Blackmagic Forum

I recently bought the Atomos Sumo 19 monitor. I was excited given the great experience I've had with my Ninja Inferno. I am using the Sumo as a means of color grading with Resolve.

I bought the UltraStudio HD Mini device to connect my Sumo to my iMac Pro. Before that, I wrote to Atomos to verify that I could use UltraStudio to connect Resolve to my Sumo. They said yes. For some reason, Resolve does not "see" my Sumo monitor?

Does anyone have a successful experience using Sumo with their Mac?

Did you install the Blackmagic Desktop Video software?

Yes, I have. When I launch it, it doesn't see the UltraStudio.

But, I've been thinking that maybe I need to use a USB to Thunderbolt connection. At the moment, I connected my iMac to the UltraStudio using a Thunderbolt to Thunderbolt cable. In the manual itself, it shows the UltraStudio HD Mini as an example. So, I know I have the right device.

What do you think? Does the USB to Thunderbolt connection make sense?

Todd Groves wrote:Yes, I have. When I launch it, it doesn't see the UltraStudio.

But, I've been thinking that maybe I need to use a USB to Thunderbolt connection. At the moment, I connected my iMac to the UltraStudio using a Thunderbolt to Thunderbolt cable. In the manual itself, it shows the UltraStudio HD Mini as an example. So, I know I have the right device.

What do you think? Does the USB to Thunderbolt connection make sense?

I don't think you should connect it USB to TB...
When you say Resolve "doesn't see" you mean in Preferences - Hardware Configuration?

And I assume you did restart after installing.

Are you sure your cable is TB3? its easily mistaken with USB-C...

Oops. I am using USB-C. So, I have to pick up a TB3 to TB3 cable. That would probably explain why Resolve is not seeing it in the Video and Audio I/O settings.

I'll check back after I hook it up with a TB3 cable.

Todd Groves wrote:Oops. I am using USB-C. So, I have to pick up a TB3 to TB3 cable. That would probably explain why Resolve is not seeing it in the Video and Audio I/O settings.

I'll check back after I hook it up with a TB3 cable.

Yup.. that's the cause.

this one is a good bargain and works in your setup.
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1256281-REG/startech_4386685_thunderbolt_3_20gbps_usb_c.html

Thanks, Hector. I will grab that one.

I just started using the SUMO as a grading monitor. So far I love it. The only thing that I wish was different: Auto scaling. You have to go into settings and choose either upscale or downscale.

Aaron,
What is the purpose of upscaling or downscaling? I'm new to all this.

It's more a property of the Decklink, but for example: Your timeline is UHD, and since the SUMO is HD it shows a crop of the image. You can easily switch the settings to downscale. Really the only time I've had to go back and switch it to upscale is with 720 footage (which is rare).

Thanks, Aaron.

Waiting for my TB3 cable to arrive.

Bad news....still not working.

When I launch the Desktop Video app, it still doesn't see my Sumo despite the fact that I now have it hooked up to my computer with the proper TB3 cable (40GB/s).

Any ideas? I'm at a loss.

Is this a true 10 bit monitor?

Yes, it’s 10-bit. Which is why a cable with a high data rate is needed. Although I don’t know why my setup isn’t working...yet.

Todd Groves wrote:Bad news....still not working.

When I launch the Desktop Video app, it still doesn't see my Sumo despite the fact that I now have it hooked up to my computer with the proper TB3 cable (40GB/s).

Any ideas? I'm at a loss.

You mean you hooked up the Ultrastudio with a TB3 cable.. right?
And its still not recognized by Desktop Video or Resolve?

Maybe worth a re-instal,

Also, you should maybe open a support inquiry with BMD on this.

Yep. I reinstalled the latest version (10.9.11) of Desktop Video. Still nothing.

Is there an HDMI cable someone can recommend?

Although I am using a high speed HDMI cable at the moment. But, you never know.

Todd Groves wrote:Yep. I reinstalled the latest version (10.9.11) of Desktop Video. Still nothing.

Is there an HDMI cable someone can recommend?

Although I am using a high speed HDMI cable at the moment. But, you never know.

Regardless of the HDMI or the Sumo being connected
Desktop Video/Resolve should recognize your Ultrastudio.
Do you have a BlackMagic Design preference in your System Preferences?

The "Blackmagic Desktop Video" launcher shows in my System Preferences. Other than that, I don't see any other reference to Blackmagic. Where would I look for Blackmagic Design preferences?

SUCCESS!!!

Blackmagic support got back to me. I needed to go to System Preferences > Security & Privacy within a half hour of installing the Desktop software. So, I uninstalled and reinstalled the software, restarted, and sure enough...I went to System Preferences and clicked on "Allow".

Now I can see my work from Resolve in my Sumo monitor. I LOVE IT!! The clouds parted and the angels sang.

Thanks everyone for your help.

One more thing...I need to find something to raise my Sumo monitor on my desk so that its closer to eye level. Can anyone recommend a stand?

Thanks, Hector and everyone for your help. I'm a happy camper, now.

Todd Groves wrote:Thanks, Hector and everyone for your help. I'm a happy camper, now.

You're welcome.

Interesting.. Must be a quirk in Apple's new OS (i'm one back)

On a side note. I don't think the Sumo comes with accurate factory calibration.
It can take 3D Luts and I believe can be calibrated.
I'd have it at least measured before I trusted it with 709 color work.

Aaron Green wrote:It's more a property of the Decklink, but for example: Your timeline is UHD, and since the SUMO is HD it shows a crop of the image. You can easily switch the settings to downscale. Really the only time I've had to go back and switch it to upscale is with 720 footage (which is rare).

Interesting - I use the smaller Inferno (also HD nativly), but it accepts the ful UHD signal from SDI and displays the whole frame. I can downscale do HD (which I did recently), but don't have to.

And indeed - compared to my main 49" Samsung TV, the AtomHDR on the Inferno is much more capable HDR monitor! Where on the Samsung the super-brights are already washed out of details, they aare still clearly visible on the little Inferno. No wonder: it's rated 1,500 nits vs. just 1,000 nits of the Samsung, plus it's smaller which helps with contrast.

The Sumo is larger, and only rated 1,200 nits so I doubt it it would be a worthwhile investment for me, unless I also use it as a field monitor/recorder (just like I use my Inferno)...

Piotr

Do you still recommend the Sumo for grading with Resolve ?

Now looking at my Sumo 19, I too see no cropping with my 4K (UHD) footage.

mooovy wrote:Do you still recommend the Sumo for grading with Resolve ?

If it's me who you're asking - I cannot recommend it really,as I never tried. On the other hand however - I did try its smaller brother, the 1,500 nits Shogun Inferno - and HDR grading can be done with it with much grater brightness and color saturation fidelity than on my 1,000 nits Samsung SUHD. Of course due to it very small size, using it alone would be very uncomfortable - but as an additional monitor to the main, 49" Samsung it's just great!

With the above in mind logic dictates that with the Sumo being 19" (albeit slightly less bright, at its 1,300 nits rating) it could be a good enough HDR grading monitor on its own. Especially considering the crazy price tags of proper broadcast reference monitors from Sony etc. (which in spite of this pricing are HD only). But still, one must remember it would be a compromise solution - yet those compromises are in my opinion fully over-weighted when you remember the Sumo, like the Shogun, offer the second area of application where they really shine: being recording devices, they double as field monitors for using with all cameras - from the GH5 all the way to FS7 - as none of these cameras offer the highest quality Cinema DNG, Prores or DNxHR. So - short answer to your question is definitely "Yes", IMHO

Piotr

I own the Atomos SUMO 19. It's part of my gear as a DIT, together with OSEE XMC240/10-bit monitor.

Professional colorists and scientists I have spoken about using the Atomos SUMO19 or SUMO M for color grading in post, have told me that the monitor is not designed for color grading HDR master, including HLG. It's a production monitor. Period. This has been confirmed to me by Atomos' representative by email. However, it can be used for color grading under Rec.709 color space.

"MysteryBox has an extensive article about the pros and cons of using the SUMO and Ninja Inferno for HDR grading. Here is an excerpt from the article about the main catch:

"Perhaps the biggest catch with the Atomos displays is that both the Sumo and the Ninja Inferno use 8 bit panels, and use Frame Rate Control (FRC) to extend the range to an ‘effective’ 10 bits / channel. FRC essentially rapidly flips between two color values at the subpixel level to dither the effective middle ground color. It works, sort of - it’s better than an 8 bit display, but not as clean as a true 10 bit panel. In the test footage we were using we saw banding in the gradients, especially in the lower mids and darks."

Full article: https://www.mysterybox.us/blog/2017/12/ ... os-sumo-19

FRC is not that important here. There are definitely more important features.

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:FRC is not that important here. There are definitely more important features.

Being a fact that the Sumo is an 8-bit panel and that the specifications of HDR minimum bit depth are 10-bit in any of its flavors, could you specify the other features that make the monitor useable for HDR mastering in postproduction? That would be very helpful to this thread.

Black level, peak level, contrast, gamma/PQ tracking, accuracy, color space coverage, size. Fact that you may see banding is for me less important than any of those features. I rather have 8bit very accurate panel than 10bit one which is not very accurate. FRC is quite effective, so banding will be visible only in some specific cases.

Small panels are way easier to manufacture, but they're also "small", so interest in them is not very big, specially for grading. Try to judge keying etc on UHD 17inch panel.

As far as those monitors are great value for money they are also full of compromises with size being one of the most important of them.

Very true. My Inferno bit depth is also 8+2, but I have yet to see any 'false' banding. The brightness/contrast is its greatest virtue; the size - the greatest disadvantage (in fact, I cannot even imagine grading with it alone; my 49" SUHD is more for overall control while the Inferno - just for checking brightness extremes.

I guess the 19" Sumo could be still better than the Inferno, but don't have spare cash to buy one just for trying (and renting one here in Poland is not an easy thing)... So I'm gonna save money untill the moment comes in some 2-3 years when I can find the best of both world (my Samsung size and my Inferno's 1,500 nits as a minimum).

Piotr

Willian Aleman wrote:

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:FRC is not that important here. There are definitely more important features.

Being a fact that the Sumo is an 8-bit panel and that the specifications of HDR minimum bit depth are 10-bit in any of its flavors, could you specify the other features that make the monitor useable for HDR mastering in postproduction? That would be very helpful to this thread.

According to Atomos, Sumo is a 10-bit monitor. So....I'll go with what Atomos says. I own the Sumo 19 with recording. I love it. It's worth it.

Yes, because 8bit+FRC is treated as 10bit and many companies use same "naming".
Go to spec page and there it says quite clearly:
"Bit depth 10-bit (8+2 FRC)"

8bit+FRC is definitely "better" than 8bit, but in the same time it's not the same as "real" 10bit panel. It still doesn't stop monitor to be a "good product".

Ok, I see. Thanks.

Thanks to everybody contributing to this thread.

After receiving the honest response from the monitor manufacturer about the SUMO 19 being designed for production and not for HDR mastering, I have decided to follow the manufacture words and use the monitor to the maximum for the purpose it has been made. It’s a great production monitor. However, nobody is going to stop using it in post just as nobody can be stopped to use a computer monitor calibrated in sRGB to delivery content in other color spaces besides the web, computer or mobil devices.

As I have said before on this thread, I own the SUMO 19 monitor/recorder. On occasions I have been using two of them on-set. I use it with satisfaction as a recorder for dailies parallel to the in-camera raw format or codec recording. As a DIT, no more static transcoding on-set. I do it live if the production allows it.

I can say that apart from the monitor having an extreme reflective screen, it does a terrific job on-set. Furthermore, when switching the monitor to HDR, it has been helpful on-set to some DoPs and to myself to see and know that they can go 2.5 + stop above Rec.709 in scenes with higher contrast ratios. The fact that the monitor doesn’t qualify for HDR mastering doesn’t mean it’s not an excellent monitor when used for the right purpose it has been made.

Furthermore, using the monitor for the wrong purpose is not only going to give us a faulty result but also would give the manufacturer an undeserved poor reputation.

Regarding the monitor being 10-bit panel: No. it’s not a true 10-bit panel, and this makes a difference in HDR mastering beside the other advantages the monitor offers. It’s a 10-bit (8+2 FRC): Frame Rate Control.
There is no need to wonder why a monitor manufacturer like Flanders Scientific, one of the most used monitor on-set and in post for Rec.709 and DCI-P3 deliveries, has not come yet with a true 10-bit monitor at 1000 nit. The most used 1000 nit monitor for HDR mastering today in post is the Sony BVM-X300 at a list price of $US40,000. Go figure.

It's not 10bit which makes Sony BVM so expensive, but size and fact it's OLED RGB (not RGBW as far as I understand) panel. They struggle to make it bigger keeping all other parameters. Sony could easily make 19inch version, but would it really be so popular? It still would have to cost eg. 15K$+.

10bit is not the main issue or costs driver for those reference monitors.

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:It's not 10bit which makes Sony BVM so expensive, but size and fact it's OLED RGB (not RGBW as far as I understand) panel. They struggle to make it bigger keeping all other parameters. Sony could easily make 19inch version, but would it really be so popular? It still would have to cost eg. 15K$+.

10bit is not the main issue or costs driver for those reference monitors.

I agree with you on this. However, 10-bit is the minimum bit depth required for HDR by SMPTE specifications. This includes the closer compatible dynamic range to Rec.709: HDR/HLG

Ideally 12bit is needed for HDR, but we have no such a monitors and have to live with it.
For pure preview needs you can also live with 8bit+FRC if you need to and understand that you may occasionally see banding.

Sorry to dig up an old topic, but looking at using my Inferno (the HDMI Ninja version) with the UltraStudio Mini Monitor for a cheap way of looking at HDR output from Resolve.

I see people are saying the Shogun and Sumo work over SDI - anyone got it working over HDMI?

I've found references online to someone saying the Ninja Inferno won't accept the HDMI signal from the UltraStudio Mini Monitor (which is odd, no?) So I'm a bit apprehensive to go and buy the UltraStudio if it doesn't work.

Thanks

Richard Wait wrote:I see people are saying the Shogun and Sumo work over SDI - anyone got it working over HDMI?

The 4K mini monitor works, but I would ignore the metadata coming from Resolve and set the right HDR options manually on the screen.

Bump.

I have an opportunity to buy a second hand Sumo for £1k. I can't spring for a Small HD Cine 24 so am quite tempted. I'm in the process of upgrading my home office. I'll be using a 27" 2160p monitor for my main screen and planned to use the Sumo through my ultrastudio mini 4k. I know it's 8+2 and this will be fine for my needs.

However my 2160p doesn't arrive for another few weeks (terrible shipping times to the UK at the moment, thanks brexit/covid) and I'm wondering if I just hook up the Sumo for now as my main GUI over HDMI for a month rather than buy a stop gap monitor. I don't want 3 monitors (including Sumo) and I don't want to have to sell a second hand monitor (or spend the extra few hundred).

I wanted to check that A. it would work (If I run an HDMI from my GPU to the Sumo) and B. it wouldn't fry the Sumo screen if it was running GUI stuff like Resolve / mail / chrome etc 10+hours a day for a month / wouldn't bring about ghosting/screen burn etc)?

Hello Edward,

The Sumo would take any signal you send through the HDMI Input. However, this monitor has been made as a production monitor, where images are in constant changes over 10 hours per productions day.

I won't recommend using the monitor as a GUI if you are going to have static images for long periods of time, not to judge HDR image quality for delivering master content.

The lack of manual pre and post calibration the Atomos' monitors family has, —including the new, Neons family— makes this monitor impossible to perceptually match your hero display or any other monitor in the room. In addition, Atomos doesn't allow calibrating their monitors with a third party application, like Calman or LightSpace, the two mayor calibration players in the industry.

for more information on the subject, please read my previous long post about the SUMO19 and how I used to use on-set.
Hope this help

Thanks Willian, I appreciate the detailed reply.

Atomos doesn't allow calibrating their monitors with a third party application

Honestly there seems a lot to be frustrated by with Atomos sometimes!

Yep, I feared that feeding it a static image wouldn't be the best - I wasn't planning on using it that way long term, just a stop gap of a month or so but maybe I'll look elsewhere for now.

Use them for what they were designed for and then frustration is smaller I assume.

Willian Aleman wrote:The lack of manual pre and post calibration the Atomos' monitors family has, —including the new, Neons family— makes this monitor impossible to perceptually match your hero display or any other monitor in the room. In addition, Atomos doesn't allow calibrating their monitors with a third party application, like Calman or LightSpace, the two mayor calibration players in the industry.

William, with the upgrade to allow for the Sumo 19 to be calibrated using the X-Rite would your previous opinion still be valid?

https://atomos.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/art ... ensor-NEW-