Beta largely unusable because of erroneous audio rendering

My project is pretty simple: I finished up a dual-system shoot (one using an external audio recorder), so I've put all my clips into timelines, CCed them, tidied them up with some trimming, and synced the external audio with them in each timeline. I deleted the camera-audio tracks from the timeline once I had the good audio synced.

Now I need to render out the clips and deliver them to my client, who will do the edit. But Resolve is messing up the audio entirely.

I've left some clips without any audio, on purpose. And yet when I review the rendered versions of them, there's the camera audio, despite the fact that it doesn't even exist in the timeline!

But even worse: When I check the clips that did have audio, I find that Resolve rendered the wrong audio. The high-quality audio is missing entirely, and instead the clips have the crappy camera audio.

Clearly this needs to be fixed before release.

Can you describe your rendering process in detail? The Delivery page options etc.

Sure, Peter.

The client is doing the editing, so I'm rendering out as individual clips. Each timeline contains the clips for one topic (for example, "patient procedures"). So when I render each timeline, I set a custom filename (like "patient procedure") with a unique suffix.

I make sure to render the entire timeline; you have to check this every time, since it will arbitrarily change itself to "timeline in/out" on the Delivery page.

Any other parameters you're interested in?

When you render individual clips, you don't get timeline audio. There have been a number of discussions here on the matter.

You need to render sections of synced timeline A/V as single files, as required, rather than as individual files.

Thanks John, but that's grossly defective in many ways. That would hardly be acceptable for Resolve's traditional role, let alone for a product that aspires to be an NLE (and every other thing). I hardly know where to begin in condemning this glaringly erroneous behavior.

I noted the following in another poster's question about the same defect in version 11 (in 2014!).

I can't believe that someone in the business of writing this kind of software actually thinks this use case is viable or professional. It is indefensible on logical grounds: If "individual clips" mode ignores our audio decisions, why are ANY of our decisions honored? Why are the clips rendered out trimmed then? If I take a clip and make 12 cuts in it and render it out, I'll get 12 files. That totally breaks the integrity of any "round-trip" back to the source file (not to mention that you can make the filenames totally different), so round-tripping can't be used as an excuse to reject audio.

The result here is obviously incorrect. I could have five tracks of audio along with the camera audio, and then render out my timeline... only to find that most of the audio has just magically disappeared! WTF, why was I even allowed to add it then? Why do these audio tracks show up or play on the Deliver page? Not only shouldn't they play, but they should be Xed out in brilliant yellow with a warning. And a Web link to purchase Premiere...

Maybe at the very least there should be a checkbox to “Use Timeline Audio”. Or default to use the timeline audio with a checkbox to use source audio.

And a Web link to purchase Premiere...

Can Premiere render out a timeline as individual clips?

Rendering out from Resolve as individual clips is meant for certain workflows and it is perfectly correct for those workflows, but I guess if there was a checkbox for using timeline audio instead of embedded audio then that would open it up to more workflows too. I mean, if you imagine an edited timeline with lots of overlapping video and audio clips then this might seem a strange thing to do, you'd end up with music and FX being chopped off in strange places and being duplicated several times over, but then this option wouldn't be used in those scenarios so it wouldn't really matter if it just took the audio from wherever the limits of the video clip happened to be.

In the meantime, could you not have used the roundtrip workflow where you select 'Final Cut Pro 7' from the templates, which will export out an XML with your clips and so if the client imports that XML then they will have your timeline with the audio as you had it? Though you wouldn't be able to customise the file names you could at least put them in folders by topic, which Resolve/Premiere/FCPX could then assign metadata to in order to aid with organisation. Or if you hadn't Colour Corrected them then you could export individual clips with custom names and then export an xml form the edit page. Or you could combine the two by reimporting your CCd clips with custom filenames, lay them on top of the originals and then export an XML of that.

Seems to me that what the OP wants is usually accomplished by exporting an XML or AAF and letting the host reconstruct the edit. Otherwise, as noted, you'll be getting audio fragments which have to be manually reassembled for the cut to make any sense. So what was the point?

If autonomous timeline audio clips are wanted, you *can* do it manually, from the Deliver page, one render job after another. And then sort out the mess yourself, in another application. Maybe that workflow should be automated -- but what exactly is the reason for it again?

I believe the OP is using Resolve in an enhanced assistant editor role. Sync sound, CC, trim clips to needed handles and deliver these as rendered individual clips with timeline embedded audio to the editor with structured file names. Can Resolve do this in a semi automated way?

Maybe at the very least there should be a checkbox to “Use Timeline Audio”. Or default to use the timeline audio with a checkbox to use source audio.

To add insult to injury, there is no clear distinction mentioned between the two, in Resolve's Delivery Page -- no pop-up "tool tip" explaining (warning) what will happen to all the Timeline Audio relative to the Timeline Video, upon rendering either way:

Render ○ As Individual Files ○ As Single File

~~~
Being relatively new to Resolve, I knew in my gut that my trepidation over experimental use of a that seemingly-obscure Delivery Page file rendering toggle (having no pop-up "Tool Tip" cautioning/describing the distinction between the two actions, in terms of just what these two actions will do to my painstakingly edited video with multiple pairs of stereo audio tracks I had imported from separate digital audio recorders' sound capture at a live event.

The Render ○ As Individual Files ○ As Single File selection gadget in the Delivery Page is the most spooky choice ever presented to this first-time user in Resolve so far, and I'm _still_ foggy about what each actually does upon rendering output, to the Timeline audio.

One other niggle to mention:
Visually, the two options, with their " ○ " gadget, need to be separated a bit more, to make the choice more visually clear.

IN SUMMARY
Render ○ As Individual Files ○ As Single File
...as presented in the Delivery Page GUI looks a bit convoluted, as at first glance, my brain perceives the first option to be "Render". LOL!

1. Please separate more, the presentation of the two Files Rendering options and
2. Please provide a pop-up Tool Tip that when hovering our mouse cursor over each option, a brief, yet detailed explanation is provided, relative to just what happens to audio with respect to video, in the rendered file that results, so users easily grasp the distinction between the two.
3. Provide for a default condition that renders the Timeline Audio with Timeline Video for both of the above 2 Render Options, and a user-selectable option that permits other [ e,g., Source?] Audio rendering choices as well.

Thank you.

Sent from my P00I using Tapatalk

Thanks for the replies, guys.

I believe the OP is using Resolve in an enhanced assistant editor role. Sync sound, CC, trim clips to needed handles and deliver these as rendered individual clips with timeline embedded audio to the editor with structured file names.

Exactly. Not only is FCP 7 XML janky as hell and unreliable in faithfully maintaining editing decisions, but it doesn't matter here because I'm not providing all of the full-length original files or files with matching duration or filenames. Or timelines with the separate audio files lined up.

The question about what happens if you have fragmentary audio exported with each video clip is a reasonable one, and the answer is simple: The video clips contain the audio that's parallel to them on the timeline. This is far more correct, logical, and easy to diagnose than the current totally false timeline. If the user then discovers unexpected extra audio in the files, he can simply mute the offending tracks in the Deliver timeline.

Not to mention that there should be (as any other NLE offers) an option to export the audio tracks from the timeline as separate (continuous) files. Does this really not exist? BlackMagic has no business selling Resolve as an editing system without this basic capability.

And as Peter pointed out, here in version 15 the Render Settings dialog on the Deliver page is still an inept and disorganized mess. Cleaning it up and eliminating tons of wasted user time would be pretty easy, and I provided a detailed but simple proposal to do so right here:https://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=62526

Oh, and there's another bug in this dialog that will waste hours or days of your time: If you have "unique filenames" turned on so you can render individual files with sequential numbers, and then switch over to "single file" rendering for a minute; when you come back to "individual file" mode you will find (perhaps after hours of rendering) that Resolve has inexplicably turned "unique filenames" OFF... and thus overwritten every file by using the same name over and over. Why on earth isn't "unique filenames" ON by default in "individual files" mode? In fact, if you're using a custom filename, why is "unique filenames" even an option in "individual files" mode? There's no way to stop it from overwriting EVERY FILE without it!

Is this not craven stupidity?

I ask again, can Premiere render out a timeline as individual clips? I am interested to know.

Not to mention that there should be (as any other NLE offers) an option to export the audio tracks from the timeline as separate (continuous) files. Does this really not exist? BlackMagic has no business selling Resolve as an editing system without this basic capability.

Are you referring to Final Cut Pro 7's 'Export audio to AIFFs' feature? Or just exporting an OMF? If it's the former, then what's the equivalent in Premiere as I was not aware it was possible. Not sure about Avid either. While I found this feature incredibly useful for an animation show I was working on in FCP7, I'm not sure it's something that's traditionally used in editing - audio suites, for sure, and I think Resolve should be able to export timelines as separate audio files for the purpose of supplying audio splits for example, and then it could have the option to export direct from timeline tracks so you don't have to get submixes involved. So if you are talking about what I think you are, then telling BMD they have no business selling Resolve as an editing system without it is a bit of a stretch, not to mention insulting.

And as Peter pointed out, here in version 15 the Render Settings dialog on the Deliver page is still an inept and disorganized mess. Cleaning it up and eliminating tons of wasted user time would be pretty easy, and I provided a detailed but simple proposal to do so right here:https://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=62526

While I prefer your layout, calling BMD 'inept' as you effectively have done is hardly going to inspire them to adopt your changes is it? I mean, experience combined with due care and attention (and of course, reading the manual*) will see you through any export, so although improvements can be made I wouldn't be surprised if BMD come to the conclusion that there are other priorities based simply on your tone. If someone so openly insults your work then are you going to want to make the changes they demand?

As for overwriting files, yes it's bad but I was able to get Autodesk (who are (or at least were - I ditched them years ago) far less receptive to their userbase) to fix a similar problem in Smoke without calling them stupid cowards. In fact the problem in Smoke was far worse because it would allow you to overwrite your source files without warning. I wonder what language you would have used for them?

*for some reason the manual doesn't seem to mention the bit about 'individual clips' rendering source audio and not timeline audio though

I would just add that of course you can export single (or multiple) audio tracks, either of entire timelines or with in/out points within timelines. And what the OP wants to do (as I best I understand him) can be done manually, just like you'd have to do it manually in most other NLEs (including, to the best of my recollection, Premiere).

Quite frankly, I find the idea of calling a software that is used daily on many major Hollywood productions "unusable" laughable just because one hasn't bothered to figure out how to use it the way it is designed.

No one called anyone cowards. But given several years to fix repeatedly reported fundamental problems in what should be a mature product, BMD hasn't done so. Instead, they've heaped a massive pile of half-baked functionality into a product that needed a drastic UI cleanup to begin with. So while I appreciate the civil answers and discussion from people in the forum, I really don't feel the need to mollycoddle developers or finesse my language anymore. That approach clearly hasn't worked.

Quite frankly, I find the idea of calling a software that is used daily on many major Hollywood productions "unusable" laughable just because one hasn't bothered to figure out how to use it the way it is designed.

You can see this same refrain repeated dozens or hundreds of times by apologists in every forum. It's all a variation of "You're holding it wrong." Think it through: This is a relatively tiny market of specialists. It takes hundreds of man-years to build software like this. Therefore the field is extremely limited, and the products often inept and amateurish in their UI. This shouldn't be news to anyone in the business. So "laugh" all you want, but this product is provably defective in that it shows one thing as the content to be delivered, and then delivers something wildly different. This has been pointed out very reasonably and specifically, and hasn't been fixed.

As far as whether Premiere can export individual clips for each timeline event: I don't know, but Premiere is a far better editor than Resolve. I haven't evaluated Lumetri, but it's hard to imagine that the combination of Premiere and Lumetri is worse than the current state of Resolve.

[Rohit Gupta]

The Render Individual Clips modes has two use cases as the product is designed for:

1. Round-trip back to a 3rd party NLE as an XML or AAF round-trip
2. Dailies rendering with sync'ed audio

Since you are working on #2, the audio sync needs to be done in the Media Pool. If you are attempting to sync in the timeline as a creative edit process, that's not going to work. There are many reasons for this, but one of them is the individual source clip mode render allows for rendering with handles. How do you want us to generate handles for the audio section? Also, the video is rendered 1:1 at the source frame-rate, what happens when you do a speed-change in the timeline to the video, the audio is not going to be rendered correctly if we use 1:1 from the timeline.

Oh, and there's another bug in this dialog that will waste hours or days of your time: If you have "unique filenames" turned on so you can render individual files with sequential numbers, and then switch over to "single file" rendering for a minute; when you come back to "individual file" mode you will find (perhaps after hours of rendering) that Resolve has inexplicably turned "unique filenames" OFF... and thus overwritten every file by using the same name over and over. Why on earth isn't "unique filenames" ON by default in "individual files" mode? In fact, if you're using a custom filename, why is "unique filenames" even an option in "individual files" mode? There's no way to stop it from overwriting EVERY FILE without it!

I think all of us has been caught at least once with this problem, and I agree with you: the program should automatically overwriting files in situations like this by putting .1, .2, .3 or whatever after the file name. At least that way, you could manually go in and fix that problem later. But erasing dozens (or hundreds) of files in a sequential render without a waring message... that is pretty unforgivable.

The Render Individual Clips modes has two use cases as the product is designed for:

1. Round-trip back to a 3rd party NLE as an XML or AAF round-trip
2. Dailies rendering with sync'ed audio

Since you are working on #2, the audio sync needs to be done in the Media Pool. If you are attempting to sync in the timeline as a creative edit process, that's not going to work. There are many reasons for this, but one of them is the individual source clip mode render allows for rendering with handles. How do you want us to generate handles for the audio section? Also, the video is rendered 1:1 at the source frame-rate, what happens when you do a speed-change in the timeline to the video, the audio is not going to be rendered correctly if we use 1:1 from the timeline.

thanks for clearing this up. From p219 of the 14.3 manual:

"If you’re processing dailies for a shoot that used dual-system recording, where audio is recorded to a separate device than video, you can sync the dailies in DaVinci Resolve in one of two ways. Synced clips can be output as media files with embedded audio, or output to tape, whatever your client requires."

The OP needs to actually ask whether something is possible rather than blindly assuming the blame lies with someone else. And always consult the manual.

So in other words, the OP isn't "holding it right" as he so eloquently put it.

That's the thing, and the thing so many don't seem to understand: computers do what you tell them to do, not what you want them to do.

You have to use the software (or anything else for that manner) the way it is designed to work or you simply won't get the right results. Doesn't matter if it isn't the way you would have done it, doesn't matter if it is a stupid design.

But saying that Resolve is "largely unusable " is ridiculous in light of the absolute fact that it gets used quite a lot, by quite a lot of people.

It is a bit like me buying a pair of Snap-on pliers and then calling them "unusable" because they round off bolt heads. Pliers are for grabbing and holding things. Wrenches are for turning bolts.

Besides, no software is perfect. ALL software has bugs. Beta releases especially.