Cineon Log clips dynamic range!

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waltervolpatto

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Re: Cineon Log clips dynamic range!

PostThu Sep 05, 2019 8:47 pm

IIRC, the red color "clip" on the sensor one step above green and the blue almost three stop above. try to have a primary green object clipping, it will be more difficult to recover.

regardless, if the actually physical info is in the raw file, you can bring it back to life, if it is gone (sensor overloading), it is gone for good.
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Wayne Steven

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Re: Cineon Log clips dynamic range!

PostFri Sep 06, 2019 7:54 am

This is the sort of thing I'm seeing in the 6k test results.


Just occurred to me, you could use similar effects in film and shape color detail into it. Maybe using a monochrome mapping and color image mapping. Digitally that's easier, but maybe it can be done that way in the lab analogue fashion.
aIf you are not truthfully progressive, maybe you shouldn't say anything
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Re: Cineon Log clips dynamic range!

PostSun Sep 08, 2019 1:51 pm

Here is also little tip how to use TIFF image exported from Resolve in graphic editors without gamma shifts:
- Render TIFF image from Resolve
- Open image in graphic editor
- Assign input profile "Rec.709 Gamma 2.4" to the image (first you may need to download ICC profile here https://www.dropbox.com/s/8cav8apirvn4f ... ma_2.4.zip and install it to your system)
- Convert image to sRGB profile on export from graphic editor
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Re: Cineon Log clips dynamic range!

PostThu Sep 26, 2019 3:11 am

Dmitry Shijan wrote:In the end you need to convert both Gamma and Color Space to Rec709.


Hey Dmitry, just a further question about this..
I just noticed that when selecting output Gamma to Rec.709 and then comparing gammas 2.2 and 2.4 (in the same list) they are both quite different to gamma Rec.709, which from my understanding is usually 2.2 or 2.4, BT.1886, etc... so shouldn't one of them match and be the same as selecting Rec.709?

Sorry if this is a really basic question but never noticed this when doing other transforms / conversions.

Many thanks again for all your help!
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Re: Cineon Log clips dynamic range!

PostThu Sep 26, 2019 5:04 am

Encoding gamma for rec709 is not pure 2.4 gamma but piecewise function with linear segment. Gamma 2.4 is display gamma, used for calibrating rec709 displays. Data encoding =/= display. Using gamma correction of pure 2.4 gamma for encoding means you will produce end to end gamma of 1.0, which is too low for specified viewing environment. It is not a visible problem when people grade by eye because they increase contrast to compensate manually.
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Dmitry Shijan

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Re: Cineon Log clips dynamic range!

PostTue Oct 01, 2019 4:45 am

Yes, rec709 is not pure 2.4. Never like that mess with gammas. I might be wrong but as i remember output transform g2.4 works same as gamma Rec709 because g2.4 is sort of default Resolve viewer output. But for Rec709 footage input you need to select Rec709 gamma.

P.S. Also please note that this workflow assume that you use standard gamut monitor (sRGB or Rec709 Color Space). If you use wide gamut monitor, switch it to sRGB emulation mode.
For wide gamut monitors you may use custom made LUTs for monitoring, or different color managed workflows with “Use Mac Display Color Profiles for Viewers” switched on.
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Re: Cineon Log clips dynamic range!

PostWed Oct 02, 2019 7:50 am

The main problem is not the gamma setting itself, but how different video players see final mp4 file exported for delivery. It is always different even if you manually add proper h264 metadata tags to video file (colorprim=bt709:colormatrix=bt709:transfer=bt709)

On Mac video is system wide color managed, and all native apps (Safari, Preview and QuicktimeX player, FCP (probably)) will show same result. But they do it in it's own way and always brighten gamma a lot. There where a lot of discussions and research about this and it appears that Mac reads input gamma from video files in very strange way and nobody knows why they do it like this. Tonal shift problem on Mac also depends a lot of monitor ICC profile type.

Last versions of VLC are also color managed but it represents gamma in different way. VLC gamma output is more like Rec709 Output in Resolve CST.

Firefox browser is not color managed for video. It can not read metadata from video files and so outputs video in another different way.

Windows have no system color management for video, so users usually see video with another different look, that look it is closer to VLC.

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Robert Niessner

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Re: Cineon Log clips dynamic range!

PostFri Oct 04, 2019 11:17 am

waltervolpatto wrote:
Robert Niessner wrote:
waltervolpatto wrote:1) the original specification of cineon had been lost, Kodak never publish it. However there are reversed tables that can specify the mapping.


Walter, I am not sure but isn't this the original specification?
http://www.cineon.com/ff_draft.php
http://www.digital-intermediate.co.uk/f ... Cineon.pdf
http://www.dotcsw.com/doc/cineon1.pdf
http://www.fileformat.info/format/dpx/egff.htm


Yes it is, however that is not a "Kodak white paper" that is the work done to allow every one else to use the cineon files


Walter, just by chance I stumbled over this today:
https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/stamp/stamp ... er=7238748
from 1993 by Glenn Kennel and David Snider, Eastman Kodak
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Re: Cineon Log clips dynamic range!

PostFri Oct 04, 2019 5:05 pm

Nice!
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Re: Cineon Log clips dynamic range!

PostFri Oct 04, 2019 5:08 pm

+1
Some DCTL in perspective? :)
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Re: Cineon Log clips dynamic range!

PostFri Oct 18, 2019 2:54 am

Dmitry Shijan wrote:Camera RAW Clip settings:
- Set native camera ISO.

By native camera ISO do you mean the native ISO of the camera model (we also shot on BMMCC..). Most of my googling tells me BMMCC native is 800. Or do you mean the ISO we shot at? My raw tab has chosen 200 by default although 400, 800 & 1600 is available.

Dmitry Shijan wrote:- Optional ColorChecker correction Node (Set Color Match Source/Targret Gamma and Target Color Space same as your timeline)

We didn’t shoot a color checker palate. Is there a way to use the color match tab without one? Assuming no..

Dmitry Shijan wrote:- Gain in Linear Gamma Node (aka Expose) to recover dynamic range from shadows (Right click on the Node and set Gamma to Linear. Adjust Gain wheel). Gain in linear gamma corresponds to Expose F-Stops in RAW tab like this:
linear gain 2 = expose 1
linear gain 4 = expose 2
linear gain 8 = expose 3
linear gain 16 = expose 4
and so on...

do you mean 2.0, 4.0, 8.0, 16.0 or 1.02, 1.04, 1.08, 1.16 on the gain wheel?

Dmitry Shijan wrote:- Contrast/Pivot Node (for RED Log3G10 pivot middle point is 0.38)

Is this optional? Noticed in a screenshot you had the contrast at 1.1...

Dmitry Shijan wrote:To compress LOG to Rec you can use Color Space Transform node in Resolve with Gamma mapping turned ON.
Or you can generate custom 1DLUT in LUTCalc https://cameramanben.github.io/LUTCalc/ ... index.html
As Out Gamma i use Amira709 because for my subjective opinion it it gives best result. (You can also try Alexa-X-2 and LC709/A made by Sony as well)

Tried to match the Amira709 lut you made as a starting point so I can customise from there but my lut came out a lot darker than yours. Screenshot attached with the settings I used. What am I doing wrong?

Thanks again, Dmitry.

Blake
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Dmitry Shijan

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Re: Cineon Log clips dynamic range!

PostFri Oct 18, 2019 6:53 am

blaket,
Native camera ISO is 800 for BMCC/BMMCC/BMMCC/4.6K or ISO400 and 3200(i guess) for Pocket4k and Pocket6K cameras. To preserve visual appearance in Resolve you better set those ISOs in camera as well. Also always shoot native camera ISO if you want to manipulate Expose with ProRes footage same as you do it with RAW.

Color match tab needs ColorChecker chart.

Gain wheel 2.0, 4.0, 8.0, 16.0. Why don't experiment and compare by yourself instead asking this?

Contrast/Pivot is your final Contrast adjustment. All this workflow is based on balance between extending dynamic range vs adding contrast strength.

For custom made LUTS based on RED Log3G10 in LUTCalc you need to set both IN and OUT range to 100%. And also set LUT type to Davinci Resolve 12+. It seems this setting is depends somehow of log curve design. I came to this with side by side visual appearance tests and have no any other proofs of using range 100%-100% and LUT type Davinci Resolve 12+ for RED Log3G10based LUTs.
I do not recommend to use Arri color space transform it makes colors strange during color correction. Seems Arri color transform it very specific to Arri sensors. Arri log to rec curve works great for gamma transformation. RED IPP2 color space works better for colors compression.
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Re: Cineon Log clips dynamic range!

PostFri Oct 18, 2019 7:11 am

Thanks so much, Dmitry. Really appreciate it.

Dmitry Shijan wrote:Gain wheel 2.0, 4.0, 8.0, 16.0. Why don't experiment and compare by yourself instead asking this?


I did experiment with the black exposure quite a lot, for weeks actually with the whole workflow. Thats how I came up with that question. When going up to 16.0 it just seemed like a massive adjustment, so it made me question. I felt silly asking but I needed to clarify as in the past the smallest error on my end has cost me a lot of time to go back and fix it.


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Re: Cineon Log clips dynamic range!

PostFri Oct 18, 2019 7:17 am

I mean experiment like this:
- adjust Expose in RAW tab, let's say to 1 stop.
- grab still to gallery.
- reset Expose in RAW tab
- Switch to side by side viewer mode.
- adjust gain in linear gamma and based on side by side view see how it matches to same Expose value.

For my opinion side by side compare experiments is the main method to understand how things works in Resolve.
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Re: Cineon Log clips dynamic range!

PostSun Oct 20, 2019 8:56 pm

:arrow: Please note that this workflow is still in development, and still needs some bug fixes. I still have some problems with gamma shift during export and during conversion to mp4 with Handrarke. I try to figure how Color primaries, Matrix coefficients, Transfer characteristics metadata tags in video file affects those gamma shifts and how to setup things in more universal and user friendly color managed way.
This problem seems more complicated than i expect.
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Re: Cineon Log clips dynamic range!

PostTue Oct 22, 2019 11:11 am

Thanks Dmitry for letting us know.

I have been doing a lot of experimenting and screenshoting like you suggested for working with my footage (in my case shot at ISO 200 on bmmcc). Looks like the best solution in my case was to set the ISO in LutCalc to 200 for the Amira 709 lut and then work with ISO 800 in the raw tab and expose the footage as suggested by lifting the linear gain node. The other way I experimented was to leave the ISO at 800 In LutCalc and then work a bit backwards by taking the linear gain exposure node down to lower the exposure. Still got some good results E.g. amazing background exposure but not so much for skin tones in the foreground. So I think I will proceed to work with the ISO 200 corrected Amira Lut / ISO 800 raw tab. Dmitry, does this sound mathematically correct to you?

As for the the export issue I will export some of my footage tomorrow to see how if affects me (my destination is youtube).

Blake


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Re: Cineon Log clips dynamic range!

PostTue Oct 22, 2019 11:52 am

How did you set the ISO in LUTCalc to 200 for the Alexa/Amira input? I see that option only for if i choose LogC as input in LUTCalc. If you generate it like this you need to use LogC timeline gamma curve in Resolve instead of RED Log3G10. In theory that LUT with ISO correction may work.
Or did you use "Stop Correction" option in LUTCalc?

Did your BMMCC footage was shoot in ProRes with baked ISO200? My guess that all those ISO corrected LUTs are useless if your footage was shoot in RAW.
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Re: Cineon Log clips dynamic range!

PostTue Oct 22, 2019 3:05 pm

Does anybody have a proper dynamic range testing outfit, to test how well these techniques do, and where the dynamic range is being stretched? Without that, how do we know what's absolutely is happening.
aIf you are not truthfully progressive, maybe you shouldn't say anything
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Re: Cineon Log clips dynamic range!

PostTue Oct 22, 2019 10:06 pm

Dmitry Shijan wrote:How did you set the ISO in LUTCalc to 200 for the Alexa/Amira input? I see that option only for if i choose LogC as input in LUTCalc. If you generate it like this you need to use LogC timeline gamma curve in Resolve instead of RED Log3G10. In theory that LUT with ISO correction may work.
Or did you use "Stop Correction" option in LUTCalc?

Screenshots below. Yes Its the "stop correction" but its locked to change when altering "CineEI ISO". So I put in ISO 200 in "CineEI ISO" and it changes the "stop correction" to -2 on its own. Seems to work for me when choosing REDLog3G10. Also, I enter the camera used as RED Epic DRAGON. Is this correct?

Dmitry Shijan wrote:Did your BMMCC footage was shoot in ProRes with baked ISO200? My guess that all those ISO corrected LUTs are useless if your footage was shoot in RAW.
No, it was shot in RAW. Also, I noticed that my footage starting point looks a lot brighter/more exposed than your starting points do in general. The other thing that I noticed in the resolve raw tab is that when choosing "use camera metadata" (as compare experiment) it matched to choosing ISO 200 in the ISO list. I dont know a lot just yet about different ways of letting in more light in camera but makes me think my cinematographer (very experienced but usually shoots on Alexa) has done so using ISO 200? Or perhaps another way. But its confusing as I agree it shouldn't matter in RAW?
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Dmitry Shijan

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Re: Cineon Log clips dynamic range!

PostTue Oct 22, 2019 10:31 pm

Nice find. It seems i didn't notice those presets for RED earlier. I don't know what to say. In RAW your ISO adjustment is the same as Expose adjustment and same as Gain in linear gamma. So you can manually create any desired ISO look directly in Resolve. Those additional ISO presets are usually made for ProRes footage with baked ISO gamma.
If footage looks darker or brighter it means it was shoot like this. Check all project settings and nodes placement. Adjust Expose, Contrast & Pivot, Gamma. At least share your project here with single DNG frame.
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Re: Cineon Log clips dynamic range!

PostThu Oct 24, 2019 5:31 am

I think that workflow FAQ will be changed to match DaVinci Resolve 16.1 color management guidelines. By providing proper metadata tags in rendered files it will help to avoid gamma shifts during transcoding between different formats. See more details about this problem in separate forum thread here viewtopic.php?f=21&t=101253
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Re: Cineon Log clips dynamic range!

PostFri Oct 25, 2019 6:45 am

waltervolpatto wrote:
Dmitry Shijan wrote:BTW 1D LUT REDLog3G10 to Amira709 generated in LUTCalc is still looks better than Resolve 14 gamma mapping node.

Lutcalc will clamp.


Is there a way to unclamp a REDLog3G10 to Amira709 LUT? Or somewhere else I can create or buy one without clamping? I like the look of the Amira 3D Lut as my footage uses a lot of coloured gels and the Amira 3D seems to be the best one to keep the gel looking like gel. Any suggestions?
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Re: Cineon Log clips dynamic range!

PostSat Oct 26, 2019 2:35 am

I really can't understand what means clamp or unclamp.

There are two main options in LUTCalc.
1. LUT Type: Davinci Resolve 12+ auto (for REDLog 3G10 to Amra709 LUTCalc automatically set range to 100-100) In Resolve this LUT type looks very close to CST Node with Liminance Mapping turned on. It produce less contrast look, provides some extra space in highlights and shadows, so you have more freedom to apply additional film emulation LUT or manually boost contrast without highlights clipping.
2. LUT Type: General cube LUT (for REDLog 3G10 to Amra709 LUTCalc automatically set range to 109-100) This type provides more contrast look, and looks better if you don't apply additional contrast correction or film emulation LUTs after it.
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Re: Cineon Log clips dynamic range!

PostTue Oct 29, 2019 3:19 am

I think it was clamping because I was creating a 3D lut instead of 1D Amira 709. Is it incorrect to use the Amira 709 color mapping? The color mapping is obviously quite different to the CST node color mapping or the color only luts. Also, how did you create the color only luts?
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Re: Cineon Log clips dynamic range!

PostTue Oct 29, 2019 3:32 am

Amira 709 color mapping looks slightly strange, probably because it is very specific to Arri sensors color responce. Better use color only CST Node or more universal REDIPP2 Color Only LUT for color transform. Note that the difference is only visible when you start to color grade image, adjust contrast and so on...

Amira 709 gamma mapping looks outstanding. It provides some very unique feel of complicated film-like contrast response.

That's why i prefer to use separate Nodes For Color and Gamma transforms. Remember. First always should be Gamma transform, next is Color transform node. Combined in opposite direction they produce wrong result.
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Re: Cineon Log clips dynamic range!

PostTue Oct 29, 2019 4:07 am

How do you create a color only CST node? I cant seem to work it out
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Re: Cineon Log clips dynamic range!

PostTue Oct 29, 2019 4:24 am

blaket wrote:How do you create a color only CST node? I cant seem to work it out

Just set the same REDLOG3g10 in and out gamma in CST node, and so it will bypass gamma transform and will transform Color depending of selected in and out color settings fields.

You really need to learn some Resolve basics before jumping to advanced workflows like this.
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Re: Cineon Log clips dynamic range!

PostTue Oct 29, 2019 9:52 am

Thanks Dmitry.


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Re: Cineon Log clips dynamic range!

PostWed Oct 30, 2019 7:27 pm

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Re: Cineon Log clips dynamic range!

PostThu Oct 31, 2019 1:10 am

Thanks its working well for me just updated my workflow as per the video. Resolve viewer result is matching the previous workflow. Noticed you had the contrast pivot at .35 instead of .38 is this correct?
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Re: Cineon Log clips dynamic range!

PostThu Oct 31, 2019 10:15 am

Yes, it is 0.38. My mistake.

Here is another quick screen recording. It explains how to locale that Contrast Pivot center point for different Log to Rec output LUTs:

Last edited by Dmitry Shijan on Thu Oct 31, 2019 12:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Cineon Log clips dynamic range!

PostThu Oct 31, 2019 11:58 am

aIf you are not truthfully progressive, maybe you shouldn't say anything
bTruthful side topics in-line with or related to, the discussion accepted
cOften people deceive themselves so much they do not understand, even when the truth is explained to them
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Re: Cineon Log clips dynamic range!

PostSun Nov 10, 2019 3:55 am

Here is something which apparently works like I suggested:

https://www.cinema5d.com/filmic-logv2-f ... ew-iphone/

It just digs the lower level stops up.

The stops dissapear extremely quickly though. I know it's 8 bit ( :( ) but I think there maybe something else going on there as the dark stops seem to just dissapear.

I've got some graded filter glass coming so I can work out a HDR test. It's going be limited. I have yet to figure out a system to get a very good range of stops with the filter set. So, hopefully I can test out what happens here, and a few other things in the distant future.
aIf you are not truthfully progressive, maybe you shouldn't say anything
bTruthful side topics in-line with or related to, the discussion accepted
cOften people deceive themselves so much they do not understand, even when the truth is explained to them
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Re: Cineon Log clips dynamic range!

PostSun Nov 10, 2019 3:59 am

And offer a cheap alternative for people who can't afford an Xyla test chart.

But still, there is a cheaper test again which has occured to me.
aIf you are not truthfully progressive, maybe you shouldn't say anything
bTruthful side topics in-line with or related to, the discussion accepted
cOften people deceive themselves so much they do not understand, even when the truth is explained to them
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Re: Cineon Log clips dynamic range!

PostSun Nov 10, 2019 4:44 am

Robert Niessner wrote:Walter, just by chance I stumbled over this today:
https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/stamp/stamp ... er=7238748
from 1993 by Glenn Kennel and David Snider, Eastman Kodak

Yes, a revised version of this paper also appears in Glenn Kennel's excellent book Color and Mastering for Digital Cinema:

https://www.amazon.com/Mastering-Digita ... 0240808746

It's a bit dated (since it's from 2006), but it's more up-to-date than that original 1993 paper on Cineon.

And BTW, thank you for the links to those papers. Those are a bit hard to find nowadays.
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Re: Cineon Log clips dynamic range!

PostSun Nov 10, 2019 8:43 am

Marc, somebody can put them in the Wayback machine at www.archive.org if the pages aren't there already.
aIf you are not truthfully progressive, maybe you shouldn't say anything
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Re: Cineon Log clips dynamic range!

PostTue Jan 14, 2020 3:17 am

I created example project archive that may help to better understand workflow details described earlier in this post viewtopic.php?f=21&t=65149#p537852
:arrow: You can download it here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/kwcgdada65lub ... e.zip?dl=0
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Re: Cineon Log clips dynamic range!

PostThu May 07, 2020 12:44 am

I found a little but rather strange problem in test project. If you disable WB patch node, it darkens transitions in very strange way:
Image
Image

To fix this problem do not disable WB patch node, but just disconnect it from Alpha output when you don't need anymore a separated patch to adjust WB:
Image
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Re: Cineon Log clips dynamic range!

PostFri May 29, 2020 4:30 pm

Hi,

I am working with BMPCC4k raw footage and looking to create an exposure ramp (it goes from over-exposed to under-exposed). I'm fairly new to this and I can't seem to find information on keying the raw settings. So, I've done what seems like a rather complex thing via the stuff here and it works. But, in a sense I don't understand what I'm getting into.

On the one hand - I like the look of the resulting image. But, I'm not sure what this is actually achieving. Am I baking in some artifacting or color science that I really don't want? Does it function without having a color checker to correct the baseline?

Can I achieve an exposure ramp similar to a raw exposure adjustment without doing all the conversations listed here? In laymen's terms what is this sequence of nodes trying to achieve?

Thanks!
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Re: Cineon Log clips dynamic range!

PostFri May 29, 2020 7:45 pm

jimjones wrote:Hi,

I am working with BMPCC4k raw footage and looking to create an exposure ramp (it goes from over-exposed to under-exposed).


Just use Gain in Linear gamma to adjusting Exposure. It is 100% the same as adjusting Exposure in RAW tab and same as adjusting ISO.
Workflow in details described in earlier post:
viewtopic.php?f=21&t=65149#p537852
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Re: Cineon Log clips dynamic range!

PostSat May 30, 2020 1:03 am

Hey Dmitry,

I appreciate your thoughts - I did do that. I used your sample file as a basis for the setup. But, because my understanding of gamma and colorspace is limited I am concerned about what it means to use the nodes that are converting it to the wide gamut and red log space. Does it map the colors differently? In other words is it a corrective space for specific color shifts in the red cameras? Because I'm looking at footage that doesn't have a color-checker I want to understand if I'm introducing a hue shift to certain colors that may be unpleasant. If I have to use a color-checker it has limited utility for what I'm doing at the moment.

I want to understand what it is I'm really doing with the parameters (switching color spaces, log to linear and back again). I don't like the idea of needing a noise filter.

Thanks for your thoughts - I'm not sure why you can't keyframe raw parameters directly (coming from photography it's how I think).

J
Dmitry Shijan wrote:
jimjones wrote:Hi,

I am working with BMPCC4k raw footage and looking to create an exposure ramp (it goes from over-exposed to under-exposed).


Just use Gain in Linear gamma to adjusting Exposure. It is 100% the same as adjusting Exposure in RAW tab and same as adjusting ISO.
Workflow in details described in earlier post:
viewtopic.php?f=21&t=65149#p537852
DR Studio 16.2.2.012, Win10Pro, Ryzen 7 1700x, 32GB, GTX 1060 6GB Studio 442.92, NVMe Cache, HD Project, Intensity Shuttle
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Re: Cineon Log clips dynamic range!

PostSat May 30, 2020 2:47 am

I use RedWideGamut and RedLog3G10 just because i like it's look and contrast response (RedLog3G10 is based on Cineon log curve) and because it provides high quality color space transform (known as RED IPP2) to Rec709. This helps to avoid Red channel clipping known in Pocket 4K and other BM cameras that use ColorScience Gen4. RedWideGamut/RedLog3G10 also fully supported in ColorChecker correction tool. In example project i use custom made LUT based on RED IPP2 that transforms only color. Same time for Log to Rec transform i use separate LUT that transforms only gamma. It is based on ARRI ColorScience because it provides better look for my eye and subjective more "film looking".
For start you can use single Color Space Transform (CST) node instead.

Noise reduction is optional.
In your situation you can simplify things:
Set project settings to YRGB.
Set project color space to Rec709(Scene)
Set clip RAW settings to "clip" and select color and gamma - BMDFilm
Set ISO to 400 (Native low ISO for Pocket4K/6K)
Add CST node Color/Gamma: WideGamutGen4/Pocket4KFilmGen4 to WideGamutGen4/Linear
Add node with Gain (This is your keyframmed Exposure)
Add CST node Color/Gamma: WideGamutGen4/Linear to WideGamutGen4/Pocket4KFilmGen4
Add another node and adjust Gain if you need to recover clipped highlights
Add another node and adjust Contrast
Add final CST node WideGamutGen4/Pocket4KFilmGen4 to Rec709/Rec709 (Turn Luma and Saturation mapping ON here)

Shape your "look" by increasing Exposure, decreasing Gain and adjusting Contrast. Nothing special, this is how it works. If you have multiple clips, copy/paste corrections from one node to other by mouse wheel click.
Learn some stuff on Youtube about color spaces and other things. Watch some basic Resolve tutorials, because it is a complicated tool that needs attention.
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Re: Cineon Log clips dynamic range!

PostTue Jun 02, 2020 1:58 pm

Hi Dmitry,

Thank you kindly for your detailed response. Of course, I do love the Arri "look" and your method in the sample gave me much more of what I was looking for in the exposure curve. I'll try out the list of things you gave me and see what I come up with.



Dmitry Shijan wrote:I use RedWideGamut and RedLog3G10 just because i like it's look and contrast response (RedLog3G10 is based on Cineon log curve) and because it provides high quality color space transform (known as RED IPP2) to Rec709. This helps to avoid Red channel clipping known in Pocket 4K and other BM cameras that use ColorScience Gen4. RedWideGamut/RedLog3G10 also fully supported in ColorChecker correction tool. In example project i use custom made LUT based on RED IPP2 that transforms only color. Same time for Log to Rec transform i use separate LUT that transforms only gamma. It is based on ARRI ColorScience because it provides better look for my eye and subjective more "film looking".
For start you can use single Color Space Transform (CST) node instead.

Noise reduction is optional.
In your situation you can simplify things:
Set project settings to YRGB.
Set project color space to Rec709(Scene)
Set clip RAW settings to "clip" and select color and gamma - BMDFilm
Set ISO to 400 (Native low ISO for Pocket4K/6K)
Add CST node Color/Gamma: WideGamutGen4/Pocket4KFilmGen4 to WideGamutGen4/Linear
Add node with Gain (This is your keyframmed Exposure)
Add CST node Color/Gamma: WideGamutGen4/Linear to WideGamutGen4/Pocket4KFilmGen4
Add another node and adjust Gain if you need to recover clipped highlights
Add another node and adjust Contrast
Add final CST node WideGamutGen4/Pocket4KFilmGen4 to Rec709/Rec709 (Turn Luma and Saturation mapping ON here)

Shape your "look" by increasing Exposure, decreasing Gain and adjusting Contrast. Nothing special, this is how it works. If you have multiple clips, copy/paste corrections from one node to other by mouse wheel click.
Learn some stuff on Youtube about color spaces and other things. Watch some basic Resolve tutorials, because it is a complicated tool that needs attention.
DR Studio 16.2.2.012, Win10Pro, Ryzen 7 1700x, 32GB, GTX 1060 6GB Studio 442.92, NVMe Cache, HD Project, Intensity Shuttle
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Re: Cineon Log clips dynamic range!

PostTue Jun 02, 2020 10:24 pm

Upscaling to REDWideGamut color space and using RED IPP2 color transform helps to fix red channel clipping problem in BM ColorScience Gen4:

Image
Image
Image
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Re: Cineon Log clips dynamic range!

PostWed Jun 03, 2020 12:25 am

Prefer the BM colour science. The problem here is roll off. The Red might be using the other channels to fill in extra stop data and give done roll off, however there is that horrible Sony like color shift to pastel pink on a pure red. As I've written before they could calculate a purer hue is there and here they could roll into a maximum value of that hue as a clip. The user could then dial in some washout if they want.

If you look at the Paradise Island clip, you see they are getting the right normal range by using heavy clipping. It would be good if resolve could use a bit more of these techniques, and the other shaping techniques I have listed perviously, in your other thread I think.
You should be able to get 15 stops plus out of the pocket 4k camera with a little lower end issue. I'm talking about up to 17 stops for eng purposes. I think the mini 4.6k is pretty much maxed out from memory, maybe 16 stops or so, which is 1+ doubling in usable brightness for eng purposes. Which people probably are already doing without cleaning noise up more.

I know people don't regard my opinion too much, but how many times do I find stuff?

Re-edit:

Resolve should have a few auto look options including "Maximise range (by highlight recovery and stretching and cleaning shadow)" as a starting point for grading.
aIf you are not truthfully progressive, maybe you shouldn't say anything
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cOften people deceive themselves so much they do not understand, even when the truth is explained to them
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Re: Cineon Log clips dynamic range!

PostWed Jun 03, 2020 12:47 am

Wayne Steven wrote:Prefer the BM colour science. The problem here is roll off. The Red might be using the other channels to fill in extra stop data and give done roll off, however there is that horrible Sony like color shift to pastel pink on a pure red.

No, this is BM colour science is too orange. RED color is perfect and neutral. It don't produce any shifts.
It was discussed many times that red channel clipping in BM colour science gen4 is due too small color space. gen4 color space just can't fit in all saturation captured by sensor.
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Re: Cineon Log clips dynamic range!

PostWed Jun 03, 2020 1:05 am

The pure red in the sample is pinkish. Whatever the colour space is, you can see the burnout zone in the lights is basically the same, except that Red is giving an extra ring of pink stepping around it. When using a routine they could smoothly calculate a ramp path into burnout, and ramp to pure red instead etc, as an image enhancement.
aIf you are not truthfully progressive, maybe you shouldn't say anything
bTruthful side topics in-line with or related to, the discussion accepted
cOften people deceive themselves so much they do not understand, even when the truth is explained to them
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Re: Cineon Log clips dynamic range!

PostFri Jun 12, 2020 12:51 am

Wayne Steven wrote:The pure red in the sample is pinkish. Whatever the colour space is, you can see the burnout zone in the lights is basically the same, except that Red is giving an extra ring of pink stepping around it. When using a routine they could smoothly calculate a ramp path into burnout, and ramp to pure red instead etc, as an image enhancement.


You can't really fix it until BMD finally fixes the mess they've done with BMD Film V4.
Tried converting Braw to other Gamuts/Gammas to no avail and finally gave up.
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Re: Cineon Log clips dynamic range!

PostFri Jun 12, 2020 3:18 am

deezid wrote:
Wayne Steven wrote:The pure red in the sample is pinkish. Whatever the colour space is, you can see the burnout zone in the lights is basically the same, except that Red is giving an extra ring of pink stepping around it. When using a routine they could smoothly calculate a ramp path into burnout, and ramp to pure red instead etc, as an image enhancement.


You can't really fix it until BMD finally fixes the mess they've done with BMD Film V4.
Tried converting Braw to other Gamuts/Gammas to no avail and finally gave up.



I agree, it's something for BM.
aIf you are not truthfully progressive, maybe you shouldn't say anything
bTruthful side topics in-line with or related to, the discussion accepted
cOften people deceive themselves so much they do not understand, even when the truth is explained to them
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