Why is Fusion so buggy, twisted and difficult to use?

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kalpox

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Why is Fusion so buggy, twisted and difficult to use?

PostThu Aug 01, 2019 1:31 pm

Fusion page could be the most powerful feature in DaVinci Resolve, but instead, it's the most unstable, twisted and difficult to use one:

1. Bugs, bugs and more bugs. Tweaking options in nodes makes DR crash. Lucky you if the composition didn't corrupt

2. The f****** GPU error. If you have a "heavy" timeline with more than 8-10 short Fusion compositions you'll get GPU errors and crashes. And I don't accept excuses like "this happens with other programs too", I'm talking about Fusion compositions with just text, and I've made projects in AP+AE with TONS of VFX and animations and they worked like a charm with the same computer

3. "Text+". What the hell is that "+"? Why is there a "Text" and "Text+" in DR? This is a program, not a service I want to purchase. Why the hell there's no way to add an outline if not by repeating the Text+ node? This is so confusing!!

4. What are the negative values in the keyframes pane? Another way of create conFusion?

5. Why can I change the size of a Fusion clip in the Edit page regardless the size of the Fusion composition? This can't be more confusing!

6. Keyframes pane is the most wasted feature in Fusion page. Why is there no way to select multiple keyframes with the mouse? Why is there no way to snap the playhead, keyframes and resizing of nodes/clips? Why isn't there a toolbar with the most useful options (add, move, delete keyframes)?

7. Why is there no way to change the framerate of a Fusion composition, just when I create it? Why the frame rate is not adapted when I insert my Fusion composition in a timeline with a different framerate? For crying out loud, AE can do all this since 2005 or earlier!!!

8. Why do I have to go to the Fusion page whenever I want to change a Fusion clip? Why isn't it possible to just double-click it? Single click selects it, I have the inspector and everything, so it wouldn't be a trauma. If I have two Fusion clips in parallel in the timeline I have to f****** disable tracks to access them! :cry:

In general, I have the feeling that DaVinci Resolve in general and Fusion in particular are made by people who don't spend time editing and dealing with their options. This makes them buggy because of the lack of testing and their interfaces extremely difficult to use.
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Jim Simon

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Re: Why is Fusion so buggy, twisted and difficult to use?

PostThu Aug 01, 2019 2:50 pm

kalpox wrote:Why is there a "Text" and "Text+"


Text is the normal text tool that has existed in Resolve for a while.

Text+ is a Fusion composition newly added with the inclusion of Fusion.
Last edited by Jim Simon on Thu Aug 01, 2019 2:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Jim Simon

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Re: Why is Fusion so buggy, twisted and difficult to use?

PostThu Aug 01, 2019 2:51 pm

kalpox wrote:5. Why can I change the size of a Fusion clip in the Edit page regardless the size of the Fusion composition? This can't be more confusing!


If I understand correctly, Fusion will ignore Sizing and always uses the full resolution of the original media.
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Noel Sterrett

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Re: Why is Fusion so buggy, twisted and difficult to use?

PostThu Aug 01, 2019 4:34 pm

kalpox wrote:1. Bugs, bugs and more bugs.

I have to agree. Only one of 5 workstations will even load the standalone Fusion, and all crash/hang/cease to respond for basic functions in Resolve.

It could be great, but it isn't.

Cheers.
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Frank Engel

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Re: Why is Fusion so buggy, twisted and difficult to use?

PostThu Aug 01, 2019 6:39 pm

Fusion (standalone) WAS great up through version 9.

It is the integration with Resolve (now fighting in both directions as they are taking the Fusion UI from Resolve and trying to move it into Fusion standalone messing that up too) which is having problems.

They are fundamentally different types of programs and evidently the way they have the code tied together right now is not exactly stable.

Given time to work through the integration and deal with the bugs this could be a nice combination (except that they really need to fix the UI as it is not all that suitable for much of Fusion's user base), but as it stands they released this much too soon. It wasn't ready.
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RCModelReviews

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Re: Why is Fusion so buggy, twisted and difficult to use?

PostThu Aug 01, 2019 8:06 pm

I don't bother with Fusion in Resolve, even for light work -- I simply use VFX-connect and run Fusion 9.

Although Fusion 9 isn't perfect (it still crashes on some tracking and other operations), it is "good enough" for me (and apparently a bunch of professional movie makers).

I have to admit that I'm looking more and more at Blender (especially with the release of 2.8) these days for some of my compositing/tracking work but in meantime, Fusion 9 does me just fine.
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Re: Why is Fusion so buggy, twisted and difficult to use?

PostFri Aug 02, 2019 3:25 am

Why the hell there's no way to add an outline if not by repeating the Text+ node?

You can add an outline to Text+ with inspector on the Edit page.

1. Select "Shading" (pen) icon.
2. Set "Shading Element" to 2 and check "Enabled".
3. Set "Appearance" to "Text Outline".
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kalpox

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Re: Why is Fusion so buggy, twisted and difficult to use?

PostFri Aug 02, 2019 8:30 am

Jim Simon wrote:
kalpox wrote:5. Why can I change the size of a Fusion clip in the Edit page regardless the size of the Fusion composition? This can't be more confusing!


If I understand correctly, Fusion will ignore Sizing and always uses the full resolution of the original media.


I mean the length of the clip. There's no limit on resizing the length of the clip in Edit page, or no "marks" showing the limits of the clips. Once you start changing the length of a Fusion clip you have to do it blindly to not get black frames.
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kalpox

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Re: Why is Fusion so buggy, twisted and difficult to use?

PostFri Aug 02, 2019 8:41 am

RCModelReviews wrote:I don't bother with Fusion in Resolve, even for light work -- I simply use VFX-connect and run Fusion 9.

Although Fusion 9 isn't perfect (it still crashes on some tracking and other operations), it is "good enough" for me (and apparently a bunch of professional movie makers).

I have to admit that I'm looking more and more at Blender (especially with the release of 2.8) these days for some of my compositing/tracking work but in meantime, Fusion 9 does me just fine.


Very good point. Does it work ok and integrates with DR? I don't mind installing the standalone version, I just want a stable system.

Blender sounds good too. Is there a way to communicate with DR seamlessly? Honestly, what I liked about AE+PPro is Dynamic link, which I thought I could improve with DR+builtin Fusion.
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kalpox

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Re: Why is Fusion so buggy, twisted and difficult to use?

PostFri Aug 02, 2019 8:46 am

Atsushi Shimizu wrote:
Why the hell there's no way to add an outline if not by repeating the Text+ node?

You can add an outline to Text+ with inspector on the Edit page.

1. Select "Shading" (pen) icon.
2. Set "Shading Element" to 2 and check "Enabled".
3. Set "Appearance" to "Text Outline".


Thank you so much! Works like a charm in Fusion too. :D It would be perfect if guys in BMD just put a NAME instead of a number when they don't know how to label an option, like in Color page. "-How do we label the temperature, shadows and light menu? -Meh, just put 1/2 and that's it". Intuitive interfaces are for losers...
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kalpox

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Re: Why is Fusion so buggy, twisted and difficult to use?

PostFri Aug 02, 2019 8:51 am

THIS.

Image
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Re: Why is Fusion so buggy, twisted and difficult to use?

PostFri Aug 02, 2019 10:31 am

kalpox wrote:It would be perfect if guys in BMD just put a NAME instead of a number when they don't know how to label an option, like in Color page. "-How do we label the temperature, shadows and light menu? -Meh, just put 1/2 and that's it". Intuitive interfaces are for losers...


This is because they are all equivalent and allow you to have more than one. The default settings for each of the numbered shaders are different and you were directed to the one that would require the least amount of reconfiguration for what you were trying to do, saving you time, but you could have used any of the numbers if you had taken the time to make the settings match across them.

You should probably take some time to read through "Fusion Visual Effects with DaVinci Resolve 15", a PDF of which is available free on the Resolve Training page: https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/produc ... e/training

It explains how all of this stuff is supposed to work (and much of it does).
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kalpox

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Re: Why is Fusion so buggy, twisted and difficult to use?

PostFri Aug 02, 2019 10:55 am

This is what happens when I import any of the Fusion compositions I put in the shared bins:

Image

A zero length clip. All of them are corrupted since the last crash in Fusion. All. Of. Them. Bravo.

Stay tuned, there will be more.
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kalpox

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Re: Why is Fusion so buggy, twisted and difficult to use?

PostFri Aug 02, 2019 11:01 am

Frank Engel wrote:
kalpox wrote:It would be perfect if guys in BMD just put a NAME instead of a number when they don't know how to label an option, like in Color page. "-How do we label the temperature, shadows and light menu? -Meh, just put 1/2 and that's it". Intuitive interfaces are for losers...


This is because they are all equivalent and allow you to have more than one. The default settings for each of the numbered shaders are different and you were directed to the one that would require the least amount of reconfiguration for what you were trying to do, saving you time, but you could have used any of the numbers if you had taken the time to make the settings match across them.

You should probably take some time to read through "Fusion Visual Effects with DaVinci Resolve 15", a PDF of which is available free on the Resolve Training page: https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/produc ... e/training

It explains how all of this stuff is supposed to work (and much of it does).


Perfect. Just put a "+" button to add a new property, is way simpler, easier and more intuitive.
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Re: Why is Fusion so buggy, twisted and difficult to use?

PostFri Aug 02, 2019 11:21 am

kalpox wrote:This is what happens when I import any of the Fusion compositions I put in the shared bins:

Image

A zero length clip. All of them are corrupted since the last crash in Fusion. All. Of. Them. Bravo.

Stay tuned, there will be more.
Instead of using shared bins for fusions compositions, what I do is: after I finish a fusion comp that I want to use in other projects, I go to File > Export Fusion Composition... and save it as a file. When I need said comp, I just create a clean fusion comp from Effects Library > Generators > Fusion Composition, open the fusion tab, go to File > Import Fusion Composition... and find the file previously saved.

Works like a charm all the time.

Hope that helps.

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kalpox

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Re: Why is Fusion so buggy, twisted and difficult to use?

PostFri Aug 02, 2019 11:27 am

aldenucci wrote:
kalpox wrote:This is what happens when I import any of the Fusion compositions I put in the shared bins:

Image

A zero length clip. All of them are corrupted since the last crash in Fusion. All. Of. Them. Bravo.

Stay tuned, there will be more.
Instead of using shared bins for fusions compositions, what I do is: after I finish a fusion comp that I want to use in other projects, I go to File > Export Fusion Composition... and save it as a file. When I need said comp, I just create a clean fusion comp from Effects Library > Generators > Fusion Composition, open the fusion tab, go to File > Import Fusion Composition... and find the file previously saved.

Works like a charm all the time.

Hope that helps.

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Thanks. It's a good idea, but I just tried and it doesn't work when the composition is already corrupted (although I can see it in Fusion page). All the Fusion compositions I have are wasted...
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kalpox

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Re: Why is Fusion so buggy, twisted and difficult to use?

PostFri Aug 02, 2019 11:32 am

kalpox wrote:
aldenucci wrote:
kalpox wrote:This is what happens when I import any of the Fusion compositions I put in the shared bins:

Image

A zero length clip. All of them are corrupted since the last crash in Fusion. All. Of. Them. Bravo.

Stay tuned, there will be more.
Instead of using shared bins for fusions compositions, what I do is: after I finish a fusion comp that I want to use in other projects, I go to File > Export Fusion Composition... and save it as a file. When I need said comp, I just create a clean fusion comp from Effects Library > Generators > Fusion Composition, open the fusion tab, go to File > Import Fusion Composition... and find the file previously saved.

Works like a charm all the time.

Hope that helps.

Enviado de meu SM-G950F usando o Tapatalk


Thanks. It's a good idea, but I just tried and it doesn't work when the composition is already corrupted (although I can see it in Fusion page). All the Fusion compositions I have are wasted...


Workaround, if someone else comes across this one: just copy the nodes, create a new Fusion composition and then paste the nodes. It works, at least until the next time it gets corrupted.
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Rick van den Berg

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Re: Why is Fusion so buggy, twisted and difficult to use?

PostFri Aug 02, 2019 1:27 pm

kalpox wrote:Fusion page could be the most powerful feature in DaVinci Resolve, but instead, it's the most unstable, twisted and difficult to use one:

1. Bugs, bugs and more bugs. Tweaking options in nodes makes DR crash. Lucky you if the composition didn't corrupt

2. The f****** GPU error. If you have a "heavy" timeline with more than 8-10 short Fusion compositions you'll get GPU errors and crashes. And I don't accept excuses like "this happens with other programs too", I'm talking about Fusion compositions with just text, and I've made projects in AP+AE with TONS of VFX and animations and they worked like a charm with the same computer


2 very valid points. the rest isn't really on the top of my list.
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Jim Simon

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Re: Why is Fusion so buggy, twisted and difficult to use?

PostFri Aug 02, 2019 1:50 pm

kalpox wrote:There's no limit on resizing the length of the clip in Edit page


I find that appropriate, like titles and stills. It allows us to expand beyond the original design when necessary. Yes, it means you have to pay attention to what you're doing. But I think that's always true in editing.
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Rick van den Berg

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Re: Why is Fusion so buggy, twisted and difficult to use?

PostMon Aug 05, 2019 7:47 am

for some reason, i got the feeling that the color page ''engine'' has got much more potential. just a thought. what if all the fusion effects were available over there.
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Hendrik Proosa

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Re: Why is Fusion so buggy, twisted and difficult to use?

PostMon Aug 05, 2019 8:42 am

In my opinion, based on current, not future situation, there is a clash between real-time environment needs and compositing needs. When you try to service both in the same application and through the same engine, one or another will suffer. It is not practically possible to have anything but simple comps run in realtime or near-realtime. Resolve engine is built on the logic of pulling full frames into memory and operating on them. This is the main source of all these memory full errors. Comp on the other hand needs to get stuff done, however slow it creeps through. Speed is useless if you can't render a single frame. Nuke is a good example of this, everyone tells it is slow, yet somehow it is used for 99% of feature film compositing of any relevance. Why not use something that is fast? Because at one point you have to make a decision if you want to quickly get nothing done or slowly get done what you need. If one looks at minimum requirements for N, it is so tiny it would make gamer kids weep. But it can allow such non-existent requirements because it is designed to crawl through comps however slow, in desktops, in render farms, whereever.
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Uli Plank

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Re: Why is Fusion so buggy, twisted and difficult to use?

PostMon Aug 05, 2019 9:31 am

Rick van den Berg wrote:for some reason, i got the feeling that the color page ''engine'' has got much more potential. just a thought. what if all the fusion effects were available over there.


Fusion is much more than effects. For one, it's a true 3D environment (other than AE with its so-called 2.5D) and that can't be integrated into that engine.
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Rick van den Berg

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Re: Why is Fusion so buggy, twisted and difficult to use?

PostMon Aug 05, 2019 9:40 am

yes. i knew this was coming. but think about it.

there are so many operations possible in the color tab that one could consider as a compositing task. like layering, positioning, lens-effects, keying, light rays, displacement tools. hence, i even see scanline effects. im not even talking about third party openFX possibilities. All of them in realtime, stacked on eachother, with color grading, greenscreen keying, NR, curves, blanking, and a pitch/yaw effect just for fun. at least on my pc. just tested it again. I had 16 nodes with all kinds of effects, layering, keyframing, masking and keying going on. it's incredible. for alot of 2d animations/composites this would be more then enough. if frames would drop, which also happens right now with too much NR, just let it cache till that node. or some kind of checkbox with ''render with traditional compositing algorithms''.

only thing is, the color UI/environment is not really suited for compositing/animation tasks. not yet.

things like 3d scenes with particles would be a different story. i think. (imagine some kind of eevee equivalent, oh boy) But for 2d animation/effects, i couldnt ask for anything faster. Check out resolume software, it has similar functionalities, but more in-depth. complete different purpose ofcourse.


talking about 3d; yesterday, i tried to replace a sky by matchmoving a fairly easy HD drone shot, as a png sequence. it worked eventually, but it was such an unstable and slow process, it was sucking life out of me. i believe there is also a match-move effect in the color page.

at the moment, it is actually ''faster'', more reliable to review your fusion animation in the edit tab, by caching it in there. thats weird right? The idea of fusion in resolve to me is a price-winning concept. but it lacks stability somewhere in the very core. maybe the one on one translation to resolve is not the way to go.

I think it can be done.
Last edited by Rick van den Berg on Mon Aug 05, 2019 1:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Hendrik Proosa

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Re: Why is Fusion so buggy, twisted and difficult to use?

PostMon Aug 05, 2019 1:07 pm

Rick van den Berg wrote: I had 16 nodes with all kinds of effects, layering, keyframing, masking and keying going on. it's incredible.

I think BMD is also caught in this kind of loophole, where the same reasoning that applies to color page is converted to Fusion. Now imagine you have 200 nodes on color page. Or 500 nodes. Can you still render it, albeit slowly? 16 nodes is very light setup in comp. It isn't a question of how heavy a single node is compute wise, it is about all the stuff that must be pulled together. When you run out of gpu memory you must start shuffling things back to main ram and this will eat up quite a lot of the gpu compute speed.

There was a funny story about Mentalray render engine, which got a nickname "mental delay" because it was so slow. "RenderMan is much faster" everyone said... Somewhat irritated mentalray engineer Master Zap responded that ofcourse RenderMan is fast... until you actually trace a ray. The thing was that comparison was between apples and oranges. When apples started comparing with apples, difference diminished. Ofcourse if everyone likes oranges it makes no difference in the long run, Mentalray is now more or less dead while RenderMan lives happily.
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Rick van den Berg

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Re: Why is Fusion so buggy, twisted and difficult to use?

PostMon Aug 05, 2019 1:32 pm

500 nodes. Can you still render it, albeit slowly?
I would love to find out. but i cannot imagine a scenario of 500 nodes worse then the current fusionresolve. no way it's gonna work. my computer would probably explode.

lets say you can render 16 nodes realtime. your comp is 10 seconds long.

the algorithm needs to be genius. render in branches.
lets say branches of 16. it's all cached to your preferred network disk/ssd.

that would be 310 seconds to render all 500 nodes. all 31 cached branches merged together another 20 seconds.

not bad right. this is extremely simplified ofcourse.

in reality, i wouldnt even bother looking at fusion in resolve if the comp would have only 100 nodes, in its current stage.

20 nodes might even be too much at this moment. which is a very common, maybe even low amount. ironically, at that point the whole node based structure would come to live and shine. even the 16 nodes example would get nasty at this stage. but not in the color page. i bet i can crank it up some more there. don't forget, fusion in it's core is more then 20 years old and was never designed to be part of resolve. i would say just give it a try. i don't think bmd has got much to loose there. maybe they hit it right on the spot and beat the compitition there. but i'm not a software engineer, nor a genius. maybe they have already tried, or is it actually part of it already, who knows? guess it's easier said than done. but fact is that the color page has always existed, and has proven it's reliability inside resolve.

what is even the target audience of fusion in resolve?
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Rick van den Berg

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Re: Why is Fusion so buggy, twisted and difficult to use?

PostMon Aug 05, 2019 4:10 pm

so i put it to the test some more. 50 nodes. multiple layer mixers, keyers, external mattes etc etc. psychedelic stuff.

works like a charm, some caching between some nodes, but it's lightning fast.
the exact same effects applied in fusion.. don't want to talk about it.

i want to take it even further, but got work to do ^^. im pretty convinced. It brings back alot of fun actually.


edit; 96 correctors, 15 layer mixers, 12 external mattes, most of them 3k red raw greenscreen footage. 3d keyers applied on all of them. what im missing most are basic transform tools, spline editor, retime tools, some more generators.

almost no waiting times. wow. Not making use of this is like limiting a ferrari to 50kmh.
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Re: Why is Fusion so buggy, twisted and difficult to use?

PostMon Sep 02, 2019 4:03 pm

How's the new version update doing for you guys?

I still have a TON of glitches when trying to use Resolve with Fusion comps. For example I get mysterious glitches of different clips in one Fusion comp. It's completely random. Playing back a 2 second fusion comp with just some Luma key effect on a video clip and it shows me a frame from a different clip in the middle of the comp. Just one frame lenght and it won't go away. No explenation for it... It even shows up when I render the output to a video file. Any ideas?
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Re: Why is Fusion so buggy, twisted and difficult to use?

PostFri Apr 16, 2021 12:07 am

RCModelReviews wrote:I don't bother with Fusion in Resolve, even for light work -- I simply use VFX-connect and run Fusion 9.

Although Fusion 9 isn't perfect (it still crashes on some tracking and other operations), it is "good enough" for me (and apparently a bunch of professional movie makers).

I have to admit that I'm looking more and more at Blender (especially with the release of 2.8) these days for some of my compositing/tracking work but in meantime, Fusion 9 does me just fine.


I was thinking along those lines too, but Fusion is a dream compared to Blender. I gave up, it doesn't work at all on my computer, whereas Fusion kinda works sometimes if you wrestle it a bit and put up with jumping back and forth between Resolve and Fusion. Basic stuff works, but 3d and particles is a pain. Most software has become super intuitive, users expect that in 2021, so these arcaic video editing and especially 3d modeling/animation programs with endless bugs and 2000 pages long manuals are weird. Software for music production have become really slick, is video really that much more complicated?
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Uli Plank

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Re: Why is Fusion so buggy, twisted and difficult to use?

PostFri Apr 16, 2021 4:12 am

IMHO, Cinema4D is the most approachable 3D software.
And then, if you need particles, check out the now free standalone version of Particle Illusion. Since it can export its animations with an alpha channel, you can use them in DR.
Don't approach Resolve with your expectations from other NLEs! They are all different.
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iMac 2017 Radeon Pro 580 8 GB VRAM, 32 GB RAM
2018 Mac mini 16 GB RAM, eGFX Breakway RX 580 MacOS 10.15.7
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Hendrik Proosa

  • Posts: 1650
  • Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 6:53 am
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Re: Why is Fusion so buggy, twisted and difficult to use?

PostFri Apr 16, 2021 6:04 am

fredsvard wrote:Most software has become super intuitive, users expect that in 2021, so these arcaic video editing and especially 3d modeling/animation programs with endless bugs and 2000 pages long manuals are weird. Software for music production have become really slick, is video really that much more complicated?

There is a difference between straightforward logic and UI of software and actual tools. To me, choosing compunder, expander, composter or dopinder filters for audio is about as intuitive as choosing between Lanczos and Mitchell filter, minus vs from blend modes or reasoning over concatenation breakage is for audio engineer. There is nothing intuitive in any of this unless you have the knowledge of what it actually means and how and when to use it. Which produces those multithousand page manuals. At the moment I’m waiting for an intuitive revelation for recalculating surface normals from derivates after vertex shader application. i don’t even need an UI, I can do it in notepad. Revelation hasn’t come yet.
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