Cineon Log clips dynamic range!

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Dmitry Shijan

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Cineon Log clips dynamic range!

PostSun Oct 01, 2017 11:37 am

I use Cineon Log as my Timeline Log curve for BMMCC RAW footage for a while. I like the contrast response it produces without any additional adjustments. Some time ago i experiment with shadows recovery from underexposed images to get wide dynamic range images. As a Log to Rec compression i usually used custom LUTs generated in LUTCalc but with Resolve 14 Color Space Transform Tool now allow clipless compression of color space and gamma.
So i ended up that boosting Expose and than lowering Gain produces exact same result as need. It keeps highlights unchanged and recovers information from deepest shadows. So i have up to 6 additional stops of slightly nosy dynamic range.
During tests with difefrent Log curves i noticed that Cineon irretrievably clips highlights after such huge expose boosts and it can not be recovered by lowering Gain. So it seems it is just a natural limitation of Cineon which was actually was designed as a Film response curve but not a HDR editing curve.

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Just to compare this s how the image looks with Expose boosted to 5 without Gain adjustment
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Color Space Transform Settings used:

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And few samples from RAW sample shared earlier by other user in other forums thread

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Re: Cineon Log clips dynamic range!

PostTue Oct 03, 2017 12:28 am

Cineon was designed to hold the dynamic range of film which is HDR.
Since Cineon was created by Kodak a while ago there are many different implementations of it.
The Cineon version in VFX software, I am looking at Nuke right now, have no problem grading to and from large exposure differences in 32bit float color.
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Re: Cineon Log clips dynamic range!

PostTue Oct 03, 2017 2:43 am

1) the original specification of cineon had been lost, Kodak never publish it. However there are reversed tables that can specify the mapping.
2) I'm not sure of what you're doing there: there are several implicit transformations going on. If you go from raw to any color space in 32 float, you will map out the range without truncate. Including cineon. (I don't see any reason why out should be different)
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Re: Cineon Log clips dynamic range!

PostTue Oct 03, 2017 2:46 am

Each Log curve is different but seems Log3G10 perfectly matches to Cineon/REDLog contrast response. Just slightly different offset. This is really smart and helpful for migration to new Log curve with minimal changes in workflow!

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Re: Cineon Log clips dynamic range!

PostTue Oct 03, 2017 2:48 am

finally red is matching a 1990 standard!!!! In 4-5 years they will be in 2015.

Just expose the sensor more than usual if you're into hdr: taste the camera 200/400 instead of 800.
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Re: Cineon Log clips dynamic range!

PostTue Oct 03, 2017 2:57 am

waltervolpatto wrote:finally red is matching a 1990 standard!!!! In 4-5 years they will be in 2015.


It s funny but that Cineon 1990 standard is looking way natural than most modern LOG curves when you adjust contrast. It just makes image nice without additional headache. So Log3G10 is designed as Cineon successor.

Cineon encodes out to around 13.5 in float, which is great, but not amazing. Log3G10 goes out to 184.32 which makes it much more useful in the modern world.
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Re: Cineon Log clips dynamic range!

PostTue Oct 03, 2017 2:57 am

I see, (v14), it look like resolve artificially clamp any mapped value above 1.

It might be because the accrual specification was not allow that is the first place, but it should not be allowed (to clamp)
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Re: Cineon Log clips dynamic range!

PostTue Oct 03, 2017 2:59 am

BTW 1D LUT REDLog3G10 to Amira709 generated in LUTCalc is still looks better than Resolve 14 gamma mapping node.
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Re: Cineon Log clips dynamic range!

PostTue Oct 03, 2017 3:02 am

Dmitry Shijan wrote:BTW 1D LUT REDLog3G10 to Amira709 generated in LUTCalc is still looks better than Resolve 14 gamma mapping node.

Lutcalc will clamp.

Look "better" does not mean "right" ;)
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Re: Cineon Log clips dynamic range!

PostTue Oct 03, 2017 3:10 am

Yep, it is subjective. If compare Amira709 LUT just adds some kind of complicated film-like contrast and makes final image look more sonorously. But anyway i think that new color space and gamma transform method in Resolve 14 for sure is the best improvement of all.
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Re: Cineon Log clips dynamic range!

PostTue Oct 03, 2017 6:34 pm

waltervolpatto wrote:finally red is matching a 1990 standard!!!! In 4-5 years they will be in 2015.

Just expose the sensor more than usual if you're into hdr: taste the camera 200/400 instead of 800.

To be fair, Red has always used a cineon like standard for their RedLogFilm curve. It made using RED in VFX workflows significantly more simple than everything else.
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Re: Cineon Log clips dynamic range!

PostThu Nov 09, 2017 1:12 pm

waltervolpatto wrote:1) the original specification of cineon had been lost, Kodak never publish it. However there are reversed tables that can specify the mapping.


Walter, I am not sure but isn't this the original specification?
http://www.cineon.com/ff_draft.php
http://www.digital-intermediate.co.uk/f ... Cineon.pdf
http://www.dotcsw.com/doc/cineon1.pdf
http://www.fileformat.info/format/dpx/egff.htm
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Re: Cineon Log clips dynamic range!

PostThu Nov 09, 2017 2:39 pm

Robert Niessner wrote:
waltervolpatto wrote:1) the original specification of cineon had been lost, Kodak never publish it. However there are reversed tables that can specify the mapping.


Walter, I am not sure but isn't this the original specification?
http://www.cineon.com/ff_draft.php
http://www.digital-intermediate.co.uk/f ... Cineon.pdf
http://www.dotcsw.com/doc/cineon1.pdf
http://www.fileformat.info/format/dpx/egff.htm


Yes it is, however that is not a "Kodak white paper" that is the work done to allow every one else to use the cineon files
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Re: Cineon Log clips dynamic range!

PostSun Nov 12, 2017 11:32 am

I see, thanks Walter.
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Re: Cineon Log clips dynamic range!

PostFri Dec 22, 2017 7:01 pm

Dmitry, those results are AMAZING! Sorry to ask, but is there any way you could post a step-by-step instruction for how you get there? I looked at the other links you listed, but i still can't totally track your steps.

Or maybe a YouTube video of how you do your magic? Obviously, no worries if that's too much, but I'd love to learn from the Master ;)
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Re: Cineon Log clips dynamic range!

PostSun Dec 24, 2017 4:37 am

Current basic workflow which is still under development:
Set project settings to V-gamut/RED Log3G10
- Adjust WB in RAW tab
- Cross Hatching Pattern Fix Node (X/Y 0.5px)
- Temporary Noise Reduction Node (if available)
- Chroma Noise Reduction Node (if available)
- Boost Expose with Lower Gain Node (if needed)
- Secondary WB Node
- ColorChecker correction Node
- Highlights Node (if needed)
- Contrast/Pivot Node
- Color Space Transform Node (Timeline to Rec709)
- Film emulation LUT Node
- Sharpen Node (if available and if needed to recover fine details smoothed by OLPF filter)

And some tips copy/pasted info from other threads:

In Micro and Pocket cameras RAW colors are very different from ProRes colors. There are two different implementations of RAW input colors in Resolve:
1. To get corrected colors from RAW you need to set project settings to YRGB and bypass input color space transform in project settings. It helps to get 100% exact same colors from RAW as from ProRes. But it also can make things worse in some situations.
2. To get original sensor data without additional factory color correction you need to set project settings to YRGB Color Managed. This will implement RAW data as is, without any additional correction. This needs manual ColorChecker correction to get reach saturated colors.

First i have odd results with ColorChecker but later i figure how to use it. It works better when timeline set to wide gamut color spaces and Log gamma curve. You should also setup preferences in Resolve Color Match tab according timeline preferences. As for me Panasonic V-gamut or Sony S-Log works best as wide gamut color spaces. And RED Log3G10 is great Log gamma curve to work.
Overall i suggest always work in wide gamut with log curve and add Color Space Transform Node with Gamma and Saturation mapping turned ON in the end of the chain to convert to Rec709 color space for export and monitoring.

Actually you can just create few reference ColorChecker shots in uniform daylight conditions and use them to correct and fix dimmed RAW colors in all footage. This gives you clear starting point for color correction and will match RAW colors very close to ProRes.

I came to the conclusion that BMDfilm log and color space is not a best setting for timeline. It works great for boosting Expose and lowering Gain but just very strange and unnatural when you adjust contrast. Arri LogC is always feels very low contrast. Cineon LOG (middle contrast Pivot 0.52) is limited in some situations. So i moved to RED Log3G10 (middle contrast Pivot 0.38) which have same contrast response as Cineon.
As a color Gamut i use Panasonic V-Gamut because it is the only usable color gamut to work with ColorChecker correction tool in Resolve.

RED Wide Gamut shifts colors to purple reds when use ColorChecker correction tool (probably bug)
ACES Gamut works very well ColorChecker correction tool but shifts colors to warm because D60 white point.
Rec2020 is more like delivery color gamut and if you use as Timeline color space it adds Rec2020 metadata to exported file even if final Color Space Transform Node set to Rec709. This produce oversaturation in some video players which can read that metadata.

To compress LOG to Rec you can use Color Space Transform node in Resolve with Gamma mapping turned ON.
Or you can generate custom 1DLUT in LUTCalc https://cameramanben.github.io/LUTCalc/ ... index.html
As Out Gamma i use Amira709 because for my subjective opinion it it gives best result. (You can also try Alexa-X-2 and LC709/A made by Sony as well)
For color gamut transformation i use Color Space Transform node in Resolve. In Resolve 14 beta they add New Saturation mapping to Color Space Transform node. This is great feature that finally helps to remove hard saturation clipping in extreme values.

Set input to BMDfilmBMDfilm, set timeline for example to V-Gamut with RED Log3G10.
Apply Cineon to Amira709 1DLUT, next apply color space transform LUT.
So i do all my grade in log gamma and in wide color space BEFORE transformation luts, but see final result in realtime in Rec709.
AFTER transformation LUT you can apply regular film emulation LUT and add luma sharpen. As a film emulation LUTs i use free GMIC Film Emulation collection converted from original HaldCLUT to .cube format to use in Resolve.

Boosting Expose for RAW is 100% same as boosting Gain for ProRes in Linear Gamma.
Lowering Gain must be done in LOG gamma. Each LOG gamma have different contrast response, BMDfilm and RED Log3G10 works best for this adjustment in my opinion.

To adjust Exposure in ProRes footage same as in RAW add two Color Space Transform nodes, and one more node in the middle.
Set first node input gamma Timeline Gamma in , Linear out
Set another node input gamma Linear in , Timeline Gamma out.
Adjust Gain in the middle node. This produce exact result as Exposure slider in RAW controls.

Boosting exposure and lowering gain is similar to boosting shadows but works in more natural and physically correct way.
Boosting shadows/highlights in Secondaries tab don't designed for so large and uniform adjustments.
Boosting shadows/highlights slider in RAW tab works same as Adobe Camera RAW or many other RAW processing apps. It adds destructive luma masks and ruins your footage source. So be aware of use it.

About 3 additional stops recovered from shadows is the real clean limit for BMMCC camera. Dig deeper and Fixed Pattern Noise became too visible over moving image.
Feel free to underexpose. But you are forced to use temporary noise reduction mixed with Chroma noise reduction, adding 0.5 XY shift to remove Cross Hatching and using OLPF+IR filter to eliminate wired moire/aliasing in RAW. Also use RAW+ColorChecker correction to get neutral starting point without shifted and desaturated colors. This will allow pixel perfect quality from BMMCC camera without downsampling.

And some screenshots directly from Davinci Resolve viewer:
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Re: Cineon Log clips dynamic range!

PostSun Dec 24, 2017 5:02 pm

Wow, thank you!! That's an awesome Christmas present!

Thanks so much!!
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Re: Cineon Log clips dynamic range!

PostSun Jun 03, 2018 3:53 pm

Here is also some extreme deep into the shadows tests with BMMCC. Timelne set to BMDfilm Log. Same workflow as described earlier. This s a 500W halogen lamp in almost dark room. ND64 filter on the camera. You can do the same Expose boost with ProRes by adding Gain node or even two Gain nodes in linear space. It is sad but FPN is the main limit in this camera and i still can't find a correct way to remove it even with manually created FPN sample patterns in the dark.
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And one more Expose boost attempt. This is BMPCC RAW sample from camera review article. Timeline set to BMDfilm Log. Expose 6 created by setting ISO to 1600 + Expose 5. Also applied my own Color Checker correction node from BMMCC.

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Re: Cineon Log clips dynamic range!

PostSun Jun 03, 2018 10:54 pm

Dmitry Shijan wrote:Here is also some extreme deep into the shadows tests with BMMCC. Timeline set to BMDfilm Log. Same workflow as described earlier. This s a 500W halogen lamp in almost dark room. ND64 filter on the camera. You can do the same Expose boost with ProRes by adding Gain node or even two Gain nodes in linear space. It is sad but FPN is the main limit in this camera and i still can't find a correct way to remove it even with manually created FPN sample patterns in the dark.

I agree that if the BMD cameras are underexposed, you can run into sensor noise and FPN issues. (I think it's a miracle the cameras are this good for under $8000.) We solved that problem on a recent job by coming up with several different levels of Neat Video processing, but it took us more than 24 hours (at 2fps) to take care of a 90-minute film. I think it was worth it and the final results look surprisingly clean, compared to what we had to work with.

I think the cure for this is: don't underexpose the cameras. Rate them a little lower than what the printed specs say, overexpose at least 1/2 stop (if not a little more), protect the highlights, and use more fill light.
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Re: Cineon Log clips dynamic range!

PostMon Jun 04, 2018 12:55 am

Dmitry Shijan wrote:I came to the conclusion that BMDfilm log and color space is not a best setting for timeline.

Not to rock the boat (too much) but why ever use a timeline log format if large adjustments, especially in the blacks and shadows, need to be made? And worse, dealing with noise cluttering right above (and sometimes below!) the impossible zero point? Why not instead use a gamma closer to the target gamma?

With the exception of using ACES, but only for properly exposed material, I find using log in the timeline with the Resolve controls far from ideal.

Dmitry Shijan wrote:To adjust Exposure in ProRes footage same as in RAW add two Color Space Transform nodes, and one more node in the middle.
Set first node input gamma Timeline Gamma in , Linear out
Set another node input gamma Linear in , Timeline Gamma out.
Adjust Gain in the middle node. This produce exact result as Exposure slider in RAW controls.

In Resolve 15 this can now be done in a single node!
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Re: Cineon Log clips dynamic range!

PostMon Jun 04, 2018 6:28 am

Cary Knoop wrote:Not to rock the boat (too much) but why ever use a timeline log format if large adjustments, especially in the blacks and shadows, need to be made? And worse, dealing with noise cluttering right above (and sometimes below!) the impossible zero point? Why not instead use a gamma closer to the target gamma?

I think these are all good questions. The wrong gamma settings can tend to increase noise, especially if you're crushing things down in one place and then amplifying them in another (depending on where and how it's done). For a lot of reasons, I tend to avoid timeline color space changes, but I do use the camera manufacturer's color science when I can to get it into reasonable film-like Log space. Something like Log-C is relatively easy to work with these days.
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Re: Cineon Log clips dynamic range!

PostThu Aug 15, 2019 2:58 am

Dmitry, something that belongs here. So, sorry for resurrecting the thread. Could you post a good dynamic range chart test showing the latitude from your methods?

Thanks.
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Re: Cineon Log clips dynamic range!

PostThu Aug 15, 2019 3:11 am

I don't have that kind of chart to measure things.
Actually i had few attempts to make DIY 15 stops chart with tiny stacked ND filters, but parts are still not assembled and lays on my shelf. Also it seems 15 stops may be not enough to measure extreme noisy recovered stops. And currently i have no more additional ND filters sheets to cut and add.
For me it is just enough to know that i always have 2-3 stops of extra dynamic range with BMMCC/BMPCC.

FPN fix is something that is still impossible to do in Resolve. When you fix FPN in darkest areas, FPN mask became visible in lighter areas. When you fix it in lighter areas, it became visible in darker areas. There is no clean middle point for it.
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Re: Cineon Log clips dynamic range!

PostThu Aug 15, 2019 4:45 pm

Hmm. You have pocket 4k or mini 4.6k, and get real measurable extra 2-3 stops on your waveform (including noisy stops, and not including them)? That would be a substantial indication.

Fix pattern noise (you mean column noise and such forth?) is an issue, as temporal noise removal won't do much, but will clean other noise. Actually, we had this issue with little hybrid video cameras pushing it too much. By backing off on the charge (gain I think in those days) it went down/away. If something similar is possible with the 4.6k then more usable tiles of latitude would be available in normal light, where you want them, after the temporal noise is cleaned up. Hey, that's a perfect BM firmware update project, as a menu option, for them to look at.
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Re: Cineon Log clips dynamic range!

PostThu Aug 15, 2019 8:56 pm

I don't have Pocket4K or Ursa 4,6K cameras to test. As described earlier, i done all my tests with Micro Cinema Camera (BMMCC). There are also some BMPCC RAW samples where taken from camera review article.
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Re: Cineon Log clips dynamic range!

PostFri Aug 16, 2019 9:50 am

OK. Because I am eager to see how many stops one can get on the Pocket 6k doing this. Pocket 4k might be 14+ stops practical, but if 6k can get 15+stops, that's significant (though 16+ would maybe allow for a cleaner 14-15 stop range).

Re-edit: Sorry, wrong thread, but still relevant.
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Re: Cineon Log clips dynamic range!

PostFri Aug 16, 2019 2:25 pm

Not sure if I understand the point of all the methods proposed here.

I would suggest using the color transform that was designed for the camera you use. Use your favorite timeline gamma either Rec709 or Log-based but I would not use Cineon.

All those hoops you are going through only will complicate getting accurate colors and none of those hoops will give any more dynamic range.

Apply the KISS principle.
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Re: Cineon Log clips dynamic range!

PostFri Aug 16, 2019 3:11 pm

Yet he does, and you have no proof, but come in here and say stuff. Give it a try.
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Re: Cineon Log clips dynamic range!

PostFri Aug 16, 2019 11:44 pm

Cary Knoop wrote:Not sure if I understand the point of all the methods proposed here.

I would suggest using the color transform that was designed for the camera you use. Use your favorite timeline gamma either Rec709 or Log-based but I would not use Cineon.

All those hoops you are going through only will complicate getting accurate colors and none of those hoops will give any more dynamic range.

Apply the KISS principle.


The point of all the methods is extend dynamic range in scientifically correct way. You can do all the same things in native BMD gamut/BMDfilmlog gamma if you want. I use RED Wide Gamut/LOG3G10 because it just better designed color space and more universal.

Here is one new tip - to get extremely clean image apply Noise Reduction node BEFORE Expose adjustment (Gain in linear gamma node).

I'll post updated and improved step by step FAQ for Resolve 16 later.

Tests in this forum thread are usually where very extreme for real life. So here are quick screens to see this "HDR" workflow in more real life situation. This product image was shoot on BMMCC with mosaic OLPF. Timeline set to YRGB non color managed, REDWide Gamut/RED LOG3G10.
Input CST node transforms BMDgamma/gamut to Timeline gamma/gamut.
Custom made Log to Rec LUTs from this thread viewtopic.php?f=2&t=82441#p494973 Link to LUTs download: https://www.dropbox.com/s/6w49e6bbc1u67 ... s.zip?dl=0

Original shoot at ISO 800 (underexposed to protect extreme highlights reflections. Probably it was too underexposed, but i don't care because i can fix it in post):
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Expose in Resolve (Gain adjusted in node set to linear gamma):
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Temporal NR node and Spatial Chroma NR (settings varies a lot of resolution and Timeline Log gamma):
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As a final touch add additional manual grading and contrast. Or add film emulation LUT, like something from this huge free pack viewtopic.php?f=21&t=77553&hilit=gmic
Add sharpness depending of still/video output and existence of OLPF. And image will look like this. Scientifically "correct" but human friendly grading process allows to take most attention to subject of photography. Sort of grading without actual grading. Its almost like old days when you shoot film photography and don't care about color wheels or color grading. Only think about what things actually to shoot, film stock do all rest for you and even forgives expose mistakes.

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Re: Cineon Log clips dynamic range!

PostSat Aug 17, 2019 10:22 am

:arrow: Here is my step by step workflow FAQ updated on 13.11.2019 to match newer DaVinci Resolve 16.1 color management guidelines.
Before start it is highly recommended to read Final Explanation of Gamma and Color Shift Problems article here: viewtopic.php?f=21&t=101253

Assume you use standard gamut sRGB color space monitor.
If you use wide gamut monitor, switch it to sRGB emulation mode or use output CST Node to upscale Rec.709 color space to your wide gamut display color space during preview. You can also use similar custom made monitoring LUTs that will upscale Rec.709 color space to your wide gamut display color space during preview.

Preferences->System->General (for macOS only):
- Uncheck “Use Mac Display Color Profiles for Viewers”

Project settings:
- Color science: Davinci YRGB
- Timeline Color Space: REC.709(Scene) (this is required to provide proper metadata tags in rendered files which helps to avoid gamma shift problems during transcoding to other formats. It is explained in details here viewtopic.php?f=21&t=101253 )

Camera RAW Clip settings:
- Set native camera ISO.
- Do NOT adjust Expose in RAW tab.
- Adjust Sharpness, or reset to default.
- Adjust WB as you like.
- Turn ON Highlights Recovery (optional)
- If you use BRAW, reset all extra settings and "looks"

Clip Nodes:
- Input Color Space Transform node (BMDFilm Color Space/Gamma to REDWideGamutRGB/RED Log3G10 Color Space/Gamma). Luminance and Saturation Mapping should be turned OFF. If you use DNG source you may use different generations of Color Science workflows for your taste.

Example of Color Science Gen 1 setup for BMCC/BMPCC/BMMCC:
Camera RAW tab:
* Color Science: Gen 1
* Color Space: Blackmagic Design
* Gamma: Blackmagic Design Film

Clip Input Color Space Transform node (Luminance and Saturation Mapping turned OFF):
* Input Color Space: Blackmagic Design Gen 1
* Input Gamma: Blackmagic Design Film
* Output Color Space: REDWideGamutRGB
* Output Gamma: RED Log3G10

Example of Color Science Gen 4 setup for BMCC/BMPCC/BMMCC:
Camera RAW tab:
Color Science: Gen 4
Color Space: Blackmagic Design
Gamma: Blackmagic Design Film

Clip Input Color Space Transform node (Luminance and Saturation Mapping turned OFF):
* Input Color Space: Blackmagic Design Wide Gamut Gen 4
* Input Gamma: Blackmagic Design Film
* Output Color Space: REDWideGamutRGB
* Output Gamma: RED Log3G10


- Cross Hatching Pattern Fix Node Pan/Tilt 0.5px
- Cross Hatching Pattern Fix Node Pan/Tilt -0.5px
This is required for DNG and ProRes, only for cameras based on Fairchild Imaging sensors. Depending of Project Image Scaling settings and Super Scale Clip Attributes settings may produce pixel line edge artifacts in DaVinci Resolve 15 and 16. See this thread for details: viewtopic.php?f=21&t=75290

- You may also turn on Super Scale 2x in Clip Attributes to add extra noise reduction and effectively sharpen details, but this may slow down performance a lot.

- Temporal NR Node (settings varies depending of resolution and working LOG gamma)
- Spatial NR Chroma Only Node (settings varies depending of resolution and working LOG gamma)

- Optional ColorChecker correction Node (Set Color Match Source/Target Gamma and Target Color Space to REDWideGamutRGB/RED Log3G10)

- Color Space Transform node RED Log3G10 to Linear Gamma (Luminance and Saturation Mapping turned OFF):
* Input Color Space: REDWideGamutRGB
* Input Gamma: RED Log3G10
* Output Color Space: REDWideGamutRGB
* Output Gamma: Linear

- Gain in Linear Gamma (aka Expose) Node to recover dynamic range from shadows.

- Color Space Transform node Linear Gamma to RED Log3G10 (Luminance and Saturation Mapping turned OFF):
* Input Color Space: REDWideGamutRGB
* Input Gamma: Linear
* Output Color Space: REDWideGamutRGB
* Output Gamma: RED Log3G10
Gain in linear gamma corresponds to Expose F-Stops in RAW tab like this:
linear gain 2 = expose 1
linear gain 4 = expose 2
linear gain 8 = expose 3
linear gain 16 = expose 4
and so on...


- Gain Node (lower Gain to bring clipped data back)

- Secondary optional WB Node (for more precise WB adjustment)

- Highlights Node (sometimes may need to recover some additional tiny amount of extremely bright light sources)

- Contrast/Pivot Node (for RED Log3G10 use pivot middle point 0.38)

Timeline Nodes:
- Gamma and Color Space transform LUTs based on ARRI gamma compression science and RED IPP2 color compression science (More details here viewtopic.php?f=2&t=82441#p494793 Download LUTs pack here https://www.dropbox.com/s/6w49e6bbc1u67 ... Y_LUTs.zip ) alternatively you can use Color Space Transform Node (REDWideGamutRGB to Rec.709, Luminance and Saturation Mapping turned ON)

- Film emulation LUT Node (For example use G'MIC LUTs from this pack viewtopic.php?f=21&t=77553#p569634 or any other you like)

- Sharpen Node to recover fine details smoothed by OLPF filter.

Export final Result to ProRes HQ or to Avid DNxHD and use HandBrake app to convert to H.264 for final delivery.

Image
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Image
Image
Last edited by Dmitry Shijan on Wed Nov 20, 2019 12:56 am, edited 17 times in total.
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Re: Cineon Log clips dynamic range!

PostWed Aug 21, 2019 3:54 pm

While I like and appreciate the method, If I have to go to all that trouble of scaling/denoise just to get an usable image out of a vanessa, then something is wrong.
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Re: Cineon Log clips dynamic range!

PostThu Aug 22, 2019 12:03 am

It's relevant. There is a colorist here who can tell how it took "several weeks" to grade the Empire strikes back, so this is easy to upgrade your image. But still, BM should include such a feature to do this in one hit in resolve with a few options. Something we could petition BM on?
Last edited by Wayne Steven on Thu Aug 22, 2019 1:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Cineon Log clips dynamic range!

PostThu Aug 22, 2019 12:38 am

Wayne Steven wrote:It's relevant. There is a colorist here who can tell his it took 18 months to grade the Empire strikes back, so this is easy to upgrade your image.

Actually, Natasha Leonnet did Empire Strikes Back in late 2003 at ILM in C Building in San Rafael, and it took about 7 weeks (but some of those were 12-hour days). That was on the two in-house Pandora Pogle Platinums owned by Lucasfilm. It took Rich Garibaldi and I about 7 weeks to do Star Wars and also Jedi in the same room over a 3-month period, and we definitely had some 100-hour weeks. In 40 years, I have never heard of a movie taking 18 months to grade.

The longest color grade I've ever heard of was the 6 months on The Thin Red Line over at the now-defunct Universal HD Center, which was done three separate times and supervised by Terrance Malick and John Toll. They simply had a hard time making a decision. Ultimately, they wound up using the original version done in the first two months.

My longest session was Dances with Wolves, which took almost four months... but only because it was a hard film. But 18 months? Naw. Doesn't happen. 6 months is extremely unusual.
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Re: Cineon Log clips dynamic range!

PostThu Aug 22, 2019 12:52 am

My appologies Marc, I wasn't saying you did it yourself (the "his" was an auto correction typo for "how" somehiw (hmm) sorry). But what were you talking about this 18 month thing (which I thought was an impressively long long long time, for you film colorists. How long can one spend grading white snow :) )?
Last edited by Wayne Steven on Sun Sep 01, 2019 5:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Cineon Log clips dynamic range!

PostThu Aug 22, 2019 12:58 pm

waltervolpatto wrote:While I like and appreciate the method, If I have to go to all that trouble of scaling/denoise just to get an usable image out of a vanessa, then something is wrong.

It is not so complicated as it may look. Once you setup all nodes, it takes only few clicks to adjust each clip and render it.
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Re: Cineon Log clips dynamic range!

PostSun Sep 01, 2019 4:17 am

Dmitry Shijan wrote:Camera RAW Clip settings:
- Set native camera ISO.
- Adjust Sharpness, or reset to default.
- Adjust WB as you like.
- Turn ON Highlights Recovery (optional)
- Do NOT adjust Expose in RAW tab.
- If you use BRAW, reset all extra settings and "looks"


Do I leave the color space and gamma in the raw tab as BMD film / gamma BMD film for non-Braw? Assuming so
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Re: Cineon Log clips dynamic range!

PostSun Sep 01, 2019 4:44 am

Seems this is a part of workflow that needs further description. If you use DNG source you may use different versions of Color Science workflows for your taste.

Example of Color Science Gen 1 setup for BMCC/BMPCC/BMMCC:
Camera RAW tab:
- Color Science: Gen 1
- Color Space: Blackmagic Design Gen 1
- Gamma: Blackmagic Design Film

Clip Input Color Space Transform node:
- Input Color Space: Blackmagic Design Gen 1
- Input Gamma: Blackmagic Design Film
- Output Color Space: Timeline
- Output Gamma: Timeline


Example of Color Science Gen4 setup for BMCC/BMPCC/BMMCC:
Camera RAW tab:
- Color Science: Gen 4
- Color Space: Blackmagic Design Wide Gamut Gen 4
- Gamma: Blackmagic Design Film

Clip Input Color Space Transform node:
- Input Color Space: Blackmagic Design Wide Gamut Gen 4
- Input Gamma: Blackmagic Design Film
- Output Color Space: Timeline
- Output Gamma: Timeline
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Re: Cineon Log clips dynamic range!

PostSun Sep 01, 2019 6:03 am

Thanks, Dmitry!


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Re: Cineon Log clips dynamic range!

PostMon Sep 02, 2019 6:59 am

Dmitry Shijan wrote:
Timeline Nodes:
- Color Space Transform Node (Timeline to Rec709, Liminance and Saturation mapping turned ON) or custom made Gamma and Gamut transform LUTs (More details here viewtopic.php?f=2&t=82441#p494793 Download LUTs here https://www.dropbox.com/s/6w49e6bbc1u67 ... Y_LUTs.zip )


is this color space and gamma to rec 709 or color space only?
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Re: Cineon Log clips dynamic range!

PostMon Sep 02, 2019 7:24 am

Those are LUTS for separate gamma and for separate Color Space. They should be applied together. First add node and apply LUT for gamma 1D_REDLog3G10-to-Amira709. Next add another node and apply [COLOR ONLY] RWG_Log3G10 to REC709 LUT.

You can also use original RED IPP2 LUTs, they produce slightly different "brighter" gamma look. https://www.red.com/download/ipp2-output-presets

You can also just use CST node (RED Wide Gamut/REDLog3g10 to rec 709) with Luminance snd Saturation Mapping turned on. It may provide more saturated colors.

You can also use CST node for gamma only conversion and next compress color space with provided LUT...

Experiment. Compare. Mix...
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Re: Cineon Log clips dynamic range!

PostMon Sep 02, 2019 7:27 am

Thanks but was actually talking about the CST node. Is that to rec 709 color space and gamma? Or just the color space?


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Re: Cineon Log clips dynamic range!

PostMon Sep 02, 2019 7:32 am

In the end you need to convert both Gamma and Color Space to Rec709.
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Re: Cineon Log clips dynamic range!

PostMon Sep 02, 2019 11:39 am

Has anybody tried Demitry's technique on a back lit dynamic range test?
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Re: Cineon Log clips dynamic range!

PostTue Sep 03, 2019 2:33 am

Dmitry Shijan wrote:- Film emulation LUT Node (For example free GMIC LUTs from this pack works great viewtopic.php?f=21&t=77553&hilit=gmic )


What is the point of the film emulation LUT? Is this part optional for this workflow? Sorry to be annoying but I tried to download all of those links to .png's and tried to convert to .CUBE's using the IWLTBAP converter but kept getting the error "Your JPG/PNG must have exact same size as the original one (125x125px or 512x512px)"

Also does a film emulation LUT help me to see what I'm working with in resolve vs the result I get on output? At the moment I am using a node (desat down by 50%) I created by eye-matching to my online edit in FCP. I leave this node turned on in resolve whilst I'm grading and then disable it when I go to export so it matches to the output...
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Re: Cineon Log clips dynamic range!

PostTue Sep 03, 2019 4:46 am

Film emulation LUT is optional but it makes image from digital sensor look less boring. It adds color imperfection, contrast and overall character copied from specific real life film stock emulsion. In most cases it is impossible to achieve same complicated look with manual grading tools.

Just use LUTs already converted to .cube by Fernando Sousa from this post viewtopic.php?f=21&t=77553&hilit=gmic Have no idea why you can't convert pngs from other source.

Not sure if i understand your question about FCP, but it seems it is out of this workflow topic. FCPX viewer outputs color managed image, Resolve viewer outputs non color managed image, so things usually looks slightly darker in Resolve. To match both you need to create somehow special monitoring LUT (Rec709 to Monitor profile), use this LUT only during editing in Resolve and disable that LUT during render in Resolve.
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Re: Cineon Log clips dynamic range!

PostTue Sep 03, 2019 7:03 am

Thanks! those film emulation luts are great.

I use a Mac so in resolve preferences I have checked “use Mac profile for displays”. So are you saying I should create a LUT from rec.709 to my calibrated monitor profile as well? And this way I will be able to see the same as what resolve it outputting?


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Re: Cineon Log clips dynamic range!

PostTue Sep 03, 2019 7:12 am

If you use workflow described in this thread, always Uncheck “use Mac profile for displays”.

“use Mac profile for displays” attempts to match colors to OSX color management output (converts Resolve viewer output to Monitor profile) but it works ONLY if you set Timeline or Output to Rec709 in Resolve Color Management Project Settings.
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Re: Cineon Log clips dynamic range!

PostTue Sep 03, 2019 4:13 pm

I was inspired by Cinema5D P4k/P6K tests https://www.cinema5d.com/blackmagic-poc ... tter-more/ and take attempt to exam BMMCC in near similar conditions. DNGs processed with workflow described earlier in this thread. Noise reduction was applied before expose boost. My background is simple black fabric, so it is darker and so more extreme test than Cinema5D examples, you can compare things by Color Checker patches.
Let's be honest, even P6K can't provide usable underexposed 5 stops. It looks too noisy and became plastic mess if you add SNR. So we see here is 5 years old native HD camera with Fairchild Imaging dual gain sensor fights against gigantic 6K/4K modern Sony sensors in downscaled to HD mode. I must admit again that 3 stops under expose is pretty usable with BMMCC. If only we can fight FPN it could be extended even further...
P.S. I only can imagine what newer Fairchild Imaging dual gain sensor is capable of. Along to 4K it technically waaaay less noisier (Dark Current: 2 e-/sec compare to BMMCC sensor: 25 e-/sec, Ursa 4.6K sensor: 15 e-/sec) (Read Noise 1.0 e- RMS. BMMCC sensor: 1.2 e- RMS, Ursa 4.6K sensor: 1.5 e- RMS)
It is better to see images at full size in new tab:

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Image

And same examples, but with noise reduction and fIlm emulation LUT:

Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
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Re: Cineon Log clips dynamic range!

PostWed Sep 04, 2019 3:40 pm

Here is also BMMCC overexpose test.
Technically digital sensors don't have such a thing as overexposure and there is nothing to test there because sensors itself don't have any highlights rolloff. They capture light in linear gamma and hard clipped in one single point. Next that linear data converted to LOG gamma specially designed for each sensor model. And next Color Science converts Log to normal gamma and shapes final image look. So mostly overexpose look is a part of software, but not a part of a sensor hardware itself
I use different lighting direction in this test to provide extreme bright light, so these images don't exact match to previous tests. As before i use REDLog3G10/REDWideGamutRGB as timeline gamma. Other gammas and other Log to Rec conversion methods may provide different look of highlight rolloff clipping.

Image
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Image
Image

And the same with Highlights Recovery turned OFF:

Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
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Re: Cineon Log clips dynamic range!

PostThu Sep 05, 2019 3:59 am

But the different clipping times from the color filter primaries produce a nonlinearity in demosaicing, which highlight can exploit.

By the way Demitry, thanks for the highlight recovery demo. You are somebody that leads around here, rather than just bag what they don't accept to understand. Really appreciated.


I got advice I'm the other thread, and wouldn't mind exploring demosaicing, to a likely better than the competitor. I'm pretty sure it's a lot to do with demosaicing over sensor technology. In contrast, I'm sick of Red color, it just seems thin to me. Braw has a long way to go I think. We really need a processing system as I described over there, to maximise look and normalise it to a delivery look. Grading should he minimal once you decide your look.
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