Color shift in export

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Dan Finlayson

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Color shift in export

PostMon Apr 01, 2013 9:29 am

I continuously get exports with bad gamma and a color shift out of Resolve 9. I only just got Resolve up and running on this machine (Mac Pro 2010 w/ ATI 5870) since the 10.8.3 update came out - could this be some sort of opencl problem? I saw there was a CUDA update - what about ATI cards?

I've exported h.264, prores 422, and prores 4444 quicktimes (and opened them in both quicktime and VLC) as well as 10 bit RGB DPX sequences and none of them look like the preview in Resolve. Put side-by-side on the same monitor (Dell U2410).

I'm running no LUTs. I've had good experiences with Resolve 8 but this sort of inaccuracy makes 9 unusable at the moment.
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Dan Finlayson

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Re: Color shift in export

PostMon Apr 01, 2013 7:02 pm

Top right is the DaVinci Resolve preview in the color window, top left is ProRes 422 HQ opened in quicktime, bottom left is ProRes 422 HQ opened in VLC. My DPX exports look most like the quicktime player version.

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Dan Finlayson

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Re: Color shift in export

PostMon Apr 01, 2013 7:23 pm

It would be one thing if it were simply a gamma shift, but the green polluting skin tones makes the whole correction pointless.
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Peter Chamberlain

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Re: Color shift in export

PostTue Apr 02, 2013 1:09 am

Try the new DaVinci Resolve 9.1.3 on our support web site and confirm if you still see an issue.
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Dan Finlayson

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Re: Color shift in export

PostTue Apr 02, 2013 5:06 am

Updated to 9.1.3 and it's still throwing the colors off. The export/render was significantly faster though, so that's good.

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William Hobson

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Re: Color shift in export

PostTue Apr 02, 2013 5:22 am

Have you quantified this problem on a REC709 broadcast monitor with both files (corrected OCF through Resolve and Media Express for your rendered files)? Color space doesn't always translate very with between different software interfaces and media players. Everyone codes these color translations differently. Its best to look at one well-calibrated REC709 display playing through the same hardware, in the color space it actually is and should be displayed in, and not a representation in sRGB in the GUI monitor/quicktime/VLC.
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Dan Finlayson

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Re: Color shift in export

PostTue Apr 02, 2013 6:39 am

I do not have access to a rec 709 monitor. However, I have done the following steps:

I just viewed the exported quicktime in resolve and it matches up with the preview 99%! But this isnt very useful to me because the whole point here is to get the footage out of resolve and use it elsewhere.

I have imported the footage into premiere CS5. In playback, it looks nearly correct. However, if I click on the image in the viewer while its paused, it shifts wildly green. And sure enough, when exported from premiere, it has that same green cast.

I have also brought the exported quicktimes into compressor and there too, the files are displayed incorrectly and exported incorrectly.

I guess at this point, I'm trying to understand why resolve reads quicktimes differently than quicktime and adobe premiere do. And what is the use of making a quicktime if its useless everywhere else except inside of resolve? Also, its interesting that when I open a DPX sequence from resolve inside of premiere, it too has a green color cast.

I still can't rule out that this is some problem with opencl or how my video card is talking to resolve... but its very troublesome. How would you suggest I round-trip with premiere or final cut if I can't use quicktimes or DPXs?
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Dan Finlayson

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Re: Color shift in export

PostTue Apr 02, 2013 6:53 am

Also, I'm comparing everything on the same monitor set to AdobeRGB. I would expect it to look different on a 709 monitor, but side-by-side on the same monitor, in the same color space, it should look the same. Different software interprets color differently... but Adobe and Quicktime/Apple are behaving one way and resolve by a whole different recipe.
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adamroberts

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Re: Color shift in export

PostTue Apr 02, 2013 9:31 am

Have you tried setting your display to Rec.709 or even sRGB? Does the same colour shift happen?

It might be that Resolve is not displaying AdobeRGB as its designed for broadcast.
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William Hobson

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Re: Color shift in export

PostTue Apr 02, 2013 2:02 pm

Dan Finlayson wrote:Also, I'm comparing everything on the same monitor set to AdobeRGB. I would expect it to look different on a 709 monitor, but side-by-side on the same monitor, in the same color space, it should look the same. Different software interprets color differently... but Adobe and Quicktime/Apple are behaving one way and resolve by a whole different recipe.


This is why I stated in my post about comparing it on a REC709 monitor. There is no way to know how a software is interpreting a specific color space, and you will go crazy trying to work it out. I have this issue on other software as well, like OSD/EXD from ColorFront. What I see in the GUI almost never looks like my rendered results, and the Quicktime player doesn't look like Windows Media Player on a Windows machine. You can look at video through Safari and Firefox and both will look extremely different from each other. Its an issue we must deal with in our ever changing digital world.

Fundamentally, you are trying to compare REC709 native material in AdobeRGB space, which now makes each software have to do its own mathematical conversion in order to display that color space on your computer monitor. You will be 100% better off using an HDMI or SDI based External Broadcast monitor or Plasma, even a cheap one, that is calibrated, or you will go NUTS trying to get one software to match the other or convince yourself you're not screwing something up. An external monitor will display what your image will look like (relatively) in the native color space that is intended, which is why it is an industry standard practice to use one.
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Dan Finlayson

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Re: Color shift in export

PostTue Apr 02, 2013 6:48 pm

William Hobson wrote:Fundamentally, you are trying to compare REC709 native material in AdobeRGB space, which now makes each software have to do its own mathematical conversion in order to display that color space on your computer monitor. You will be 100% better off using an HDMI or SDI based External Broadcast monitor or Plasma, even a cheap one, that is calibrated, or you will go NUTS trying to get one software to match the other or convince yourself you're not screwing something up. An external monitor will display what your image will look like (relatively) in the native color space that is intended, which is why it is an industry standard practice to use one.


I am not starting with REC709 native material though. My footage originated on film stock which was scanned into 10bit DPX image sequences. I want to deliver into several formats that live in several different color spaces - a DPX out, a ProRes4444 out for file-based delivery/computer projection, and H.264 for direct upload on vimeo.

So... why do my DPX exports look as bad as my H.264 exports? Those are two very different color spaces, neither of which are native to my monitor, yet they somehow look exactly the same as one-another! I should also point out that I corrected a previous film with the same origination format and output to ProRes4444, all going off an sRGB monitor, in Resolve 8 with no problems whatsoever.

It seems to me there is some sort of rendering intent issue going on here; in the stills world, which has more robust color management in place right now, you can easily control the conversion of images from one color space/bit depth to another so that they are perceptually the same.
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Re: Color shift in export

PostTue Apr 02, 2013 8:27 pm

Dan,

DPX, ProRes, and H264 are different deliverable formats, yes, but they have nothing to do with colorspace in their essence. DPX can be any color space you choose - LOG, REC709, P3, XYZ... and Quicktime ProRes 4444 works in a very similar fashion, but H264 can get tricker because of the specific compression algorithm and RGB-YCBCR conversions (it depends on how its encoded)... so it makes perfect sense that the two match on your monitor if you are using the same grade for everything rendered. The only way they wouldn't match is if you were using an output LUT for one format and not the other(s)..

Are you using any type of LUT with the film scans (assuming negative film) in your grading path to move them out of Log space, or are you grading the negative directly?
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Dan Finlayson

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Re: Color shift in export

PostWed Apr 03, 2013 10:12 am

I appreciate your explanation of delivery formats vs color space, but yes, I understand that - I happen to know that my DPX files arent 709, my quicktime ought to be, and my H.264 is... whatever 264 is.

And yes, you're right, it makes total sense that they all look the same as one another! So why do they not look at all like the preview inside of Davinci?

I'm not using any LUTs with the DPX footage - I'm just giving it a fat s-curve.

To blackmagic:
1. Is this normal behavior for Resolve 9? I still think something is happening at the videocard level here.
2. If it is how resolve works now, do you have a display LUT that can translate between Resolve's interpretation of color and Apple/Quicktime/Adobe? I want to be able correct projects destined for non REC709 devices.

Thanks!
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Dan Finlayson

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Re: Color shift in export

PostTue Apr 09, 2013 5:02 am

Any solutions out there? Anyone else seeing drastically different colors on export?
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Re: Color shift in export

PostSun Apr 21, 2013 9:33 pm

I had the same issue and the reason turned out to be an incorrect color profile in the system display settings.

Cheers,
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Dan Finlayson

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Re: Color shift in export

PostMon Apr 22, 2013 7:37 am

Can you elaborate on what your solution was? I know that quicktime relies on the system's color profile settings somehow...

I'm using the default profile for my Dell U2410 with the gamma set to 2.2 (the profile normally carries a 1.8 gamma). Could that be my problem? Do I have to leave it at 1.8?

I'm also running two displays. How does quicktime handle having two display profiles at once? I currently have the same profile on both monitors even though one of them is an old viewsonic.
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Re: Color shift in export

PostTue Apr 23, 2013 12:12 pm

Hi, sorry for the delay.

Saying I have solved my problem may have been a bit of an overstatement. Thing is that when I change my monitor profile from the manufacturer supplied to a standart srgb the color cast in the prores encoded files almost disappears. The h.264 colors are still off though. Not as bad but still off. The real problem is that this will impact all colors on the machine and if you have a nicely calibrated profile that otherwise works fine ... well you won't have it anymore.

As far as I know the gamma should be fine at 2.2 - no reason to change it, plus it won't affect tint shifts much.
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Dan Finlayson

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Re: Color shift in export

PostTue Apr 23, 2013 11:03 pm

Interesting - I had my monitor set to sRGB through a number of my tests and experienced the color shifting in prores and H.264 to the same degree.

Even more puzzling was the shift in the DPX files when opened by Adobe... that's not a quicktime format at all.

Anyone from Blackmagic have any ideas? Does Resolve not color manage the GUI? I was under the impression that it did...
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Re: Color shift in export

PostTue Jul 09, 2013 2:15 pm

I have just stumbled onto this thread whilst searching for an answer to the exact same problems. I am a new Resolve user, coming from a stills background originally. I have found the exact same shift towards green/cyan whilst exporting quicktime files, and any other format for that matter.

I understand the points about viewing on a monitor calibrated to Rec 709, but in reality all content we work on will ultimately be viewed either online or on portable devices so I cannot see the logic in working in that way. My monitor is an Eizo ColorEdge CG245 calibrated weekly to our custom settings. What I cannot get my read around is how on the same monitor the rendered quicktime and Resolve preview can differ so wildly.

Conversely, whilst using After Effects with colour management preferences enabled produces a quicktime file that matches the preview in after effects almost perfectly.

Does anyone have any more clues into this issue? Currently it is rendering Resolve and recently bought hardware completely useless in our workflow.
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Thomas Howard

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Re: Color shift in export

PostThu Jul 18, 2013 2:35 am

a note to Peter Chamberlain of Blackmagic Design - I am using 9.1.5 and experience the same off color renders... however, the renders look fantastic importing them back into DaVinci Resolve.

Yes, I am a newbee testing out this robust program - but I am also a seasoned prepress professional and colorist within the FCP - Adobe workflow. Somehow us Mac users have been able to correct in "Color" or "After Effects" and render reasonable results to deliver all media needs. My edit bays include NEC - SpectraView hardware calibrated monitors under prepress controlled lighting conditions. I also judge with Sony OLED field monitors and a variety of projection and screening methods.

Certainly there are and always will be color control issues across all the mediums - that keeps Colorists flush with work. These forums are great but I still haven't found post regarding this topic with answers.

Would it make sense for DaVinci Resolve to have a set of profiles and a clear workflow to apply them for color consistency export to ApplePro Res, Quicktime, and the more popular programs?

I really like DaVinci but correcting to compensate for the dull green export is awkward at best.

Can anyone point me toward a solution?
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Re: Color shift in export

PostSat Aug 31, 2013 12:18 pm

Had the same issue when exporting to prores , fixed by checking Data Levels in video monitoring settings in Master project settings (don't know how it can be related but it fixed the problem)

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Thomas Howard

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Re: Color shift in export

PostSun Sep 01, 2013 5:51 pm

Thanks, this is interesting: Video Monitoring/ Data Levels ... will test.

However my current fix = QuickTime Uncompressed RGB 10 bits in output. These are very large files and useful for final projects requiring all the data but overkill for web PR, etc.
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Re: Color shift in export

PostThu Sep 19, 2013 8:52 am

Dan Finlayson wrote:I continuously get exports with bad gamma and a color shift out of Resolve 9. I only just got Resolve up and running on this machine (Mac Pro 2010 w/ ATI 5870) since the 10.8.3 update came out - could this be some sort of opencl problem? I saw there was a CUDA update - what about ATI cards?

I've exported h.264, prores 422, and prores 4444 quicktimes (and opened them in both quicktime and VLC) as well as 10 bit RGB DPX sequences and none of them look like the preview in Resolve. Put side-by-side on the same monitor (Dell U2410).

I'm running no LUTs. I've had good experiences with Resolve 8 but this sort of inaccuracy makes 9 unusable at the moment.


I got the same issue..
grading in resolve 10, dont have a rec709 monitor, only my eizo CG screens. So my preview is GUI only..
See screen shot.
Left top: resolve 10, right: VLC, bottom left: Quick Time. Quick time is waaaay off..

But the question I have now is this: is GUI preview in resolve colour correct at all? It make sense that its not..
And would I still need a rec709 monitor even though I grade for online only? I mean what setup should i have in order to get what I see on my laptop or desktop screens inside davinci to match rendered files on same screens?
Hope this make sense :)
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Thomas Howard

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Re: Color shift in export

PostThu Sep 19, 2013 2:30 pm

help is right above your post: check Data Levels in video monitoring settings in Master project settings

and on a larger file size scale: QuickTime Uncompressed RGB 10 bits in output

You might want to download QuickTime 7 where you have A/V playback controls

QuickTime has a problem with messing with color and this includes Apple Pro Res.

If you encode the uncompressed RGB 10bit in Adobe Media Encoder you might be surprised with better color.

This is a problem that should have a better and clear functioning solution. If you discover better answers please remember to post them here...
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Re: Color shift in export

PostFri Sep 20, 2013 12:07 pm

twhthi wrote:help is right above your post: check Data Levels in video monitoring settings in Master project settings

and on a larger file size scale: QuickTime Uncompressed RGB 10 bits in output

You might want to download QuickTime 7 where you have A/V playback controls

QuickTime has a problem with messing with color and this includes Apple Pro Res.

If you encode the uncompressed RGB 10bit in Adobe Media Encoder you might be surprised with better color.

This is a problem that should have a better and clear functioning solution. If you discover better answers please remember to post them here...


Checked Data Levels, absolutely no difference...
I dont think there's any use of uncompressed, since I'll have to end up with compressed mp4 for web right? Or am I missing something here? :)
Agree with you, this issue must be addressed with much higher priority from BM side IMHO...
Will post if find something out.. :)
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Thomas Howard

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Re: Color shift in export

PostFri Sep 20, 2013 10:40 pm

you were asking how to get better color out of DaVince Resolution and 2 solutions were provided - did you try either or both?
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Re: Color shift in export

PostSat Sep 21, 2013 5:23 am

This post is exhausting me. There is a reason People spend between $7000 and $50000 on colour reference monitors.

1 - They work in the correct colour space (i.e. REC-709 or others like XYZ (used for DCP's) etc.)

2 - There $7000 to $50000 or more which means Accurate Colour.

3 - Many can be calibrated properly with an Expensive Bug.

4 - Viewing or Colour correcting on a Computer Monitor is Ridiculous, Again Wrong Colour Space.

5 - The same Computer monitor will look different in many cases with different Video Cards. Especially from different Manufacturers like ATI, NVIDIA or INTEL. Even a GTX-680 from EVGA can look different than one from ASUS or MSI due to the differing design of the Output Driver Chipset on the DVI or Display Ports. I've even had Video Cards that looked quite different from one DVI Port to the other with the same monitor. The way a Chipset Processes Video may also cause different variations between your three images from one Video Card to another as well.

6 - Computer Monitors are basically Cheap Crap and with the variation in Video Cards it is once again Ridiculous to even try and judge colour on a Computer Monitor. Computer Monitor and Video Card less than $1000 and wrong colour space, Reference Monitor 7K or more.

7 - Avid, Resolve, Final Cut, Premiere, etc. will even display the images differently in there viewer windows because they all basically display Proxies of your Video. How each piece of software displays the Proxy is dependent on how each ones Code interprets the Video.

8 - As mentioned in an earlier Post each file type can look different because it can have a different embedded colour space and compression doesn't help things either.

9 - Take Avid as an example and export a video in both RGB and REC-709 then look at it on your Computer Monitor. The REC-709 Export will be completely out of whack, so what does that tell us. It tells us that a Computer Monitor cannot display REC-709 Properly so therefore it should never be used to judge or correct colour under an circumstance.

10 - Next try to Print it Properly, this opens up a whole new can of worms like Additive and Subtractive Colour, Blah! Blah! Blah!......and I digress.

I think its time to stop, if no one gets it by now then I have failed miserably.

Thanks
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Thomas Howard

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Re: Color shift in export

PostSat Sep 21, 2013 4:28 pm

Most of these comments are true, however, maybe you are missing the point of this thread. Regardless if someone is working with a $10,000 prepress monitoring set-up or the dime store version - everyone should be able to at least get similar output results on their same exact monitor/set-up. Whatever system is being utilized, whatever software, whatever output : results should be repeating on that system. Until one is able to repeat their result output to other devices or mediums is likely a fruitless task.


Yes, due diligence is required to assure one is making (as good as it gets) correction judgements on their system. Then again address output to the always increasing myriad of devices. I disagree, as would most post, prepress houses, manufacturers and vendors, with your "Ridiculous" comment about Computer Monitors. Granted, making color corrections on a $100.00 17" garnered from a garage sale is simply silly. My reality is that my bi-monthly, hardware calibrated and expensive prepress monitors - with proper attention to color space, etc., do just fine.

I prove this several ways:

1. My computer monitors nearly match my broadcast monitor that runs off of Decklink SDI.
2. I am able to get great output results through digital projectors, online trailers, including going to print.
3. I can control and customize output to render "as best" for broadcast, DVD, Blu-Ray, etc.

The bottom line for successful postproduction is a controlled viewing environment, proper calibration, attention to color workflow and testing your results are all required. With informed attention to video scopes and other tools, powerful programs like DaVince Resolve give the masses the ability to process quality results, even on less expensive systems.

The other big point to be made is fixing color problems is not a slam dunk with 10 minutes of reading forums for answers. Everyone needs to read the threads and garner solutions that work for them. Posting a repeating problem without first searching the forum for answers will only tend to irritate the people who are trying to help. Do your homework and being in a hurry will only contribute to frustration.
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Re: Color shift in export

PostWed Oct 02, 2013 9:09 pm

All shifts are 100% related to bugs in software/players.
There is no need for 10K monitor just to have same look in DPX and AVC encoded file. Actual color accuracy in this case is a separate issues.

Even if you work with full range RGB you should be able to export with proper RGB->YUV conversion from software like Resolve. It's not a rocket since- conversion values are strict for SD and HD and there is absolutely no reason (except bug in different software) for any color or gamma shifts.
Use good transcoding and viewing (also) tools and you won't get any shifts.
Resolve is okish, but still not 100% reliable/accurate during its conversions. Make sure you set Video Levels correctly for exporter- this is the key point here.
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Brent Marginet

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Re: Color shift in export

PostTue Oct 22, 2013 4:36 am

I do want to apologize for being a bit of a prick about the colour **** issues. I just think that in the 21st century with all this amazing technology we have that someone, somewhere, somehow and at sometime could agree on one standard for things and stick to it. I've also seen our Colourist re-colour two to many movies at a reduced rate because they were done on HP Dreamcolor Monitors that were supposedly calibrated correctly to Rec-709.

I dive into many different areas in my life and the lack of standardization everywhere you turn makes me crazy sometimes.

Thanks.
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Re: Color shift in export

PostFri Oct 25, 2013 3:54 am

This whole thread is laughable. The visual world is way behind the sound world in understanding reality!

1-if you are not going to purchase a calibrated quality monitor then at the very least invest in a cheap Black magic mini monitor to use with a decent quality reference monitor. This will at the very least take some of the interaction between the OS, the applications, preview windows etc out of the equation. Video is decoded and sent directly to a display bypassing a lot of this interaction.

2-In the audio world we learned long ago that sound will never translate exactly the same on any two devices, even from the same manufacturer. That's why all good sound engineers test their mixes on multiple speakers. This practice should be adopted by visual people too. No matter what you think in theory no two displays will ever match, not for long anyway! More importantly, the biggest factor in this equation is people! Everyone's color perception drifts, far more than the relatively minor color shifts you are seeing on your outputs! And we also automatically white balance! Ambient lighting, what people are wearing, what they ate, even their culture affects color perception.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b013c8tb

Don't be so anal retentive about minor color shifts and work to make sure you product translates well to many devices
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Re: Color shift in export

PostFri Oct 25, 2013 4:51 am

Thank you...... If you read my Post with the 10 points listed you will see that I'm basically saying some of the same things. I go into much more detail and I was being an ******* about it because as I say in a latter Post. "I've seen two to many movies that were colour corrected on HP's Dreamcolor Monitors that were supposedly calibrated to Rec-709". The end result pay twice for colour correction and still not get it the way you wanted because there wasn't enough money left to pay for a full redo.

ldtowers wrote:This whole thread is laughable. The visual world is way behind the sound world in understanding reality!

1-if you are not going to purchase a calibrated quality monitor then at the very least invest in a cheap Black magic mini monitor to use with a decent quality reference monitor. This will at the very least take some of the interaction between the OS, the applications, preview windows etc out of the equation. Video is decoded and sent directly to a display bypassing a lot of this interaction.

2-In the audio world we learned long ago that sound will never translate exactly the same on any two devices, even from the same manufacturer. That's why all good sound engineers test their mixes on multiple speakers. This practice should be adopted by visual people too. No matter what you think in theory no two displays will ever match, not for long anyway! More importantly, the biggest factor in this equation is people! Everyone's color perception drifts, far more than the relatively minor color shifts you are seeing on your outputs! And we also automatically white balance! Ambient lighting, what people are wearing, what they ate, even their culture affects color perception.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b013c8tb

Don't be so anal retentive about minor color shifts and work to make sure you product translates well to many devices
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Re: Color shift in export

PostSat Oct 26, 2013 2:14 am

I am not disagreeing with you. However there is a big difference between Color corrections not being done in rec 709 space vs RGB and the relatively minor color shifts, which as you quite correctly pointed, out were probably for any number of different hardware/software interactions.
The point remains that standardization will never lead to perfection because of all the variables outside the reach of the standards. Its not that we shouldn't have them, but like in the audio world, learn to anticipate transcend the invariable inconsistencies and create images that will tolerate some variation from the norm. I have seen too any people create images that will only look good on a perfectly calibrated display because the images push up against or marginally exceed the theoretical limits of a perfect displays capabilities.

And you can test the fact that the encoder probably isn't at fault my opening the same encoded file in QTXand QT7.
The only way to compare encoded files for similarity or differences is to compare them when every other variable is identical. Different apps and devices, especially Apple quicktime and consumer displays all have personalities that they inject. This can't be helped.
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Brent Marginet

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Re: Color shift in export

PostSun Oct 27, 2013 4:29 am

I hope I didn't come across as an a-hole because I didn't think you were disagreeing with me in any way at all. I actually thought exactly the opposite. I was happy to see someone finally agree with my overbearing opinion of this subject.

Your statement about testing on multiple audio monitors was the best one of all and summed up the whole thing nicely. An example is the continued proliferation of NS-10's in Audio Mix Rooms so you can get a general idea of what something will sound like on crappy consumer speakers. Really why didn't Yamaha make an exact self powered version of them. I think there new models sound so different than the NS-10's that they are hard to get used to. Of course NS-10's are now so old that they are all getting stiff, tired and unusable from years of use and abuse.

Thanks


ldtowers wrote:I am not disagreeing with you. However there is a big difference between Color corrections not being done in rec 709 space vs RGB and the relatively minor color shifts, which as you quite correctly pointed, out were probably for any number of different hardware/software interactions.
The point remains that standardization will never lead to perfection because of all the variables outside the reach of the standards. Its not that we shouldn't have them, but like in the audio world, learn to anticipate transcend the invariable inconsistencies and create images that will tolerate some variation from the norm. I have seen too any people create images that will only look good on a perfectly calibrated display because the images push up against or marginally exceed the theoretical limits of a perfect displays capabilities.

And you can test the fact that the encoder probably isn't at fault my opening the same encoded file in QTXand QT7.
The only way to compare encoded files for similarity or differences is to compare them when every other variable is identical. Different apps and devices, especially Apple quicktime and consumer displays all have personalities that they inject. This can't be helped.
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Dan Finlayson

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Re: Color shift in export

PostSat Nov 09, 2013 10:47 am

These inaccuracies between software/hardware configurations CAN be helped. They figured it out with ICC profiles and printer profiles in the stills world. Why is there no implementation of color management in motion codecs?

Why is quicktime such a piece of ****?

Why has ProRes been adopted as a professional standard when it relies on a POS media player?

Why does every other piece of video software on my setup output video one way and DaVinci behaves completely differently?

Why has no one from BlackMagic posted in this thread in months?

There's a reason this software is free. I wanted to upgrade to the full version for the noise reduction and output options, but this lack of support is really turning me off.
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Re: Color shift in export

PostMon Nov 11, 2013 11:40 am

IMPORTANT UPDATE

I have FINALLY discovered what the problem here is.

The issue revolves around color profiling. The common thread among those of us experiencing these green, washed out exports? We're all using wide gamut displays. Quicktime's color management does not compensate for AdobeRGB or similar wide gamut spaces. DaVinci seems to have some form of color management, but when it comes to wide gamut on OSX, their implementation appears half-assed at best. All my footage in the GUI when using a wide gamut display was over saturated and extra red. This skewed perception led to me letting the footage go a little green.

DaVinci isn't nearly as far off as quicktime is, but its significant.

I've now switched over both my monitors to sRGB and the problem is gone! My green/washed out exports now look identical to what I'm seeing in DaVinci, and this isn't terribly far off from where I thought my corrections were landing. Now that I know that my exports will match my work within the software, it'll be a quick fix.

So try switching over to sRGB on your primary monitors. It's working great for me.

I'd say Apple is mostly at fault here for not adapting to the display technology many artists are switching over to. But DaVinci's color management was definitely over saturating the GUI preview significantly.

Also, this solution isn't great if you use your wide gamut display to its fullest for still image editing on the same machine. And right now I'm running plain old sRGB - not sure what will happen once I recalibrate this monitor, though hopefully with sRGB as my target, things will go smoothly.

It would be great if BM could publish a short white paper titled "DaVinci, Color-Management, Quicktime, and You" because that would have saved me a lot of aggravation.
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Re: Color shift in export

PostMon Nov 11, 2013 6:41 pm

Hi Dan.

I just created my user to say THANKS YOU MAN.

I was loosing my mind with this color problem. I have read one millions web about it. I read your sRGB solution and well, I never thought about it. I tried it out and done, the problem has gone.

And Dan, there is a problem uploading to Vimeo, a Gamma color shift... Well, exporting with theese setting the problem has gone. YOu still need to touch the contrast a bit, but the gamma shift is gone.

You made my day :)

Thanks man.

Best.

JJ
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Re: Color shift in export

PostThu Nov 21, 2013 10:07 pm

Everyone looks for the quick fix. Be warned, pay attention to your video scopes and check your output on the devices you intend content for. Just because you tweak a file to look good through vimeo on your monitor does not mean it will necessarily look good on everyone else's... unless, of course, your monitor fulfills the specs of a professional colorist with a tested and proven workflow.
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Re: Color shift in export

PostSun Nov 24, 2013 7:21 am

Ok, maybe I should have worded it like this: DaVinci Resolve for OSX is incompatible with wide gamut displays unless operating in a (limited) sRGB colorspace.

It was my scopes that revealed this in the first place.
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Re: Color shift in export

PostSun Nov 24, 2013 10:24 pm

Dan Finlayson wrote:Ok, maybe I should have worded it like this: DaVinci Resolve for OSX is incompatible with wide gamut displays unless operating in a (limited) sRGB colorspace.

Or maybe it should be "DaVinci Resolve for OSX is incompatible with wide gamut displays unless operating in a (limited) sRGB colorspace IF using the GUI viewer for grading which is NOT recommended by
BMD at all !"
. ;)

Also, Adam suggested in this thread back in APRIL to try setting your display to 709 or sRGB. But people still tried to hammer the square peg etc. Don't get me wrong, i think it's important the GUI viewer should be colour managed and right now i'm running a NEC Spectraview 271 as GUI alongside a Sony PVM1741 via a decklink studio card at home and they actually match surprisingly well, but i set the NEC to 709 and calibrated it to that right from the start as it best represents my current target medium.
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Re: Color shift in export

PostTue Nov 26, 2013 7:21 am

First of all, you're totally right - I don't know if I just didn't understand that Adam was referring to the ICC profiles or something… would've saved some time.

However, BM does suggest that DaVinci can be a viable dailies creation tool via laptop for on-set work. I expect color accurate dailies. The current spashscreen for DaVinci 10 shows it running on an iMac… sure you could get rec 709 out of thunderbolt, but why would you go down that road and introduce more software/hardware into the mix?

But I guess my biggest issue with this all is the idea that GUI use is somehow not an option. Computer display technology is appropriate for stills work and has been implemented effectively for years. But for some reason the video world is too good for color management…

…except for Smoke and Nuke…

Huh
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Re: Color shift in export

PostTue Nov 26, 2013 8:17 am

Yeah, like i said - don't get me wrong, i agree the GUI should be colour managed (like Photoshop etc) as there's many situations (as you describe) where it would be most welcome and i've posted here the same thing quite a few times before.

The reality is for now it's not advised to use the GUI viewer, but we can make it work and i think i have 'successfully' to my needs. Keep requesting though, as will i. :)
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Re: Color shift in export

PostSat Jun 07, 2014 1:57 pm

I'm having a similar colour shift to green when exporting h264 only. ProRes looks fine. I'm currently exporting to ProRes HQ in Resolve first, then using Compressor to encode a h264 file, which gives me the same colour as the Resolve ProRes file. Is there something wrong with h264 in Resolve?
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Re: Color shift in export

PostSun Jun 22, 2014 9:11 pm

The thing that gets me to doubt that any of this is related to players or screens is the fact that the screenshots sent above concern situations showing the output on the same screen.

furthermore, I have this issue:

i desaturate to 0,

i even put the color mixer in monochrome to be sure,
but i get a green color cast in what is supposed to come out grayscale or black and white.
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Re: Color shift in export

PostWed Jul 23, 2014 7:07 am

ldtowers wrote:This whole thread is laughable. The visual world is way behind the sound world in understanding reality!

Don't be so anal retentive about minor color shifts and work to make sure you product translates well to many devices


As someone who works in both audio and visual reading your post, you're really missing the point of this post and it's embarrassing to read as a fellow audio engineer.

To quote 'don't be so anal retentive about minor color shifts'... <--- so dam ignorant, this is why I love the internet.

Mate compare it to reverb, imagine bounce something you've spent all day engineering and every time you do, reverb's decay has tripled <---- that's a comparison to color shift. It's important and it's worth being anal retentive.

18 months later and people's poor comprehension skills still get shaking my head, needed to explain it to you.
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Re: Color shift in export

PostThu Sep 04, 2014 7:12 pm

Sorry you are wrong about this TOTALLY. Reverb is nothing like color shifts! A color shift is essentially a subtle FREQUENCY shift. Reverb is a TEMPORAL shift that is overlaid upon the original which in the visual world would be more like ghosting
As an practicing engineer I am shaking my head.
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Re: Color shift in export

PostSat Jan 03, 2015 9:50 pm

Interesting thread ... I'd like to see one on the variations you see when outputting/delivering in either Data or Video mode after grading raw footage. When grading raw footage, I set monitoring in Resolve to "Data" and grade on a Eizo CG277 10 bit factory calibrated monitor set to 709 color space.

When "Data" mode is set as output on the deliver tab (using PR 422 HQ), clips looks richer in saturation, more contrasty, and with deeper blacks even when viewed on an sRGB cinema display or on Vimeo (after using x.264 compression). I would think that when grading for sRGB color space on a monitor set at 709, you would set your Resolve output to "Video" based on my understanding of what's stated in the manual. However, clips graded in "Data" mode and outputted in "Video" mode look a little washed out, with less saturation, and less contrast.

Anyone have any thoughts about this. Kinda puzzled about what output settings to use on the deliver page. I have thought the "Data" mode on the deliver page was reserved for 10 bit viewing, but perhaps I am wrong.
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Re: Color shift in export

PostSun Jan 04, 2015 4:42 pm

Scott Stacy wrote:When "Data" mode is set as output on the deliver tab (using PR 422 HQ), clips looks richer in saturation, more contrasty, and with deeper blacks even when viewed on an sRGB cinema display or on Vimeo (after using x.264 compression). I would think that when grading for sRGB color space on a monitor set at 709, you would set your Resolve output to "Video" based on my understanding of what's stated in the manual. However, clips graded in "Data" mode and outputted in "Video" mode look a little washed out, with less saturation, and less contrast.

Anyone have any thoughts about this. Kinda puzzled about what output settings to use on the deliver page. I have thought the "Data" mode on the deliver page was reserved for 10 bit viewing, but perhaps I am wrong.


I always find that "Data" mode gives more accurate result. Prores 4444 output in data mode is almost identical to what I see in Resolve. Hence for QT needs I always output in Prores 4444 from Resolve (in "data" mode) and then go for other Prores conversions through Compressor 4.0. Gives me better results.

jong joug wrote:Since we're not supposed to edit posts I'll give U a short answer.

If you are on a Stay Lean Post Plan...There is no need for expensive broadcast monitors and complicated setups.


See, this thread started in 2013 with Resolve 9 and you are talking almost two years later with Resolve 11.

And yes, I believe you are right. With properly calibrated high end GUI monitor, you are not likely to go wrong anymore. The Resolve 11 manual vouches for that too.
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Re: Color shift in export

PostMon Jan 05, 2015 3:19 am

Subrata Senn wrote:
Scott Stacy wrote:When "Data" mode is set as output on the deliver tab (using PR 422 HQ), clips looks richer in saturation, more contrasty, and with deeper blacks even when viewed on an sRGB cinema display or on Vimeo (after using x.264 compression). I would think that when grading for sRGB color space on a monitor set at 709, you would set your Resolve output to "Video" based on my understanding of what's stated in the manual. However, clips graded in "Data" mode and outputted in "Video" mode look a little washed out, with less saturation, and less contrast.

Anyone have any thoughts about this. Kinda puzzled about what output settings to use on the deliver page. I have thought the "Data" mode on the deliver page was reserved for 10 bit viewing, but perhaps I am wrong.


I always find that "Data" mode gives more accurate result. Prores 4444 output in data mode is almost identical to what I see in Resolve. Hence for QT needs I always output in Prores 4444 from Resolve (in "data" mode) and then go for other Prores conversions through Compressor 4.0. Gives me better results.

jong joug wrote:Since we're not supposed to edit posts I'll give U a short answer.

If you are on a Stay Lean Post Plan...There is no need for expensive broadcast monitors and complicated setups.


See, this thread started in 2013 with Resolve 9 and you are talking almost two years later with Resolve 11.

And yes, I believe you are right. With properly calibrated high end GUI monitor, you are not likely to go wrong anymore. The Resolve 11 manual vouches for that too.


Thanks for responding!

It's still a puzzling conversation over on Lift, Gamma, Gain! I shoot raw, have a 10bit grading monitor (set to Rec. 709 color space), and find that outputting in video mode looks pretty washed out.
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Re: Color shift in export

PostMon Jan 05, 2015 6:01 pm

Scott Stacy wrote:It's still a puzzling conversation


"Data Levels" vs. "Linear Video" should not be puzzling or confusing at all... if you are looking at a numerical analysis rather than eyeballing the levels. When the observation is that it "looks a little washed out" or "contrasty and saturated"... I can guarantee there is no scope in use.

In 10-bit space, the 0-100% envelope that would define the "black" and "white" absolute limits can be defined in two ways. In non-709 RGB source media, it is correct to set the scaling to "Data", which assigns "0" black (for simplicity of explanation) to a lower threshold of "0" and 100% "white" to "1023." If you examine the render options in the Delivery page, you will see that range expressed as 4-1019, as there are bits reserved for other purposes.

HD Rec709 is scaled 0-100% from values 64-940. Think about what your image would look like if you are viewing one display scaling being interpreted (incorrectly) as the other. If you assigned "black" to be "0", but it is being displayed as "64"... it will appear to be "washed out", or conversely, if "64" is being pushed down to "0", then clipped and/or too contrasty. This also affects the apparent saturation.

This is not a mystery at all. Display Profiles, I agree, are a total mess -- unfortunately every manufacturer thinks they are the smartest dude in the room and to hell with standards, especially those old dinosaurs at SMPTE, ITU, CCIR, and so on, and their calcified approach to display conformity. Other than the obvious result that things used to "just work", and now they don't.

Its also sort of unfortunate that BMD didn't directly address the non-support of color management in the GUI sooner -- although the experience that Apple had with the introduction of their rebranded "COLOR" offering (formerly Silicon Color FinalTouch) should have forewarned them that there would be a stampede of users utterly dedicated to not employing conventionally-calibrated platforms. Apparently there is now a way to force a graphics display to emulate a reference monitor, but it still seems like a bad idea. Pretty easy to match the corners of RGB space, but the reality still comes down to the illuminant/phosphor emissivity characteristics of the monitor class throughout the entire gamut. Canada Dry Ginger Ale in a Dom bottle looks the same, but... it ain't even prosecco. *pop* Happy New Year everyone!

jPo
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