Edit Page: Still no Ease Out/Ease In Position keyframes?

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Hendrik Proosa

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Re: Edit Page: Still no Ease Out/Ease In Position keyframes?

PostThu May 07, 2020 6:09 am

George Deierling wrote:A 3D movement has 4 dimensions, position and time. It is challenging to make that real simple and easy to control with curve graphs. Fusion has a path/time curve - but its not really simple to use. Let's hope BM comes up with something ingenious.

That ingenious way is to do it like everyone else, including Fusion, has been doing for decades: each parameter has separate value-time curve. 3D position has 3 parameters, one for each dimension. So do euler rotations. Quaternions have four... If it is good enough in hollywood to make these big dinosaurs and robots move in cinema it is good enough to animate a flying layer of video.

It is usually made easier for user by moving the curve handles automatically to some position which makes interpolation appear smooth when user sets a keyframe to be smooth or auto or whatever name the software at hand uses. Ease in/out simply means that one side of keyframe looks at previous/next keyframe with its handle and another handle is scaled so that curve is smooth between the keyframes. How to calculate bezier handle positions for parametric smoothing is an area researched to death.
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aglyons

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Re: Edit Page: Still no Ease Out/Ease In Position keyframes?

PostTue Aug 11, 2020 5:33 pm

Posting another example of the downright non-working way Resolve implements easing.

I have a text layer over video footage that I am easing from the bottom up into position.

easing.jpg
Easing that doesn't work
easing.jpg (77.88 KiB) Viewed 256 times


You can see (or barely see as thin dark blue lines on a black background don't always work for clarity) that there is easing applied to the start keyframe and ending keyframes.

But to my eyes, there ain't no easing going on at all!



BMD, I beg of you. Please please please figure out how to fix this big huge glaring issue that has been present since the beginning of time!!
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aglyons

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Re: Edit Page: Still no Ease Out/Ease In Position keyframes?

PostTue Aug 11, 2020 5:35 pm

Everyone that this affects, keep posting on this thread new examples or comments so that it keeps popping up to the top of the list. The more chatter there is on this topic the better chance we have of getting it seen to.
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ozherelev

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Re: Edit Page: Still no Ease Out/Ease In Position keyframes?

PostWed Aug 12, 2020 9:08 am

Same issue on my Mac
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Re: Edit Page: Still no Ease Out/Ease In Position keyframes?

PostMon Aug 17, 2020 1:22 am

I have been requesting a fix for this bug for over ten years!
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Re: Edit Page: Still no Ease Out/Ease In Position keyframes?

PostMon Aug 17, 2020 9:26 am

To me the solution to this problem seems simple. At least, simple to describe and imagine; whether simple to implement, I don't know.

Fusion has a fantastic Spline Editor. Fusion is integrated in Resolve. Resolve should use Fusion's Spline Editor!

So, the user would set keyframes via the Inspector as now. And the keyframes shown directly on the video layer could also remain as a simple visualisation. But somewhere, either on the layer or in the Inspector or both, should be a button to "Open Spline Editor" (or call it "Keyframe Editor" if it needs a simpler name for Resolve.)

This would open Fusion's Spline Editor in a floating frame - something Resolve is already capable of doing today (albeit currently hidden from the user). It would look something like this:
Image

This would allow precise and sophisticated control of keyframes, far beyond what is currently possible in Resolve. I realise there'd be some work involved in making this work for Resolve, but the fundamental technology and UI already exist and are proven to work well, so I do hope it will one day be fully utilised across the software.

Actually If I'm being optimistic, I'd wonder if in fact this is why these basic keyframe bugs have existed in Resolve for so long: because it's on the roadmap to re-do the whole system, using Fusion's technology. Resolve 15 saw the introduction of Fusion in Resolve; Resolve 16 saw the unification of the Resolve and Fusion UIs (for better or worse). Could Resolve 17 see the power of Fusion more fully integrated into and utilised in Resolve?
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aglyons

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Re: Edit Page: Still no Ease Out/Ease In Position keyframes?

PostMon Aug 17, 2020 11:58 am

I don't know about you but if they told us that was the plan I'd be a heck of a lot happier. Just knowing that this is on their radar and that they are working on bringing a new UI for it in version X would go a long way with me.

The silence is deafening......
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Re: Edit Page: Still no Ease Out/Ease In Position keyframes?

PostMon Aug 17, 2020 12:08 pm

aglyons wrote:I don't know about you but if they told us that was the plan I'd be a heck of a lot happier. Just knowing that this is on their radar and that they are working on bringing a new UI for it in version X would go a long way with me.

The silence is deafening......
Yeah.

I do understand why a company might want to keep quiet, because development plans can and do change, problems can occur at any time, and as soon as you've declared you're going to do X, everyone expects X, and probably X+2 as well.

But many companies publish roadmaps and keep public issue/bug trackers, and BMD's complete silence is not a good look. A single line such as "We're aware of the issue and hope to address it in the future" wouldn't pin them to any firm promise, but would go a long way to mitigate the concerns and annoyance of users. As you say, people are a lot more understanding when they know where they stand.

Especially with a really important and fundamental problem like this. It's not a good look for an NLE to not be able to do keyframe easing, and for the issue to persist for such a long time.
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Re: Edit Page: Still no Ease Out/Ease In Position keyframes?

PostMon Aug 17, 2020 12:39 pm

TheBloke wrote:To me the solution to this problem seems simple.


Mine is simpler, I think.

Forget splines on the Edit page. They work fine on Fusion.

Right click on the keyframe in the Inspector, select one of four options, it works!

Very simple.

We had this in one of the 16 betas. Then someone complained that still didn't work with splines, and it got broke again. :(
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aglyons

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Re: Edit Page: Still no Ease Out/Ease In Position keyframes?

PostMon Aug 17, 2020 12:54 pm

Yes, everything works great in fusion. Fine, but we shouldn't have to create a custom comp to do a simple title mograph. You don't have to do an entire AE comp for a simple mograph title in premiere. Why here?
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TheBloke

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Re: Edit Page: Still no Ease Out/Ease In Position keyframes?

PostMon Aug 17, 2020 1:51 pm

Jim Simon wrote:Mine is simpler, I think.

Forget splines on the Edit page. They work fine on Fusion.

Right click on the keyframe in the Inspector, select one of four options, it works!

Very simple.
Yes that's simpler. And it'd be much better than we have now, and the bare minimum that I feel software like this should have. But I think they could do better than that, and the key thing is that I don't think it would be much more work.

Once the timeline supports bezier keyframes, it's surely a small step to support handles, and another small step from there to have it visualised in the Fusion Spline Editor, which already exists in the software and is stable, well tested, documented, and has a number of excellent usability features, like auto looping, the Shape Box, and more.

On top of which this would add some badly-needed consistency between the pages. Right now there's literally four separate keyframe systems across four different pages: Edit, Fusion, Color, Fairlight all having slightly different systems and very different UIs for automation. Unifying the UI for Edit and Fusion keyframes would be one step to improving that and reducing confusion and learning overhead. Plus if they did it right it should also allow copying splines in-between Fusion and Edit, which is bound to come in useful.
aglyons wrote:Yes, everything works great in fusion. Fine, but we shouldn't have to create a custom comp to do a simple title mograph. You don't have to do an entire AE comp for a simple mograph title in premiere. Why here?
Yeah I agree. I've had this come up a lot working on my first Resolve + Fusion project: situations where it feels I can almost do what I want in Edit, but not quite, so I need to add another Fusion composition and then spend a lot of time going back and forth between the two pages.

I love Fusion and greatly enjoy using it. But for simple tasks it shouldn't be necessary to create a Fusion comp for everything. Going into Fusion takes you away from the timeline you've been editing and are now very familiar with, and it takes you away from your audio and audio waveforms, which has been a constant gripe for me. I often want to time things to audio, and as a result find myself going back and forth between Edit and Fusion literally dozens of times an hour. It doesn't make for a smooth and speedy editing process.

My hopes for future versions is that the Fusion integration becomes even tighter. The spline editor on the Edit page is one example, and it could go much further: more Fusion nodes like Text+ nodes that can be added directly from Edit; the ability to go into any Fusion comp and right-click on any node and "Export Controls to Edit", adding its controls to the Edit page's inspector - as is already possible with pre-built macro-based Fusion generators, but available dynamically on any node in any comp. And more I could list, but this is OT for this thread so I'll save that for another post :)
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Re: Edit Page: Still no Ease Out/Ease In Position keyframes?

PostMon Aug 17, 2020 2:15 pm

TheBloke wrote:My hopes for future versions is that the Fusion integration becomes even tighter.


What I think you're arguing for is one enormous interface, which might suit folks who do "everything". But what about the rest?

I gather the Cut page was created for people for whom Edit is needlessly complex. If they add all that Fusion stuff to Edit, then what? A new Edit page, for narrative editors who don't want the distractions of Fusion, which they don't touch from one year to the next?

I don't know what the answer is. Maybe all-brain ur-software is the future. But it's too easy to imagine some kind of Microsoft mush. And then of course people begging for disintegration ("why can't we have a lite version")?
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Re: Edit Page: Still no Ease Out/Ease In Position keyframes?

PostMon Aug 17, 2020 3:18 pm

John Paines wrote:What I think you're arguing for is one enormous interface, which might suit folks who do "everything". But what about the rest?
Well, I didn't say that. I'm not the biggest fan of the page system, but I don't anticipate BMD will ever do away with it, and I'm fine working within it for the most part.

It's totally fine to have separated pages for separated tasks when those tasks are separate. However in my mind that does not preclude enabling situations when they are not so tightly delineated.

I gather the Cut page was created for people for whom Edit is needlessly complex. If they add all that Fusion stuff to Edit, then what? A new Edit page, for narrative editors who don't want the distractions of Fusion, which they don't touch from one year to the next?

I don't know what the answer is. Maybe all-brain ur-software is the future. But it's too easy to imagine some kind of Microsoft mush. And then of course people begging for disintegration ("why can't we have a lite version")?
I don't really follow as to what kind of interface you're picturing? Because I can't see how any of the integrations I described would bloat or confuse the interface at all.

> Fusion Spline Editor used in Edit :
Bezier keyframes are needed in Edit, I think we all agree on that? So why not use a proven interface to implement that, one that already exists, is tested and documented, and will already be familiar to some percentage of existing and future users. As opposed to adding yet another new interface that likely looks and operates slightly differently from all the others.

It doesn't even have to be thought of as the "Fusion Spline Editor" - it's a just a curve editor that understands Bezier handles, which is what Edit is sorely lacking at the moment. And as I mentioned in my first post, it doesn't have to be the only way to manage keyframes; there'd still be Inspector diamonds, which could also support simple smoothing operations as per Jim's suggestion, and there'd still be the simplified curve visible in the layer. What I propose is for the option to also pop-out a full-fat editor to float on top, for more advanced use-cases, and when doing so to re-use code that already exists and has worked well for years (decades?)

> More Fusion nodes in Edit :
This would just be some extra items in the Effects menu; don't need them, don't use them.

> The ability to export the controls of any Fusion node into Edit :
This wouldn't even be visible in the UI unless you go into Fusion and find the proposed right-click option, at which point it adds another control to the Inspector menu. And as mentioned, this is a feature that already exists in Resolve, both in the form of the Text+ control and user-created, static Generators.

What I'd like is to extend this to be available dynamically on any node, via a new right-click context menu or similar option, available on nodes in the Fusion UI. I am confident this would be really easy to implement, and it would be a vast benefit to many Fusion-based workflows, where it would significantly reduce the number of page switches required when doing things like timing Fusion effects to audio. And again it would have no effect at all on users who weren't already using Fusion. If you weren't using Fusion you wouldn't see a single thing different to today.

As for the other integrations I had in mind: I wasn't going to talk about that in this thread, but since you're discussing it here's one possibility: I could see it being very useful to allow the editing of existing Fusion compositions directly from Edit. On Edit, provide the ability to activate on a Fusion composition a small floating frame showing the composition flow. This would appear immediately, floating right there on the Edit page, allowing modifying the composition, and with the Fusion nodes displaying their controls either in a separate Inspector within the new frame, or in the main Edit page Inspector where they'd temporarily replace the Edit page controls while the Fusion frame was focused.

When working with simple Fusion comps this could provide a very quick and easy way to tweak them without leaving Edit, removing much of the need for constantly switching pages. It would not be intended for in-depth Fusion work, but when doing quick changes to existing nodes and their structure it would be much faster than going back and forth between Edit and Fusion.

And the technology to do it exists in Resolve right now; most of it at least. For the fun of it, here's a demonstration of what that could very easily look like:


Nice mock-up huh? Except.. it's not a mock-up. No Photoshop or video editing was used in the making of that. That's actually Resolve displaying a functional Fusion flow and Tools in a floating frame on the Edit page. Achieved by saving a layout in Fusion Studio and then loading it in Resolve. Resolve doesn't expect there to be random floating frames around, so it doesn't close them when you go back to Edit, and they keep working for the comp you had open when you opened that frame.

Of course it's not completely usable today. Hotkeys don't work inside the Fusion frame when it's on Edit, and it's currently a little limited because there's no way to view individual nodes in the viewer. But the fact that it works at all, and only took me 10 minutes of messing about to get going, says to me that a proper implementation would be quite possible, and probably fairly easily for BMD.

So this is the sort of stuff I'd like to see, and which I feel confident would be fairly easy to implement. And, again, none of this needs to bloat the UI or affect anyone who doesn't want to use the features. Make them available only with definite UI actions. Make them configurable, and even disabled by default if you like. It doesn't have to affect non-Fusion users in the slightest, but for those who do use Fusion it could reduce a lot of needless page switching, and greatly streamline the process. And maybe it'd even encourage some people to use Fusion effects who weren't previously.
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