, but only provides 4 ch analogue OP (has 8ch AES/EBU, but that's a whole other can of worms given I already have a fully configured recording studio here).

3) Apantac SDI Audio De-embedder: DA-SDI-DE. http://www.apantac.com/product-info.php?id=152

4) LYNX Technik PDM 1383. http://www.lynx-technik.com/products/ye ... -embedder/

5) Perhaps overkill, but MOTU's HDX-SI. http://www.motu.com/video-products/hdx-sdi

As Peter well knows, I'd much prefer ASIO driver support, plug and play. However, there may be some other intermediate options here if i'm on the right track?

Many thanks.

has this been fixed on the release of studio 15?

i would love to test the dcp-creation within resolve, but if i can't route the 6 mono channels i get from the sound studio properly, this won't be an option...

andi winter wrote:has this been fixed on the release of studio 15?

i would love to test the dcp-creation within resolve

Link Groups have been functional since the release of version 14.1 and version 15 still allows for compliant DCP deliverables.

I have not tested with 15.

In 14, if i do the linked group, i correctly hear the 5.1 mix.
Then the client, Amazon, want the final prores as single mono track.
Fine, in the delivery page i set output track 1 to channel 1, 2 to 2 and so on.
What i get is a QuickTime with 36 audio tracks: first channel is a 6 track with only the first filed, the seconds is a 6 tack with only one filled and so on.

That did now pass qc to say the least.

thanks.

by linked groups you mean i have to ask for one multi-channel-audio file, right?

or is there a davinci-option i am not aware of?

andi winter wrote:or is there a davinci-option i am not aware of?

Fairlight menu > Link Group

This function is outlined on page 2366 and 2367 of the version 15 manual,
but essentially Link Groups do all the heavy lifting in terms routing.

andi winter wrote:thanks.

by linked groups you mean i have to ask for one multi-channel-audio file, right?

or is there a davinci-option i am not aware of?

It's an option in the fairlight menu... It's pretty cool. It will even label your tracks as L, R, C, etc., on the fairlight page.

thanks for the answers!

but what i couldn't find in the manual: what is the difference between 5.1 and 5.1 film?

andi winter wrote:what is the difference between 5.1 and 5.1 film?

SMPTE/ITU 5.1 Channel order:
L, R, C, LFE, Ls, Rs

5.1 European Film Channel order:
L, C, R, Ls, Rs, LFE


You can confirm channel order of each Link Group format, by first creating a Link Group of 6 mono channels, unlinking the channels, and then confirming the Panning used for each channel in the Mixer.

Reset all Panners to default, and repeat.

thanks again!

bm should def update their manual accordingly.

although i am working in europe, i never heard of a european film channel order!

ALL 5.1 DCPs have this order: L/R/C/Lfe/Ls/Rs.

so 5.1 is the way to go. THANKS AGAIN!

andi winter wrote:although i am working in europe, i never heard of a european film channel order!

I posted this in a related thread:

Broadcast uses the SMPTE/ITU ordering scheme, which is the only official standard adopted by all standards bodies.

The reason for the SMPTE channel ordering scheme is because of channel pairing (L/R, C/LFE, Ls/Rs), in order to match the L/R channel pairing of stereo, to avoid channels being played back incorrectly and to prevent channels from potentially being out of phase.

The 5.1 Film channel ordering (L, C, R, Ls, Rs, LFE) never was standard in the way that the current SMPTE/ITU standard is, but was used by Dolby so it was widely adopted. But, the 5.1 Film channel ordering scheme is part of the ITU 775 spec (it’s just not a SMPTE standard), as is the 7.1 Film ordering scheme.

OOPS another thing: just checked the panning after linking to 5.1 and unlink and graphically the center channel and the lfe channel are on the same spot! (shouldn't be the LFE at the center of the panning graphic?)

andi winter wrote:just checked the panning after linking to 5.1 and unlink and graphically the center channel and the lfe channel are on the same spot! (shouldn't be the LFE at the center of the panning graphic?)

If you look at the image in my previous post, this is illustrated.

This isn't an issue as usually the LFE will be "Boom Only" enabled in the Panner, which disables the LFE channel's Panner, so the Blue bead no longer has any effect.

The Link Group performs the "Boom Only" assignment automatically, as it does for all component channels and their respective routing assignments.

thanks again for the clarification!!!

all the best
andi

is Link group still working? Because I create 6 mono tracks, set bus at 5.1, bus assign tracks to the main, but when I go to the Link Group page, its all grey out and I can't group anything, anybody can help me please?