Rec2020 HDR and SDR simultaneous viewing with gen 2 PCI card

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Ernest Savage

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Rec2020 HDR and SDR simultaneous viewing with gen 2 PCI card

PostTue Jun 05, 2018 9:54 pm

Hello,

Still trying to get to the bottom of this. DaVinci Resolve will let you view 2 streams of SDI, one in HDR and one in SDR. You convert your timeline and clips into 3D. One SDI stream is the left eye and one stream is the right eye.

In the Resolve Manual, there is a section on HDR. At the end of the HDR section, the manual lists several cards that are capable of producing these 2 SDI streams. And several replies to past posts point to that list of cards.

However...

The most up to date generation 2 card listed is the Decklink 4K Extreme 12G. The only documentation I can find says that the 2016 update (and later) for Desktop Video, allows the 12G to support HDR rec 2020 over HDMI.

There is no mention of SDI.

So my questions are:

1. Can the Decklink 4K Extreme 12G really output both HDR (with or without rec 2020) and SDR at the same time? How? Does it also support HDR (with or without rec 2020) over SDI? Does a later version of Desktop Video allow this? Or does the 12G spit out HDR over HDMI and SDR over SDI simultaneously?

2. The documentation clearly states that the 8K pro can do both SDI streams, but it is generation 3. Is the 8K pro backwards compatible to generation 2 pci?

I feel like the answers should be in these documents, but I can't find them:

http://documents.blackmagicdesign.com/D ... Manual.pdf

https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/produc ... s/W-DLK-34

http://documents.blackmagicdesign.com/D ... Manual.pdf

https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/media/ ... 0160418-13

Thanks.
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Peter Chamberlain

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Re: Rec2020 HDR and SDR simultaneous viewing with gen 2 PCI

PostWed Jun 06, 2018 8:18 am

The DeckLink 8K card is not yet shipping. Close but not yet.

The DeckLink 4K extreme 12G permits dual SDI out (422) as you pointed out and it also as per the 2016 update provides the HDMI metadata tag to tell the monitor downstream that there is HDR coming.

SDI is not mentioned as there is no metadata spec in SDI to say "i'm HDR"

So, its still up to you to set that up in the dual timeline mode as described in the Resolve HDR chapter.

The one thing I cant recall is what the HDMI out does in the stereo mode. Generally the HDMI matches the SDI out, but in the case of the 'sudo stereo' and mixed HDR/SDR config, i don't recall testing that.

Maybe you could explain what you are trying to achieve.
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Ernest Savage

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Re: Rec2020 HDR and SDR simultaneous viewing with gen 2 PCI

PostThu Jun 07, 2018 12:54 am

Thanks Peter.

I have 2 x 3 hour concerts. So 6 hours of edited concert footage from 7 cameras. They want HDR10, 4k blu-rays, as well as an SDR master of some kind.

So I would like to have the HDR version up on one monitor as I make a trim pass in SDR on another. Maybe even grade both simultaneously, since many shots in the same set will have the same grade, with minor tweaks.

I was planning on getting an LG OLED 2018 calibrated for HDR (HDMI in), and using a Flanders OLED for SDR (SDI in).

I’m open to any way of viewing both HDR and SDR.

If I could get 2 streams of SDI, then I was planning on getting a teranex mini (if I could confirm that it supports HDR10 rec 2020, which I have not) or the AJA Hi5-4K to convert SDI to HDMI to get into the LG.

It would be awesome to just plug in HDMI HDR straight out of the card to LG, and an SDI SDR signal to Flanders.

But you also mentioned that there is no HDR metadata over SDI. So if I set up the timeline as described in the manual, Resolve will still be able to send out a proper HDR10 signal over SDI?

I’ll have to see if LG needs that metadata, or if I can manually make it read HDR10.

I have a short turn around and it’s 6 hours of cut material. Just trying to save time.

Thanks.
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Martin Schitter

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Re: Rec2020 HDR and SDR simultaneous viewing with gen 2 PCI

PostThu Jun 07, 2018 11:11 am

the simultaneous sdr/hdr production worflow, which you are looking for, seems more or less mimicking the approach, which mistika is using for this kind of demands. they usually recommend AJA Corvid video i/o cards for this kind of parallel SDR + HDR monitoring. but this choice would only provide SDI connectivity and is furthermore incompatible with davinci resolve, because AFAIK it doesn't support output hardware from other manufacturies. but i think, it's still worth mentioning, because this particular setup became really famous as one of the most mature solutions for this specific kind of production.

although i'm quite sure, you'll be able to archive the necessary output by BMD hardware devices as well, i would be more afraid about resolves suitability. in comparison to mistika and it's very simple/minimalistic but powerful concept of multiple free configurable "display filter" pipelines resp. ouput capabilities, resolve looks quite limited and determined by hardcoded constraints in this respect. if the desired usage scenario isn't already provided as a supported usage case by it's developers, you'll be hardly able to realize the necessary customizations yourself.
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Peter Chamberlain

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Re: Rec2020 HDR and SDR simultaneous viewing with gen 2 PCI

PostThu Jun 07, 2018 11:23 am

Martin, I assume you are not familiar with the 1000s of HDR projects completed on Resolve using various workflows and with the DeckLink so Id suggest much of your comment is misplaced.

I understand you don’t favour a number of decisions we have made as is your right but please refrain from dismissing what clearly works and continues to work without your direct experience. The dual SDI mode works with Decklink and Resolve, and has done for years. The only question I can’t answer today is the HDMI out status in this mode.
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Juergen Engelke

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Re: Rec2020 HDR and SDR simultaneous viewing with gen 2 PCI

PostThu Jun 07, 2018 11:46 am

Peter,

thanks for the clarification as far as the preview of Rec2020 HDR over HDMI is concerned.

But I am struggeling when I want to output a UHD Rec2020 HDR HD10 File out of Resolve(Studio Version).
In Edius Vers. 9.x Workgroup Version I have the MP4 Encoder which is capable to output 10Bit 420 or 422
files.
What is the equivalent in Resolve ?
Thanks for an answer.

Regards
Juergen
Triple boot Win10-1809 | Resolve Studio | Decklink 4K Extreme 12G | NVIDIA GTX1080 | 20TB Video RAID | 20 logical cores | on 10Gbps Media sharing NW | 10Gbps NAS |
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Peter Chamberlain

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Re: Rec2020 HDR and SDR simultaneous viewing with gen 2 PCI

PostThu Jun 07, 2018 12:14 pm

Can u explain your struggle Juergen? I need a little more info on where your issue is.
Set up your timeline with the appropriate HDR output transform and grade.
When you render this transform is applied within the rendered file.
If you render to ProRes for example the color space and gamma from the output transform applies metadata to the clip.
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Juergen Engelke

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Re: Rec2020 HDR and SDR simultaneous viewing with gen 2 PCI

PostThu Jun 07, 2018 2:27 pm

Hi Peter,
thanks for your response.
I have a UHD BD Authoring Program which creates a HEVC File (see attachment) which is compatible with my UHD BD Player in order to display HD10/Dolby Vison on my TV.
In Edius I create a 10Bit UHD 422 MP4 File as Input to the Authoring Program.

I have noticed that there are all the fields for a proper HD10/Dolby Vision Output in Resolve.

My Problem is:Which Encoder should I use, to get a proper File including Meta Data out of Resolve ?
Attachments
Rec2020 HDR HD10 Dolby Vision File Format_marked.PNG
Rec2020 HDR HD10 Dolby Vision File Format_marked.PNG (141.32 KiB) Viewed 1836 times
Triple boot Win10-1809 | Resolve Studio | Decklink 4K Extreme 12G | NVIDIA GTX1080 | 20TB Video RAID | 20 logical cores | on 10Gbps Media sharing NW | 10Gbps NAS |
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Martin Schitter

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Re: Rec2020 HDR and SDR simultaneous viewing with gen 2 PCI

PostThu Jun 07, 2018 2:48 pm

Peter Chamberlain wrote:Martin, I assume you are not familiar with the 1000s of HDR projects completed on Resolve using various workflows and with the DeckLink so Id suggest much of your comment is misplaced.

I understand you don’t favour a number of decisions we have made as is your right but please refrain from dismissing what clearly works and continues to work without your direct experience. The dual SDI mode works with Decklink and Resolve, and has done for years. The only question I can’t answer today is the HDMI out status in this mode.


dear peter!

although we definitely do not share the same opinion in many cases, i still like and admire your very tolerant general attitude, to handle this kind of divergences -- a very rare and impressive constructive character trait! hopefully you also get, that i don't want to play just stupid provocative games, but really want to motivate and encourage those forces, which always try to improve resolve and let it become better end better...

and your are definitely right: HDR production isn't one of may main interests! i just watch its steady development as a more or less passive observer and try to learn and transpose some gathered useful insights into my much less demanding practical work. nevertheless i'm very interest in this kind of very advanced stuff, because it often touches fundamental topics of general workflow optimization and video software design. questions, which i'm indeed interested to a large extend.

i really understand, that i'm not the kind of representative voice, which should be taken very serious in this kind of debates -- but, please(!), just read this other thread again, where much more experienced colleagues already expressed very similar critics about this much more general design flaw resp. limitations of resolve:

viewtopic.php?f=21&t=69858

and in particular:

viewtopic.php?f=21&t=69858#p391637
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: Rec2020 HDR and SDR simultaneous viewing with gen 2 PCI

PostThu Jun 07, 2018 7:27 pm

Juergen Engelke wrote:Hi Peter,
thanks for your response.
I have a UHD BD Authoring Program which creates a HEVC File (see attachment) which is compatible with my UHD BD Player in order to display HD10/Dolby Vison on my TV.
In Edius I create a 10Bit UHD 422 MP4 File as Input to the Authoring Program.

I have noticed that there are all the fields for a proper HD10/Dolby Vision Output in Resolve.

My Problem is:Which Encoder should I use, to get a proper File including Meta Data out of Resolve ?


You need to use eg. x265 (through ffmpeg or GUIs like Hybrid). This will allow you to include all metadata.

There is big thread here how to do it with ffmpeg.
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Juergen Engelke

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Re: Rec2020 HDR and SDR simultaneous viewing with gen 2 PCI

PostFri Jun 08, 2018 7:46 am

Andrew,

thanks for your clarification.
I understand that for the time beeing there is not a Resolve solution.
Do you have a link for the X265 ffmpeg or Hybrid solution ?

Regards
Juergen
Triple boot Win10-1809 | Resolve Studio | Decklink 4K Extreme 12G | NVIDIA GTX1080 | 20TB Video RAID | 20 logical cores | on 10Gbps Media sharing NW | 10Gbps NAS |
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: Rec2020 HDR and SDR simultaneous viewing with gen 2 PCI

PostFri Jun 08, 2018 10:45 am

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Juergen Engelke

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Re: Rec2020 HDR and SDR simultaneous viewing with gen 2 PCI

PostFri Jun 08, 2018 2:24 pm

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:https://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=53139&start=150&hilit=hdr10+delivery

https://www.mysterybox.us/blog/2016/10/ ... vering-hdr

all what you need is to use search option and google.

Andrew,
thank you very much for your support.
I normally do my stuff with Edius and use Resolve still in learning mode.
Therefore I am not regularly in the Resolve Forum and missed the thread - sorry for that.
The mysterybox blog is excellent and specific the delivery part fills my gaps.

With Edius and my UHD BD Authoring Program I already created my first own Disc (BT2020 HD10) which plays perfect in my Panasonic DMP-UB900EGK.

The Goal now is, to find a way on how to link Resolve and my UHD BD Authoring Program.

Regards and thanks
Juergen
Triple boot Win10-1809 | Resolve Studio | Decklink 4K Extreme 12G | NVIDIA GTX1080 | 20TB Video RAID | 20 logical cores | on 10Gbps Media sharing NW | 10Gbps NAS |
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: Rec2020 HDR and SDR simultaneous viewing with gen 2 PCI

PostFri Jun 08, 2018 6:43 pm

Do you really need BD format?
You can simply have file which will play with any modern TV or BD player.
Much less hassle.
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Ernest Savage

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Re: Rec2020 HDR and SDR simultaneous viewing with gen 2 PCI

PostSat Jun 09, 2018 1:00 am

Hello All,

While I have thoroughly enjoyed the posts since the original, and learned a lot, especially from the link to the five part series on HDR, I still have some question.

Forget about HDMI for now.

I currently have the Decklink 4K Extreme (not the 12G). When following the steps starting on page 162 of the Resolve 14.3 manual, I am able to get both streams of video to play, one for each 3D eye. I also see that I'm able to apply the LUT (3D LUT > HDR ST.2084 1000 nits) as described in the manual for just the HDR stream (or eye).

I'm getting to the questions sorry.

In the specs for both the Decklink 4K Extreme and the Decklink 4K Extreme 12G, only Rec 601 and Rec 709 are listed. I'm unable to find any documentation that says either of these cards will spit out Rec 2020 (only the Decklink 8K Pro specifically lists Rec 2020), also I don't see anything that specifically states whether or not either Decklink 4K will properly spit out SMPTE 2084. Since the workflow is in the manual, and follows a discussion about viewing HDR10, I assume it's possible. Before I pay my calibrationist, I'd like to confirm.

1. Is there a difference in the two 4K cards with respect to SDI output of Rec 2020 or SMPTE 2084?

If I use my Decklink 4K Extreme (not 12G),
Split my clips and timeline into 3D,
Turn off RCM,
Assign the 3D LUT: HDR ST.2084 1000 nit to a Timeline wide node of the HDR SDI stream,

Then the HDR SDI stream coming out of the Decklink 4K Extreme (not 12g) will:

2. Allow up to Rec 2020?
3. Or up to P3?
4. Be ST.1284 1000 nit?
5. Follow the PQ - Perceptual Quantization curve?

6. If the LUT workflow doesn't achieve what I've described above, then will RCM?

If I set RCM to:

Input Color Space - ”Bypass,”
Timeline Color Space - “Rec.2020” - “ST.2084”
Output Color Space - “Rec.2020” - “ST.2084”

Then will my Decklink 4K Extreme (not 12G) HDR SDI stream:

7. Allow up to Rec 2020
8. Or up to P3?
9. Be ST.1284 1000 nit?
10. Follow the PQ - Perceptual Quantization curve?

Now time to google creating Metadata: SMPTE ST 2086, MaxFALL, MaxCLL

Thanks everyone.
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Juergen Engelke

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Re: Rec2020 HDR and SDR simultaneous viewing with gen 2 PCI

PostSat Jun 09, 2018 8:36 am

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:Do you really need BD format?
You can simply have file which will play with any modern TV or BD player.
Much less hassle.

@Andrew,

yes, I know - I started with USB Stick and Streaming Files e.g. on NAS.

@Ernest,
the Decklink 4K Extreme is for Pre-View on a Monitor or a TV not for File Output.
The Specs are very old(2016?) at that time nobody knows BT2020.
But yes the card is able to switch to BT2020 - the proof comes e.g. from Sony Catalyst suite where you
can switch Pre-View from BT709 to BT 2020 and more.
The latest Edius Version can switch Monitor Gamma Curves with 3 new Eizo Monitors CG3145/CG318-4K and CG 248-4K via USB but afaik only with AJA.
Triple boot Win10-1809 | Resolve Studio | Decklink 4K Extreme 12G | NVIDIA GTX1080 | 20TB Video RAID | 20 logical cores | on 10Gbps Media sharing NW | 10Gbps NAS |
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: Rec2020 HDR and SDR simultaneous viewing with gen 2 PCI

PostSat Jun 09, 2018 9:07 am

If you can switch your monitor manually to desired HDR mode then about any card can pass HDR signal. HDR stream from video point is nothing special- same 10/12bit data as for SDR.
Problem starts with consumer displays as most of them need HDR flagging on HDMI. Old Decklink won't trigger HDR mode in your TV when connected over HDMI, only newer ones will do. In this case you need some another box to inject metadata. This can be eg. AJA SDI-HDMI converter or on of the HDfury boxes.

The way how GV implemented auto switching monitor to desired mode is bit fancy. It's very specific approach, which uses USB cable and sends some special signal over it. This is not universal way as not all monitors can be controlled over USB (probably only few). They should rather add HDR flagging on HDMI like all other NLEs do and how it should be done.
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Ernest Savage

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Re: Rec2020 HDR and SDR simultaneous viewing with gen 2 PCI

PostSat Jun 09, 2018 9:01 pm

Thanks Andrew and Juergen,

I thought it was possible, but without any actual documentation, I wasn't sure. Especially since the 8K Decklink specifically states Rec2020 and it's only SDI. Also, some articles are even talking about replacing BNC for HDR.

So I'll grab this HD Fury Integral:

https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id= ... pcQAvD_BwE

This LG OLED 2018 C:

https://www.ebuyusa.com/prodinfo.phtml? ... cIQAvD_BwE

Get calibrated and hope I get close to at least P3.

How are people measuring MaxFall averages without a pro monitor? Scopebox or something?

Thanks again!
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: Rec2020 HDR and SDR simultaneous viewing with gen 2 PCI

PostSat Jun 09, 2018 10:22 pm

You need a tool which can measure it. I know eg. Scratch does it, Transkoder, MTI Cortex.
Not sure if there is any cheap or open source tool for it.
There is this, but no idea if it's accurate and it's TIFF limited:
https://github.com/HDRWCG/HDRStaticMetadata

Cheapest validated (I assume) option may be this:
https://hdr.avtop.com/hdr_solutions_avtop

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