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Spherical Stabilizer destroys video... :(

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footofwrath

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Spherical Stabilizer destroys video... :(

PostMon Oct 18, 2021 6:24 pm

Have produced (so far) this clip. Shot in 5.7K 360:

* Spherical, pre-stabiliser:



Since I have sped up the video, it's now not very smooth - since gradual movement over time turns into shaky video.
That means I need to stabilise it again. I run it through the Spherical Stabiliser in Fusion standalone app using the 1/4 proxy file. It does stabilise, indeed, but it also makes it spin like a top on all axes. Here are the results (shortened cut):

* Equi-rectangular, post-stabiliser:



* Spherical, post-stabiliser:



What is going on? This is literally unusable.. yes I can go through and keyframe it back to some kind of sensibility but it still fluctuates in-between those keyframes so I'm having to tap every 3rd or 4th frame... that simply isn't feasible on a 34,000 frame clip.
I would say it seems the horizon levelling has gone AWOL or something. What steps do I need to take either before or after to make this work correctly?
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Re: Spherical Stabilizer destroys video... :(

PostMon Oct 18, 2021 6:48 pm

I'm not sure I understand. Did you try to stabilize the sped-up version?
If so, I think maybe the difference between frames might be too big for the stabilizer to pick up on?
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Re: Spherical Stabilizer destroys video... :(

PostMon Oct 18, 2021 6:56 pm

Long sequences drift, this is inevitable in any tracking unless some kind of constraints are applied. Computer doesn't "see" anything in the video, from stabilizers perspective it is just a bunch of random point positions floating around, so there is no practical way to measure what the human-logical up or forward direction is supposed to be. I guess it could be made so that movement direction is forward, but orienting up is a lot harder.

By the way if anyone knows any good automatic solution anywhere for this kind of problems, I'd love to know too.
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Re: Spherical Stabilizer destroys video... :(

PostTue Oct 19, 2021 12:35 am

Hendrik Proosa wrote:Long sequences drift, this is inevitable in any tracking unless some kind of constraints are applied. Computer doesn't "see" anything in the video, from stabilizers perspective it is just a bunch of random point positions floating around, so there is no practical way to measure what the human-logical up or forward direction is supposed to be. I guess it could be made so that movement direction is forward, but orienting up is a lot harder.

By the way if anyone knows any good automatic solution anywhere for this kind of problems, I'd love to know too.


Drift I wouldn't mind, this I could fix with a few Pano-map points. But as you can see from just the small snippet, it literally flips itself around inside-out in the space of 100 frames.

The non-sped-up video is 4hrs long. I would have to chop up, export multiple 20min chunk Prores clips, stabilise those one by one, then redo all the speed settings.


Definitely a horizon leveller seems an ---**obvious***--- thing to have in a spherical stabilisation tool.... not sure why that's not a basic component.
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Re: Spherical Stabilizer destroys video... :(

PostTue Oct 19, 2021 1:33 am

I've found --some-- kind of workaround. First I went through and Pano-mapped the entire video, jitter and all.
(Now, I have another thread here, where the stabiliser is just atrocious performance-wise in Resolve. So usually I do the Spherical Stabiliser in stand-alone Fusion because there I can get 90 frames per second using the proxy files, then I copy the SS node to Resolve. But I started doing my pano-map in Resolve so I'm kinda stuck there for now. If I managed to figure out proper FUsion transitions -within a clip- I might end up doing the whole thing in Fusion incl. Panomap & SS.. but ok for now, this:)

My video is 22mins long. After about 3000 frames, SS slows to about 1.2s/frame (this is on a 5.7K source, Fusion ignores the proxy it seems. :roll: )
So I've pano-mapped the whole 22min video. Since the first ~2000 frames *do* keep a decent speed, I'm able to simply chop the clip up into 20 individual pieces and run a SS node on each of the 5.7K clips within Resolve. It still drops the speed from 10fps to about 4fps by the end.. but that's enough to complete the 1600-2000 frames. THis way I can process the whole clip., eventually.
Would be much nicer to just set it loose & run the whole video ( so I can go to sleep :/ ). But this is manageable I guess. Will still mean a 16hr delay since I now have to leave it and pick it up after work tomorrow, so that's not ideal, but at least it's a workable way forward.

FYI, it's the 5950x/64gb/3090 I'm working with, so specs are unlikely to be the cause of the issue.
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Re: Spherical Stabilizer destroys video... :(

PostTue Oct 19, 2021 2:22 am

Oh I guess I explained the wrong issue. :))
The Pano-map ahead of the SS **kinda** prevents the SS from whacking the video too far out of alignment. But from the seems of it it's still far from ideal, I'll have to go back over --again--- with a Panomap to straighten things up again.. but at least it's not as bad as before.

But still ridiculous obviously.
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Re: Spherical Stabilizer destroys video... :(

PostTue Oct 19, 2021 2:46 am

I spoke too soon. SS node still destroys the video. Now it's just fighting against my panomaps instead of being free to roam.

Is there any way to copy & paste the Panomap data I've already entered (rotation/xyz values) onto the SS node directly? Maybe that way it'll know how to work with them...
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Re: Spherical Stabilizer destroys video... :(

PostTue Oct 19, 2021 6:34 am

footofwrath wrote:Definitely a horizon leveller seems an ---**obvious***--- thing to have in a spherical stabilisation tool.... not sure why that's not a basic component.

This is the problem, it is obvious to people, but from computer perspective detecting what the horizon is is nontrivial. It is as if trying to detect if some Jackson Pollock painting is right way up in gallery.
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Re: Spherical Stabilizer destroys video... :(

PostTue Oct 19, 2021 6:49 am

footofwrath wrote:My video is 22mins long. After about 3000 frames, SS slows to about 1.2s/frame (this is on a 5.7K source, Fusion ignores the proxy it seems. :roll: )
Try the fu:PurgeCache() script on MediaOut that I mentioned in your original thread. This sort of significant performance degradation over time is a classic symptom of the VRAM caching bug that the PurgeCache script alleviates to some extent.

The script is:
Code: Select all
if time % 20 == 0 then fu:PurgeCache() end
and it goes in MediaOut's "Frame Render Script" box. In Fusion Studio it would go in the Saver's Frame Render Script, but it sounds like you've not hit the issue in Fusion Studio. You try the script only if you see render FPS degrade significantly over time. It won't help in situations where FPS is consistently bad from the start, and it won't help with the keyframe-saving-is-really-slow issue where FPS is consistent then there's a massive pause at the end.
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Re: Spherical Stabilizer destroys video... :(

PostTue Oct 19, 2021 10:25 am

TheBloke wrote:
footofwrath wrote:My video is 22mins long. After about 3000 frames, SS slows to about 1.2s/frame (this is on a 5.7K source, Fusion ignores the proxy it seems. :roll: )
Try the fu:PurgeCache() script on MediaOut that I mentioned in your original thread. This sort of significant performance degradation over time is a classic symptom of the VRAM caching bug that the PurgeCache script alleviates to some extent.

The script is:
Code: Select all
if time % 20 == 0 then fu:PurgeCache() end
and it goes in MediaOut's "Frame Render Script" box. In Fusion Studio it would go in the Saver's Frame Render Script, but it sounds like you've not hit the issue in Fusion Studio. You try the script only if you see render FPS degrade significantly over time. It won't help in situations where FPS is consistently bad from the start, and it won't help with the keyframe-saving-is-really-slow issue where FPS is consistent then there's a massive pause at the end.


Hi man,
Yes I was planning that if I still struggled to run it but that's not the key issue currently. With my 'hack' I can get the SS to complete for every clip. The problem is that it's fighting against my keyframes already in place under the PanoMap node. And well without the panomap node the SS makes the video spin inside out (not just horizontally). That's the issue I'm trying to counter at the moment..
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Re: Spherical Stabilizer destroys video... :(

PostTue Oct 19, 2021 11:25 pm

TheBloke wrote:
footofwrath wrote:My video is 22mins long. After about 3000 frames, SS slows to about 1.2s/frame (this is on a 5.7K source, Fusion ignores the proxy it seems. :roll: )
Try the fu:PurgeCache() script on MediaOut that I mentioned in your original thread. This sort of significant performance degradation over time is a classic symptom of the VRAM caching bug that the PurgeCache script alleviates to some extent.

The script is:
Code: Select all
if time % 20 == 0 then fu:PurgeCache() end
and it goes in MediaOut's "Frame Render Script" box. In Fusion Studio it would go in the Saver's Frame Render Script, but it sounds like you've not hit the issue in Fusion Studio. You try the script only if you see render FPS degrade significantly over time. It won't help in situations where FPS is consistently bad from the start, and it won't help with the keyframe-saving-is-really-slow issue where FPS is consistent then there's a massive pause at the end.


Tried it on a 39,000-frame clip. No go, it did seem to keep it quick a tiny bit longer than usual, but after only 5000 frames it was already up at 0.50s/frame. I will use the script from now on anyway, since it's saved now, but FYI it didn't seem to do anything in the Frame Render Script field, but -did- seem to hold the framerate better in check if I simply right-click the MediaOut node, Scripts -> select the saved LUA file containing the code. Could be willing perception and maybe this does nothing but it seemed to have more effect that way...

Is there any really meaningful/thorough tutorial on the Spherical Stabliser? I only find Hugh's channel on YT that even mentions it at all.
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Re: Spherical Stabilizer destroys video... :(

PostTue Oct 19, 2021 11:28 pm

Sander de Regt wrote:I'm not sure I understand. Did you try to stabilize the sped-up version?
If so, I think maybe the difference between frames might be too big for the stabilizer to pick up on?


If you think about it, what you're saying is that you can never stabilise car footage since you're travelling at 30x the speed of walking footage.. and clearly we can stabilise car footage, so.....
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Re: Spherical Stabilizer destroys video... :(

PostTue Oct 19, 2021 11:33 pm

Hendrik Proosa wrote:
footofwrath wrote:Definitely a horizon leveller seems an ---**obvious***--- thing to have in a spherical stabilisation tool.... not sure why that's not a basic component.

This is the problem, it is obvious to people, but from computer perspective detecting what the horizon is is nontrivial. It is as if trying to detect if some Jackson Pollock painting is right way up in gallery.


What I mean by obvious is not that it's easy, but that it's guaranteed to be a thing that a lot of people would want, and so should be an obvious tool to build into a program in conjunction with spherical stabilisation.
It's also clearly not --so-- difficult though since consumer cameras can do it quite easily while recording even, so it can't be a huge insurmountable challenge really. And even if it's not the most basic code in the world I find it hard to believe that writing a SQL database or Windows operating system or hardware drivers for a billion transistors would be less complicated than simply telling a program "spin the circle around so that the big bright dome is on top".
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Re: Spherical Stabilizer destroys video... :(

PostWed Oct 20, 2021 5:39 am

Well, cameras have the assumption that user keeps it upright, stabilization is just a small extra step on top of that which removes small bumps, they can’t correct for larger deviations that have lower frequency, you need a gimbal for that with mechanical or gyroscopic mechanisms that use inertia.

SQL databases and Windows have many orders of magnitude more users == more money to throw at solving problems.

It should be included, I’m not against that by any means, even if it might sound like this. Just trying to articulate why it doesn’t currently work as expected. ”Big bright dome on top” for example is an assumption you can articulate to another person, but is a big bright dome an assumption stabilization can be built on in generic way? A lot of people do architectural walkthroughs where big bright areas are windows for example…
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Re: Spherical Stabilizer destroys video... :(

PostWed Oct 20, 2021 9:34 am

I get where you're coming from... but you only have to look at all the other smart things that the app can do, and it's clear that they managed some pretty fantastic smarts in there. Describing [to the system] what a horizon is can't really be beyond the skills of these programmers.

Yes there will be scenes that complicate that calculation, just as there are with any operation. Trackers for example have remarkable smarts, but nevertheless are not yet infallible. That doesn't stop people designing or using them.

And in any case most --360-- cameras, at least the more recent ones, specifically *don't* assume the camera is being held upright - since there's no need (or even justification) to assume that. Instead they have functional horizon detection, that the SS in Fusion is actually --breaking--.
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Re: Spherical Stabilizer destroys video... :(

PostWed Oct 20, 2021 10:16 am

Unless I'm doing something wrong in the way I'm using it, of course - that's certainly possible.
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Re: Spherical Stabilizer destroys video... :(

PostWed Oct 20, 2021 10:28 am

footofwrath wrote:Trackers for example have remarkable smarts, but nevertheless are not yet infallible. That doesn't stop people designing or using them.

And in any case most --360-- cameras, at least the more recent ones, specifically *don't* assume the camera is being held upright - since there's no need (or even justification) to assume that. Instead they have functional horizon detection, that the SS in Fusion is actually --breaking--.

Trackers are dumb as duck :D especially point trackers. Planar tracking is more sophisticated algorithmically but the general underlying idea is pretty simplistic too.

Can you point me to some camera which has functional automatic horizon detection, I’d like to look into it out of interest.
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Re: Spherical Stabilizer destroys video... :(

PostWed Oct 20, 2021 10:35 am

footofwrath wrote:
Sander de Regt wrote:I'm not sure I understand. Did you try to stabilize the sped-up version?
If so, I think maybe the difference between frames might be too big for the stabilizer to pick up on?


If you think about it, what you're saying is that you can never stabilise car footage since you're travelling at 30x the speed of walking footage.. and clearly we can stabilise car footage, so.....


The thing is: cars that move at 30x the speed of walking usually do so in an environment that's already smoother and more wide open. A car doesn't move up and down like a walking person does either (2 times a second) and if you'd walk down a highway and speed it up, it would most likely stabilize fine, but your example is on very narrow paths with scenery that changes about every step of the way, so I don't think car vs sped up walking is really comparable.
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Re: Spherical Stabilizer destroys video... :(

PostThu Oct 21, 2021 3:51 pm

Hendrik Proosa wrote:
Can you point me to some camera which has functional automatic horizon detection, I’d like to look into it out of interest.


All Insta360 cameras and the latest GoPro Fusion/Max also
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Re: Spherical Stabilizer destroys video... :(

PostThu Oct 21, 2021 3:53 pm

Sander de Regt wrote:

The thing is: cars that move at 30x the speed of walking usually do so in an environment that's already smoother and more wide open. A car doesn't move up and down like a walking person does either (2 times a second) and if you'd walk down a highway and speed it up, it would most likely stabilize fine, but your example is on very narrow paths with scenery that changes about every step of the way, so I don't think car vs sped up walking is really comparable.



Sorry, that's just nonsense. In that case you wouldn't --need-- a stabiliser for the car video. You precisely --need-- the stabiliser when there's bobbing up & down. Now you're saying, a stabiliser only works if there's nothing to stabilise...... :ugeek:

In any case part of my clip above is walking along the beach. That's basically a straight and flat highway as far as it matters. And it doesn't work there either.
And actually the --stablising-- is not even the problem. It's the spinning nonsense that is my issue. Not the failure or otherwise to smooth the footage.
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Re: Spherical Stabilizer destroys video... :(

PostThu Oct 21, 2021 3:58 pm

footofwrath wrote:
Hendrik Proosa wrote:
Can you point me to some camera which has functional automatic horizon detection, I’d like to look into it out of interest.


All Insta360 cameras and the latest GoPro Fusion/Max also


Can your camera output it's gyroscope/MEMS metadata per frame? Would be worth exporting to use here.
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Re: Spherical Stabilizer destroys video... :(

PostThu Oct 21, 2021 5:07 pm

As far as I can tell these cameras use gyro data, they don’t magically auto-level and stabilize the horizon based on video image alone.
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Re: Spherical Stabilizer destroys video... :(

PostThu Oct 21, 2021 7:08 pm

Hendrik Proosa wrote:As far as I can tell these cameras use gyro data, they don’t magically auto-level and stabilize the horizon based on video image alone.


That may well be the case, but they have to do it in real-time. The software can take a day to do it if it wants to, as long as it comes out with something usable at the end........
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Re: Spherical Stabilizer destroys video... :(

PostThu Oct 21, 2021 7:18 pm

Chad Capeland wrote:
footofwrath wrote:
Hendrik Proosa wrote:
Can you point me to some camera which has functional automatic horizon detection, I’d like to look into it out of interest.


All Insta360 cameras and the latest GoPro Fusion/Max also


Can your camera output it's gyroscope/MEMS metadata per frame? Would be worth exporting to use here.


Doesn't that also defeat the point of a professional video suite if it has to rely on the camera being able to prepare the clip in a certain way?
Surely I'm not the first person using 360 videos in Resolve.. I'm convinced I must be doing something basic very wrong. It can't be --this-- misguided.
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Re: Spherical Stabilizer destroys video... :(

PostThu Oct 21, 2021 7:21 pm

footofwrath wrote:
Hendrik Proosa wrote:As far as I can tell these cameras use gyro data, they don’t magically auto-level and stabilize the horizon based on video image alone.


That may well be the case, but they have to do it in real-time. The software can take a day to do it if it wants to, as long as it comes out with something usable at the end........

Apples and oranges. It should, and it could in theory, but as you discovered, in practice in Fusion it doesn’t. I’d like to be helpful but there isn’t much I can think of that would be useful for you based on what you have and what you need to get done.
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Re: Spherical Stabilizer destroys video... :(

PostFri Oct 22, 2021 1:27 am

I appreciate the assistance. Is that a normal occurrence? That the footage swings around like that? THat doesn't seem like expected behaviour. Even if the software can't level --perfectly---, it shouldn't be making a total mess of it like you can see here... surely...??
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Re: Spherical Stabilizer destroys video... :(

PostFri Oct 22, 2021 8:20 am

What exactly do you expect an optical stabiliser to use as a reference to level the image. From what I have seen of your video, the horizon and features are constantly changing in slope and shape. In some of the lower shots the visible horizon, the grass and trees, goes vertical and beyond. I guess that's where a flip occurs. I think you are expecting way too much. If I was shooting a video to break an optical stabiliser, it would include some of the stuff you have done.
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Re: Spherical Stabilizer destroys video... :(

PostFri Oct 22, 2021 1:01 pm

birdseye wrote:What exactly do you expect an optical stabiliser to use as a reference to level the image. From what I have seen of your video, the horizon and features are constantly changing in slope and shape. In some of the lower shots the visible horizon, the grass and trees, goes vertical and beyond. I guess that's where a flip occurs. I think you are expecting way too much. If I was shooting a video to break an optical stabiliser, it would include some of the stuff you have done.



I guess I would simply expect it to maintain as much as possible the reference provided by the source video. :lol: You can see the source is not wildly tilted. There is --NO-- reason for the stabiliser to introduce full 360° spins in the footage.
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Re: Spherical Stabilizer destroys video... :(

PostFri Oct 22, 2021 1:13 pm

Maybe I wasn't completely clear in the beginning.

* The top video is unstabilised source footage. It does not spin or tilt dramatically at any point.

* The bottom two videos are the post-stabilisation results (one equi-rectangular, one spherical, for clarity of the result). The Stabiliser has itself introduced wild tilts and complete flips into the footage.

I'm not asking for magic to occur on unrecoverable footage. I'm asking for the SS to not go mental and destroy the footage itself.
Resolve Studio 17
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birdseye

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Re: Spherical Stabilizer destroys video... :(

PostFri Oct 22, 2021 1:53 pm

Maybe your best bet would be to to mask out the ground and use the sky or something like that, There are certain parts like 1m12s to 1m33s that no one in there right mind would expect to optically stabilise.
The best you could hope for, as a guess, would be some sort of two or three stage supervised/corrected type stabilisation, which would involve cutting the video into many separate scenes.
If you ever find something that works it would be interesting to hear what worked.
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footofwrath

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Re: Spherical Stabilizer destroys video... :(

PostFri Oct 22, 2021 2:35 pm

birdseye wrote:Maybe your best bet would be to to mask out the ground and use the sky or something like that, There are certain parts like 1m12s to 1m33s that no one in there right mind would expect to optically stabilise.
The best you could hope for, as a guess, would be some sort of two or three stage supervised/corrected type stabilisation, which would involve cutting the video into many separate scenes.
If you ever find something that works it would be interesting to hear what worked.



Worth trying. I can cut it up at strategic locations and just process the SS on the parts that matter. That section you've mentioned doesn't need -any- stabilisation from what I can tell in the 360 image. So maybe cutting them out will provide suitable respite.
Resolve Studio 17
R9 5950x || RTX3090 || 64Gb 3600Mhz || Intel X520 10Gbe
R5 5600x || RX 6800 || 32Gb 3600Mhz
QNAP TS-470 pro @ 23tb formatted, Mellanox MCX312b 10Gbe
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Chad Capeland

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Re: Spherical Stabilizer destroys video... :(

PostFri Oct 22, 2021 6:01 pm

footofwrath wrote:
Chad Capeland wrote:
footofwrath wrote:
All Insta360 cameras and the latest GoPro Fusion/Max also


Can your camera output it's gyroscope/MEMS metadata per frame? Would be worth exporting to use here.


Doesn't that also defeat the point of a professional video suite if it has to rely on the camera being able to prepare the clip in a certain way?


Quite the opposite. I expect every professional camera to output per frame metadata that I use in the software, such as time code, frame rate, shutter speed, etc..

footofwrath wrote:Surely I'm not the first person using 360 videos in Resolve.. I'm convinced I must be doing something basic very wrong. It can't be --this-- misguided.


No, you aren't doing anything wrong. There are inputs to allow you to set the horizon.
Chad Capeland
Indicated, LLC
www.floweffects.com
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footofwrath

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Re: Spherical Stabilizer destroys video... :(

PostFri Oct 22, 2021 9:15 pm

Chad Capeland wrote:

No, you aren't doing anything wrong. There are inputs to allow you to set the horizon.


In the rotational transform under the SS node, right? How specific & "itemised" do I need to be? I tried a PanoMap already. both before and/or after the SS node. And also a smaller selection just on the SS node.
None of these stop the spinning.
Resolve Studio 17
R9 5950x || RTX3090 || 64Gb 3600Mhz || Intel X520 10Gbe
R5 5600x || RX 6800 || 32Gb 3600Mhz
QNAP TS-470 pro @ 23tb formatted, Mellanox MCX312b 10Gbe
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Chad Capeland

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Re: Spherical Stabilizer destroys video... :(

PostSat Oct 23, 2021 5:40 pm

footofwrath wrote:
None of these stop the spinning.


Animating Offset Rotation cannot correct the horizon and orientation? In that case, you don't have a nodal rotation, which is a different issue and would not be something corrected with Spherical Stabilizer, which only does nodal rotation.
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footofwrath

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Re: Spherical Stabilizer destroys video... :(

PostTue Oct 26, 2021 7:10 pm

Chad Capeland wrote:
footofwrath wrote:
None of these stop the spinning.


Animating Offset Rotation cannot correct the horizon and orientation? In that case, you don't have a nodal rotation, which is a different issue and would not be something corrected with Spherical Stabilizer, which only does nodal rotation.



I don't know what Animating Offset rotation is. I use PanoMap and Spherical Stabliser from the VR tools. They both have rotation/pitch/yaw corrections and keyframes. To be honest I do wonder what the difference is between them, minus the stabiliser of course.
I also don't know what nodal rotation is. I have a 360-degree video, hence why using Spherical Stabiliser. Should I use something else?
Resolve Studio 17
R9 5950x || RTX3090 || 64Gb 3600Mhz || Intel X520 10Gbe
R5 5600x || RX 6800 || 32Gb 3600Mhz
QNAP TS-470 pro @ 23tb formatted, Mellanox MCX312b 10Gbe

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