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Bug: inconsistent behavior with planar tracker corner pin

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TCP786

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Bug: inconsistent behavior with planar tracker corner pin

PostSun Sep 26, 2021 8:29 am

I've been noticing that sometimes the corner pin feature of the planar tracker cuts off my image at the edges of the corner pin region and sometimes it doesn't. I basically always have a transform node between my media and the planar tracker to resize and nudge the comped media, but sometimes I can't see the part of the comp that lies outside the corner pin. Sometimes I use the corner pin as an anchor, but actually want my media to fall slightly outside of those bounds. I haven't noticed anything that I might be doing differently in the cases that it works vs when it doesn't, but obviously one of these behaviors is a bug unless there's something I'm not aware of. Technically I don't know which of these behaviors is the one that's supposed to happen, but I feel like either could be ideal for different situations.

Here are some pictures of what I mean:
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Re: Bug: inconsistent behavior with planar tracker corner pi

PostSun Sep 26, 2021 8:37 am

Quite likely a result of Domain of Definition rather than a bug. Upload an example comp so we can check.
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Re: Bug: inconsistent behavior with planar tracker corner pi

PostSun Sep 26, 2021 7:58 pm

Here you go.
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Re: Bug: inconsistent behavior with planar tracker corner pi

PostSun Sep 26, 2021 9:00 pm

Look through your Transform node - you'll see that you're transforming the input image outside the frame. This will result in it being clipped in the Corner Pin.

Example of transforming an image outside its frame:
Image

Result in Planar Tracker Corner Pin:
Image

I thought that might be fixable by expanding the Domain of Definition, but having checked the manual and experimented, it appears it doesn't work like that. The Planar Tracker's "Clipping Mode" relates to transforms done by the Planar Tracker itself - ie if a Planar Tracker tracks off-screen, then later back on-screen, setting Clipping Mode to Domain ensures the image is not lost when it goes off-screen. But if the image is already off-screen when it arrives at the Planar Tracker, it will not be put into the Corner Pin area. That's because the Corner Pin area transforms the input frame into the rectangle you define; it does not use anything outside the input frame.

So what I'm confused about is not why the text is clipped off at the edge of the corner pin, but rather: what did you do to get the text NOT to be clipped at the edges of the corner pin area, like in your second screenshot? I cannot re-create that.

Can you make a screen recording showing the "AHIRACIONES" (or whatever it says) example, with two viewers visible. Show the input Transform through viewer 1, while viewing the Planar Tracker in viewer 2. See if you can re-create a situation where the input image apparently goes outside the defined Corner Pin area.

In general, if you want your corner pin to be over a larger or different area, then just adjust the corner pin area appropriately. You can also transform the input image to control how that input looks within the corner pin area - just make sure the input image is entirely contained within its frame when it reaches the Planar Tracker.

I'm going to put this in your other post as well, but as a quick point: remember that the corner pin area can be as large as you like, and wherever you like, so long as it's co-planar with the area you tracked. It doesn't have to exactly match the track area, and in fact could be a completely different area. So long as it's co-planar, the tracking will work.

So in your first screenshot, you would:
- Adjust the Transform node so that the text does not go outside its frame
- That will ensure all of it is visible in the corner pin area
- Now adjust the Corner Pin area to get it exactly where you want. If you want the text to be much further over on the left, where the greenery is, simply move the corner pin area to the left. Just be sure it's still co-planar with the area you tracked - but that should be straightforward given it's a flat wall.
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Re: Bug: inconsistent behavior with planar tracker corner pi

PostSun Sep 26, 2021 9:46 pm

I'm going to put this in your other post as well, but as a quick point: remember that the corner pin area can be as large as you like, and wherever you like, so long as it's co-planar with the area you tracked. It doesn't have to exactly match the track area, and in fact could be a completely different area. So long as it's co-planar, the tracking will work.


I do understand this, and have been doing this extensively when possible, but often there aren't any good points in the image to use for a larger corner pin that would actually be co-planar with the tracked surface. For example, if my first example image with the yellow wall had been shot at any more of an angle, I would likely use the four corners of the grate in the bottom right of the current corner pin, since they're pretty much the only reliable parallel/perpendicular lines; but I would still be putting the comped image onto the larger part of the wall, essentially entirely outside of the corner pinner.

I also feel like the corner pinner would greatly benefit from a feature where you could drag a line rather than a single point in such a way that you could resize the rectangle defined by the corner pin without changing the plane it already defined. Or at least if you could hold a key like shift or something while you drag a single point so that it extends the exact same line it already defined. If there's something like this that I'm not aware of, please let me know.

I'll get that screen capture for you in a sec. Thanks again.
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Re: Bug: inconsistent behavior with planar tracker corner pi

PostSun Sep 26, 2021 10:00 pm

Here's the video of the other example:
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Re: Bug: inconsistent behavior with planar tracker corner pi

PostMon Sep 27, 2021 1:52 am

Now I'm working on a matching shot, and I'm getting different behavior in each. I have a slightly different node structure for them, but I don't think I'm doing any of the transform or planar tracker tasks any differently between the two of them. Please, please, please let me know if there's any other information I can share here that could help me understand what's causing this. I'm trying as hard as I can to avoid telling my client that our production schedule needs to be adjusted, but if I can't figure out how to keep working on this by tomorrow I guess that's just how it is. Sorry to be that guy, but I've been completely blocked on this project for over a day now and I don't really have any alternatives other than starting the compositions again from scratch and simply hoping the bug doesn't pop up again. Thanks again for the help.
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Re: Bug: inconsistent behavior with planar tracker corner pi

PostMon Sep 27, 2021 7:11 am

OK it's to do with how the Planar Tracker handles lower resolution media. When the input to the Planar Tracker is a lower resolution than the Planar Tracker itself, it's able to go outside the corner pin area.

I believe what's happening is that the Planar Tracker expects the input to match its own frame size. If it's lower, it first scales it to the frame size - and this uses the full Domain of Definition, which can include areas outside the input frame. It then centres the image around the corner pin, which means if the input image is transformed outside its frame size, it will extend beyond the Corner Pin area. As in this example, with a 1920x1080 input image:

Image

That's definitely matches what's happening in your screen recording video, where the input image is 2960x631.

I don't think this is a bug, more an expected limitation or quirk. The manual indicates that the input image should be the same frame size as the Planar Tracker itself; the Resolve reference manual (page 2377) says:

If the image you are applying the tracking data to is full frame unmasked clip, you can use the Steady, Corner Pin, and Stabilize operation modes in in the Planar Tracker. (my emphasis)

A simple solution is to merge the input media over a Background (alpha=0) set to the frame size - 4096x2160 in your case. That should ensure consistent results, and I think is especially important if the input image is a different aspect ratio to the main frame size.

I believe this will also affect quality - by applying the Corner Pin at the source media resolution, I believe you're actually scaling the source media down relative to its own resolution, rather than relative to the frame size. So eg if you had 1920x1080 source media and then applied a Corner Pin that uses 10% of the screen, you end up with a 192x108 image laid over your 4096x2160 frame. Whereas if you first place it over a 4096x2160 background, then apply a 10% Corner Pin, you end up with a 409x216 image (assuming you'd also transformed the input image so it fills the corner pin area, as you do seem to be doing.)

I can't tell if this is also the problem in your latest screenshots, as I can't see the input image size in either comp, but it seems likely.

If you need further help, export a DRA (Project Manager -> right-click on project -> Export Project Archive) which will contain all the media plus a project DRP which will enable me to see everything you're working with. You'll need to upload that to a file sharing site like Dropbox or Google Drive. Prior to upload you can go into the DRA and delete any media that doesn't feature in the comp(s) in question, if that helps make it smaller to upload.

That way I can see precisely what you're doing including all the input media.
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Re: Bug: inconsistent behavior with planar tracker corner pi

PostMon Sep 27, 2021 8:11 am

In addition to Corner Pin, there's two other workflows you could try.

Firstly the Planar Transform workflow, which I note the manual seems to suggest over Corner Pin - including an example where they put graffiti on walls (albeit via Paint rather than merging an image). I showed you an example of using Planar Transform in an earlier post in the main forum.

Then there's the Steady workflow, usually used for paint but which should also work for layering an existing image, where you use two Planar Trackers - one in Steady, the other in Steady -> Invert - and in-between those you modify the image, eg with Paint or by merging something over. In your case you'd have MediaIn -> Transform -> CornerPosition -> Merge between the two PlanarTrackers:

Image

If using this workflow, make sure you do the Corner Positioner on your "Set" frame (same one you tracked from), and that the two Planar Trackers have the correct frame number for Steady Time.

So there are three possible workflows:
- Planar Tracker Corner Pin
- Corner Positioner + Planar Transform
- Planar Tracker in Steady + Corner Positioner + Planar Tracker in Steady -> Invert.

(Actually we could say there are four workflows, if we separate Planar Tracker Corner Pin (FG Only) vs Planar Tracker Corner Pin (FG over BG).)

I believe you'd want the input image to match the frame size in all three of them, so it doesn't change that. In all scenarios, I'd Merge your lower-resolution input image over an alpha=0 Background that matches the frame size.

I don't really know if there's any particular pros or cons for any of these in your current example - maybe someone with more experience can add some thoughts on that.

But in case you're still having problems, there are other options to try, and perhaps you'll find one fits your situation better than Corner Pin.
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Re: Bug: inconsistent behavior with planar tracker corner pi

PostMon Sep 27, 2021 8:21 am

This is awesome, thank you so much. I also found another possible solution/work-around which I will post in a minute - I want to see if you have any thoughts about which one might be more reliable or if there's a reason I'm not aware of that what I just tried is a bad idea. In the meantime though, why don't we have the same page 2377 of the manual?
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Re: Bug: inconsistent behavior with planar tracker corner pi

PostMon Sep 27, 2021 8:24 am

TCP786 wrote: In the meantime though, why don't we have the same page 2377 of the manual?
Ahh, you're still on 17.2.2 aren't you? I seem to remember seeing that in one of the comps you exported.

Quite possibly the manual changed between 17.2.2 and 17.3.1. You're in the right chapter there - Chapter 118 - so I guess there's been some minor changes.

Here's the full page 2377, so you can locate it if you didn't already:

Image
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Re: Bug: inconsistent behavior with planar tracker corner pi

PostMon Sep 27, 2021 8:25 am

TheBloke wrote:Firstly the Planar Transform workflow, which I note the manual seems to suggest over Corner Pin - including an example where they put graffiti on walls


Oh yeah, I remember this because it had one of the best off-handed comments I've ever seen in a software user manual:
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Re: Bug: inconsistent behavior with planar tracker corner pi

PostMon Sep 27, 2021 8:47 am

Ok, very interesting. There's actually a third workflow I've been playing with; please let me know if there is anything problematic about it that I haven't considered, or if anything about the other workflows you just mentioned is more reliable or performant than this one:

1) Use planar tracker to get tracking data.
2) Go to reference frame, switch to corner pin mode.
3) Set the corner pin to the ENTIRE frame (I know, right? What could go wrong...).
4) Route the composite media into the planar tracker as follows: MediaIn>ImagePlane3D>Render3D>Planar Tracker foreground.
5) Adjust the ImagePlane3D transform settings until it looks right.

I know you had mentioned before that the corner pin doesn't have to be the same as the tracking pattern, so long as it's co-planar to the tracked surface, but it seems like the corner pin doesn't even have to be co-planar if the composite appears co-planar on the reference frame. This feels similar to the process of correcting lens distortion before doing a composite, then adding the inverse lens distortion back afterward. All I know is that so far this seems to work, and it has the added benefit of never potentially compromising the aspect ratio of the comped image, which I think is still a possible issue with the other workflows you suggested. Let me know if you have any questions about how I'm doing this; I really don't want to start relying on this and then find out that it falls apart when I try to do something slightly different.

Also, referring to the "Steady" workflow: since I've had just about as many issues with the planar tracker as I've had successes, I feel like it's in my best interest to avoid any workflow that requires using even more planar trackers... And of course, I should also probably optimize my above workflow by getting the tracking data and putting it in a planar transform so I'm not using any planar trackers at all in my final pipeline.

But most importantly: THANK YOU SO MUCH! Your help has been invaluable for me these last couple days.
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Re: Bug: inconsistent behavior with planar tracker corner pi

PostMon Sep 27, 2021 8:51 am

Also yes, I am still on 17.2.2. I try to avoid software updates until I'm between projects. I've had too many experiences of new bugs being introduced that make my established workflows unreliable. Even if it means not having fixes for the bugs I'm struggling with, that is usually still preferable to new bugs/behaviors that I am not already aware of.
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Re: Bug: inconsistent behavior with planar tracker corner pi

PostMon Sep 27, 2021 8:55 am

Against my better judgement I updated Photoshop the other day and now my drawing tablet doesn't even work with it the way it did before (which is almost certainly a problem with the Wacom driver rather than Photoshop, but still.)
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Re: Bug: inconsistent behavior with planar tracker corner pi

PostMon Sep 27, 2021 11:45 am

Removed
Last edited by TheBloke on Mon Sep 27, 2021 2:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Bug: inconsistent behavior with planar tracker corner pi

PostMon Sep 27, 2021 1:29 pm

Haha, I was just about to download your example and investigate that, since I tested mine with a square image and it worked fine. I'll set up a new example soon so I can get a video of my workflow that doesn't have a needlessly convoluted node tree in it.
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Re: Bug: inconsistent behavior with planar tracker corner pi

PostMon Sep 27, 2021 1:30 pm

Cool. I'm just editing my post at the moment, I'll add it to the end of the thread in a few minutes.
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Re: Bug: inconsistent behavior with planar tracker corner pi

PostMon Sep 27, 2021 2:12 pm

Right, I put together a comp to compare all the different methods. And the results are.. a bit confusing.

Methods compared:

1 & 2: Planar Tracker FG only vs Planar Tracker FG over BG = identical.

3: Corner Positioner -> Planar Transform = subtly but noticeably different to 1 & 2, with the Planar Transform result looking blurrier (possibly noticeable to human eye)

4: PTra Steady -> Corner Positioner -> Planar Transform -> PTra Unsteady = almost identical to 3, but with very subtle differences, unnoticeable to the human eye. As this is very similar to 3, it would therefore be more noticeably different vs 1 & 2.

5: ImagePlane3D into PlanarTransform = I couldn't get this to match due to AR differences, discussed below. I may well be doing something wrong here, if it's working right for you.

6. ImagePlane3D into Planar Tracker in FG over BG mode = ditto

Comparison composition:

I've made a test comp that explores all of these options, using some stock footage and a Test Card image in three different aspect ratios (16:9, 1:1, 3.5:1).

It also includes Merge nodes in Difference mode so you can quickly compare the difference in output between the various methods. The reference frame is 57, which is noted in the comp.

Image

It includes the source footage and is 40MB, which is too big to upload as an attachment here, so you can download it from:
- Google Drive link.

Fusion Studio vs Resolve Studio

I made it in Fusion Studio, and if you unzip it and then open the .comp in Fusion Studio, it will all work immediately as it will load the media from the same directory as it finds the comp.

If you've not got Fusion Studio set up, you can instead make a Fusion Composition in Resolve, go into the Fusion page, then File -> Import -> Fusion Composition. However this will not automatically find the media. You then need to go to each Loader and load the appropriate PNG file. Each PNG is in a group named appropriately, eg TestCard169OverBG so you can see which file that group is meant to be loading:
- TestCard169OverBG = TestCard.png
- TestCardWideOverBG = TestCard3to1Wide.png (actually 3.5:1)
- TestCardSquareOverBG = TestCardSquare.png

The video footage can't be loaded by MediaIn in Resolve, so you'd need to drag it from the filesystem into Resolve, creating a new MediaIn, which you can then connect to the two PipeRouters that come off the "PexelsBuilding" node.

But it's really a lot easier to do in Fusion Studio as it'll just work immediately.

Discussing the comparisons:

Short answer is I don't have much experience in this area and I don't really know why there are these differences or what the recommended method is.

I feel like the difference between the Planar Tracker vs Planar Transform is something to do with filtering, but I don't know the specifics. There are no options I can find in the Planar Transform to control the scaling filtering, which is something one would see in a Merge, Transform or Resize node.

It's also possible that the difference is caused by the Corner Positioner rather than the Planar Transform.

I should add that I'm testing this on a test card image which is explicitly designed to clearly show differences, by virtue of containing large squares of colour and narrow thin lines. Whether the differences would be so apparent in a real life image, I'm not sure.

Based on these results, it does seem like Planar Tracker Corner Pin (either FG only or FG over BG) is the best option, at least compared to a Planar Transform.

Going into 3D:

I've never heard of anyone using the ImagePlane3D method in a 2D tracker - it's a common method for 3D camera tracks though.

I can't see any fundamental problems with it, besides a reduction in performance due to going into 3D with a Renderer3D. I think that if it gives the result you want, it should be fine to use it.

However in my tests thus far it's always giving me an altered aspect ratio. At first it was completely wrong, but then I realised that for the ImagePlane3D method, it's necessary to use the original image -at its original aspect ratio - and not the image merged over a frame size background.

However even that isn't exactly right. I still see AR adjustments. If I change the Renderer3d to have the correct aspect ratio - eg 2160x2160 instead of 3840x2160 - it looks much closer, but then it doesn't stick correctly across the full frame range.

So I'm a bit bemused about what you're doing differently there. But quite possibly I'm misunderstanding something or setting it up wrong.

I'll leave this here and upload my test comp and wait to see your example of how you're doing it.

3D Camera Tracking:

The use of ImagePlanes is commonly used in full Camera Tracking. You may already be aware of this, but in case not, here's a good tutorial on how this same sort of process could be completed in full 3D:

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Re: Bug: inconsistent behavior with planar tracker corner pi

PostMon Sep 27, 2021 2:37 pm

I'm reading your corrected post now. In the meantime, here is a video of my new workflow. I spent a while adjusting the image plane angle, but if that gets boring, feel free to skip to 5:57. Also at 6:27 you can't see the right-click drop down menus, but that's just a copy and paste of the first ImagePlane3D node.

Let me know what you think.

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Re: Bug: inconsistent behavior with planar tracker corner pi

PostTue Sep 28, 2021 9:33 pm

Since you have gone to the trouble of using 3D tools as a solution here is another option using the Locator 3D tool in Fusion.



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Re: Bug: inconsistent behavior with planar tracker corner pi

PostTue Sep 28, 2021 11:53 pm

Yeah, I mean that's great for the obvious use cases of it, but I really feel like I shouldn't have to use any 3D tools in the first place. Also, in my case I don't actually have (or want) any 3D data anyway, so I don't think that helps me here without adding more unnecessary work.

I really don't want to be using any 3D tools at all, but that workflow has been vastly faster, easier, and more accurate. That said, the only reason for this is just to have access to the pitch and yaw controls. So if some equivalent to those were implemented into the regular 2D transform, I wouldn't have to be tapping into a whole different pipeline for one small step. I'm also assuming it would be far more performant if it didn't have to create a whole 3D environment to render the geometric calculations.
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Re: Bug: inconsistent behavior with planar tracker corner pi

PostWed Sep 29, 2021 6:11 am

I agree, the trackers in Fusion are just adequate but if pushed into less than ideal conditions, all bets are off. Have you tried the DVE transform node for pitch and yawn? that will give you rotation on the x,y and z axis as well as some other options not available in the standard transform node.
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Re: Bug: inconsistent behavior with planar tracker corner pi

PostWed Sep 29, 2021 10:02 am

YESSS! This is exactly what I need! Center translations even happen in screen-space too, which was the only thing about ImagePlane3D that didn't work the way I needed it to. Wonderful. Thank you so much!

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