Jump to: Board index » General » Fusion

Fusion titles with DaVinci Color Management

Learn about 3D compositing, animation, broadcast design and VFX workflows.
  • Author
  • Message
Offline

Brett8883

  • Posts: 27
  • Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2021 3:21 pm
  • Real Name: Brett Burkhart

Fusion titles with DaVinci Color Management

PostThu Mar 18, 2021 6:36 pm

When I have DaVinci Color Management enabled using DaVinci Wide Gamut as the timeline colorspace and Rec. 704 gamma 2.4 as the output, when I put a fusion title on the timeline as a composite on the timeline the Fusion Title will be really pale as if the title is being output in DaVinci Wide gamut not Rec. 709.

I have to either pump up the gain in the color page on the title or disable Color Management for that clip.

Is this a bug or is this how it is suppose to work and if so why?

Thanks,

Resolve 17.1 for Mac 16” Mac Book Pro i7 Mac OS BigSur.
Offline

Brett8883

  • Posts: 27
  • Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2021 3:21 pm
  • Real Name: Brett Burkhart

Re: Fusion titles with DaVinci Color Management

PostThu Mar 18, 2021 6:38 pm

Oh and this does NOT happen if it is just pain text. Only if it is a fusion title so hence I think it has something to do with Fusion.
Offline

wfolta

  • Posts: 598
  • Joined: Fri May 15, 2020 1:12 pm
  • Real Name: Wayne Folta

Re: Fusion titles with DaVinci Color Management

PostThu Mar 18, 2021 8:59 pm

I don't have the info in front of me. There have been two or three threads on this if you search.

There's a setting for the White level somewhere in preferences and it defaults to 100 nits.

The bottom line is you're placing something that's only 100 nits (max SDR brightness) into your timeline which goes way beyond that. But you then ask Resolve to compress everything back down to 100 nits max on output. All of that stuff above 100 nits that's (potentially) in your timeline has to go somewhere, and it takes up the top end of the 100 nits available in your output.

Your original 100 nits isn't mapped to 100 nits, it's mapped to less than 100 nits, to make room for brighter stuff. Check the preference (sorry I forget where it is). Search for threads. You'll probably have several more-detailed solutions and explanations.
Resolve Studio 17 latest, Fusion Studio 17 latest, macOS Big Sur latest, MacBook Pro 2020 64GB RAM and Radeon Pro 5600M 8GB VRAM
Offline

Brett8883

  • Posts: 27
  • Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2021 3:21 pm
  • Real Name: Brett Burkhart

Re: Fusion titles with DaVinci Color Management

PostTue Mar 23, 2021 1:07 am

Ok but why does regular text act as expected then?
Offline

wfolta

  • Posts: 598
  • Joined: Fri May 15, 2020 1:12 pm
  • Real Name: Wayne Folta

Re: Fusion titles with DaVinci Color Management

PostTue Mar 23, 2021 12:41 pm

Brett8883 wrote:Ok but why does regular text act as expected then?

It's implemented differently. Text+ is ancient and started in the Fusion world, while Text is newer and started in the Resolve world.
Resolve Studio 17 latest, Fusion Studio 17 latest, macOS Big Sur latest, MacBook Pro 2020 64GB RAM and Radeon Pro 5600M 8GB VRAM
Offline
User avatar

Chad Capeland

  • Posts: 2635
  • Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 9:40 pm

Re: Fusion titles with DaVinci Color Management

PostWed Mar 24, 2021 4:37 pm

wfolta wrote:
Brett8883 wrote:Ok but why does regular text act as expected then?

It's implemented differently. Text+ is ancient and started in the Fusion world, while Text is newer and started in the Resolve world.


That has nothing to do with it.

The issue is any output from Fusion while Color Management is used will show this. Could be a solid color or a gradient and the issue would still be there.

The DaVinci Reference Manual says that RCM will convert linear tools in Fusion to the correct colorspace of the timeline when fed to the MediaOut, but it doesn't. I'm not sure if the issue is Resolve isn't doing something correctly or the documentation is wrong, but the effect shows up on any Fusion comp, not just ones that are exclusively a Txt+.
Chad Capeland
Indicated, LLC
www.floweffects.com
Offline

wfolta

  • Posts: 598
  • Joined: Fri May 15, 2020 1:12 pm
  • Real Name: Wayne Folta

Re: Fusion titles with DaVinci Color Management

PostWed Mar 24, 2021 6:10 pm

Chad Capeland wrote:
wfolta wrote:
Brett8883 wrote:Ok but why does regular text act as expected then?

It's implemented differently. Text+ is ancient and started in the Fusion world, while Text is newer and started in the Resolve world.


That has nothing to do with it.

There's a global setting for what "white" is in Fusion generators, including the old Text+. While Text is evidently not a Fusion generator. So I think my point still stands. You also need to look at the order of operations and where Fusion falls versus where Color and color management falls.
Resolve Studio 17 latest, Fusion Studio 17 latest, macOS Big Sur latest, MacBook Pro 2020 64GB RAM and Radeon Pro 5600M 8GB VRAM
Offline
User avatar

Chad Capeland

  • Posts: 2635
  • Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 9:40 pm

Re: Fusion titles with DaVinci Color Management

PostWed Mar 24, 2021 7:30 pm

wfolta wrote:There's a global setting for what "white" is in Fusion generators, including the old Text+. While Text is evidently not a Fusion generator. So I think my point still stands. You also need to look at the order of operations and where Fusion falls versus where Color and color management falls.


No, because you don't need a Fusion generator to cause the error.

Take the Resolve Rich Text, add it to the timeline, make it into a compound clip, and make a Fusion comp for it and you'll get a MediaIn showing your Rich Text generated image. Then apply a BC, set the Gain to 0 and the Brightness to 0.5. You'll get a solid grey image. Compare how it looks in the Fusion Viewer set to a "Managed" LUT and how it looks in the Edit timeline view. They won't match at all. The "Managed" LUT in Fusion doesn't apply the correct transform to match the Edit page (which I suspect is correct).

Where do you see a global setting that applies only to Fusion generators?
Chad Capeland
Indicated, LLC
www.floweffects.com
Offline

Brett8883

  • Posts: 27
  • Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2021 3:21 pm
  • Real Name: Brett Burkhart

Re: Fusion titles with DaVinci Color Management

PostSat Mar 27, 2021 2:06 am

At any rate whatever the reason it seems like a bug with color management and fusion.

Resolve knows my output is rec. 709 2.4 so if a title is suppose to be white it should output the color as white in the output colorspace. This shouldn’t be complicated.
Offline

Hendrik Proosa

  • Posts: 1637
  • Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 6:53 am
  • Location: Estonia

Re: Fusion titles with DaVinci Color Management

PostSat Mar 27, 2021 9:48 am

It is complicated because with this kind of color management systems, output is a swappable ”plug” to actual image data, a derivate that shouldn’t change the data itself. So it is not possible to deduce from a wide set of possible outputs, what the input brightness should be. User must control it explicitly based on intended look.

But there are loads of bugs too, can’t argue with that.
I do stuff.
Offline
User avatar

Chad Capeland

  • Posts: 2635
  • Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 9:40 pm

Re: Fusion titles with DaVinci Color Management

PostSat Mar 27, 2021 2:16 pm

Hendrik Proosa wrote:So it is not possible to deduce from a wide set of possible outputs, what the input brightness should be. User must control it explicitly based on intended look.


If it's impossible, then it shouldn't be the default option.

But I still maintain it's a bug, as you can drag a solid color generator onto the timeline and it looks one way, but if you put use it as a MediaIn in a Fusion comp, it looks another way. So there's something broken, the same input should output the same if nothing the user does changes the color.
Chad Capeland
Indicated, LLC
www.floweffects.com
Offline

Hendrik Proosa

  • Posts: 1637
  • Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 6:53 am
  • Location: Estonia

Re: Fusion titles with DaVinci Color Management

PostSat Mar 27, 2021 7:28 pm

Chad Capeland wrote:If it's impossible, then it shouldn't be the default option.

BMD is convinced everything works as expected. You’ll probably have more success teaching cat to swim than get a comment from BMD how all of the color management related stuff that according to manual just works actually works in Fu page. They have successfully turned a proactive black eye towards all ACES related bugs and questions and same most probably happens with new color management in Fu page.
I do stuff.
Offline

Brett8883

  • Posts: 27
  • Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2021 3:21 pm
  • Real Name: Brett Burkhart

Re: Fusion titles with DaVinci Color Management

PostMon Mar 29, 2021 1:12 am

Hendrik Proosa wrote:It is complicated because with this kind of color management systems, output is a swappable ”plug” to actual image data, a derivate that shouldn’t change the data itself. So it is not possible to deduce from a wide set of possible outputs, what the input brightness should be. User must control it explicitly based on intended look.

But there are loads of bugs too, can’t argue with that.


I still don’t understand what you are saying because all they need to do is make the input colorspace for fusion titles be whatever fusion titles start off as (Rec. 709?). It will be transformed to DWG on the timeline by color Management and then output as the output colorspace just like anything else. It doesn’t matter what your output colorspace is.

DaVinci Wide Gamut isn’t an output colorspace so if Resolve can’t figure out how to properly make colorspace transforms from that colorspace it is worthless.
Offline

Hendrik Proosa

  • Posts: 1637
  • Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 6:53 am
  • Location: Estonia

Re: Fusion titles with DaVinci Color Management

PostMon Mar 29, 2021 5:18 am

Why should titles start as rec709 in Davinci Wide Gamut / Davinci Intermediate project? Rec709 must have inverse tonemapping applied to scale the dynamic range to DWG/DI so when they pass through forward transform in the end they come through as a no-op. For titles it it would maybe make sense but it is a maybe. What if user wants to have proper wide dynamic range titles?

I get your idea but there are issues and these are magnified by the soup of bugs and half-solutions where it is a bit difficult to reason about what exactly is happening with each type of possible data.
I do stuff.
Offline
User avatar

Bernd Klimm

  • Posts: 35
  • Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2016 7:37 am

Re: Fusion titles with DaVinci Color Management

PostTue Mar 30, 2021 9:12 am

The problem is that the Fusion title tool doesn't know anything about color spaces. It is working quite well for rec.709 linear - because there it happens to produce the colors that you see in the color wheel and inspector preview.

If you use it in another color space/gamut it still produces the RGB values that you specify, but the color wheel and swatches from the inspector won't match the display and you might need values that are outside of the range of the color wheel. For example to get a white color in DaVinci Wide Gamut, you could enter a value of around 40 in the Value filed in the shading tab. In linear or in rec.709 Gamma 2.4 that would be far above the scale, but in an HDR space apparently that's where they seem to map the highlights.

I do think it would help to do a conversion from your output space to Wide Gamut linear, including the Tone mapping. Because that way you get what you see (assuming your monitor matches the output...) in the color palette and can choose any color you are able to view. At the same time you convert what you see into wide gamut-linear for Fusion, so you can go on with linear work in Fusion and the color management brings it back correctly towards the timeline and output space.

I tried it for Davinci Wide Gamut with Rec.709 and can do the transformation with two color space nodes added after the text+ node. First color space node goes to DaVinci Intermediate and applies the DRT - basically transform into timeline space, second one goes from Intermediate to linear for Fusion.

Like this:

Code: Select all
{
   Tools = ordered() {
      ColorSpaceTransform3 = ofx.com.blackmagicdesign.resolvefx.ColorSpaceTransformV2 {
         CtrlWZoom = false,
         Inputs = {
            Source = Input {
               SourceOp = "ColorSpaceTransform2",
               Source = "Output",
            },
            colorSpaceTransformGroup = Input { Value = 1, },
            inputColorSpace = Input { Value = FuID { "TIMELINE_COLORSPACE" }, },
            inputGamma = Input { Value = FuID { "AUTO_GAMMA" }, },
            outputColorSpace = Input { Value = FuID { "TIMELINE_COLORSPACE" }, },
            outputGamma = Input { Value = FuID { "LINEAR_GAMMA" }, },
            isRec2390ScalingEnabled = Input { Value = 0, },
            toneMappingGroup = Input { Value = 1, },
            tmType = Input { Value = FuID { "TM_NONE" }, },
            isSrcLumMaxCustomEnabled = Input {
               Value = 0,
               Disabled = true,
            },
            srcLumMax = Input {
               Value = 100,
               Disabled = true,
            },
            isDstLumMaxCustomEnabled = Input {
               Value = 0,
               Disabled = true,
            },
            dstLumMax = Input {
               Value = 100,
               Disabled = true,
            },
            srcLumAvg = Input {
               Value = 9,
               Disabled = true,
            },
            satRolloffStart = Input { Value = 100, },
            satRolloffLimit = Input { Value = 10000, },
            gamutMappingGroup = Input { Value = 1, },
            gmType = Input { Value = FuID { "GM_NONE" }, },
            satKnee = Input {
               Value = 0.899999976158142,
               Disabled = true,
            },
            satMax = Input {
               Value = 1,
               Disabled = true,
            },
            advancedGroup = Input { Value = 1, },
            doFwdOOTF = Input { Value = 0, },
            doInvOOTF = Input { Value = 0, },
            blendGroup = Input { Value = 0, },
            blendIn = Input { Value = 1, },
            blend = Input { Value = 0, },
            ignoreContentShape = Input { Value = 0, },
            legacyIsProcessRGBOnly = Input { Value = 0, },
            refreshTrigger = Input { Value = 1, },
            resolvefxVersion = Input { Value = "1.0", },
         },
         ViewInfo = OperatorInfo { Pos = { 165, 49.5 } },
      },
      ColorSpaceTransform2 = ofx.com.blackmagicdesign.resolvefx.ColorSpaceTransformV2 {
         Inputs = {
            Source = Input {
               SourceOp = "Template",
               Source = "Output",
            },
            colorSpaceTransformGroup = Input { Value = 1, },
            inputColorSpace = Input { Value = FuID { "REC709_COLORSPACE" }, },
            inputGamma = Input { Value = FuID { "TWOPOINTFOUR_GAMMA" }, },
            outputColorSpace = Input { Value = FuID { "TIMELINE_COLORSPACE" }, },
            outputGamma = Input { Value = FuID { "AUTO_GAMMA" }, },
            isRec2390ScalingEnabled = Input {
               Value = 0,
               Disabled = true,
            },
            toneMappingGroup = Input { Value = 1, },
            tmType = Input { Value = FuID { "TM_DRT_V2" }, },
            isSrcLumMaxCustomEnabled = Input { Value = 0, },
            srcLumMax = Input {
               Value = 100,
               Disabled = true,
            },
            isDstLumMaxCustomEnabled = Input { Value = 1, },
            dstLumMax = Input { Value = 4000, },
            srcLumAvg = Input { Value = 9, },
            satRolloffStart = Input { Value = 100, },
            satRolloffLimit = Input { Value = 10000, },
            gamutMappingGroup = Input { Value = 1, },
            gmType = Input { Value = FuID { "GM_NONE" }, },
            satKnee = Input {
               Value = 0.899999976158142,
               Disabled = true,
            },
            satMax = Input {
               Value = 1,
               Disabled = true,
            },
            advancedGroup = Input { Value = 1, },
            doFwdOOTF = Input { Value = 0, },
            doInvOOTF = Input { Value = 1, },
            blendGroup = Input { Value = 0, },
            blendIn = Input { Value = 1, },
            blend = Input { Value = 0, },
            ignoreContentShape = Input { Value = 0, },
            legacyIsProcessRGBOnly = Input { Value = 0, },
            refreshTrigger = Input { Value = 1, },
            resolvefxVersion = Input { Value = "1.0", },
         },
         ViewInfo = OperatorInfo { Pos = { 55, 49.5 } },
      },
      Template = TextPlus {
         Inputs = {
            GlobalOut = Input { Value = 119, },
            Width = Input { Value = 1920, },
            Height = Input { Value = 1080, },
            UseFrameFormatSettings = Input { Value = 1, },
            Center = Input { Value = { 0.752293577981651, 0.306802721088435 }, },
            Green1 = Input { Value = 0.0470588235294118, },
            Blue1 = Input { Value = 0.333333333333333, },
            StyledText = Input { Value = "Fusion\n Title", },
            Font = Input { Value = "Open Sans", },
            Style = Input { Value = "Bold", },
            Size = Input { Value = 0.2008, },
            VerticalJustificationNew = Input { Value = 3, },
            HorizontalJustificationNew = Input { Value = 3, },
            ManualFontKerningPlacement = Input {
               Value = StyledText {
                  Array = {
                  },
                  Value = ""
               },
            },
         },
         ViewInfo = OperatorInfo { Pos = { -110, 49.5 } },
      }
   }
}


And these are the Color Space settings for this test:

WG settings.png
WG settings.png (55.26 KiB) Viewed 468 times


Ultimately I think Resolve might need an additional option to make Fusion text and generator nodes color space aware for use from the edit page. Not sure that's really the ideal solution but it could solve the issues with text titles.
https://vfxstudy.com
Offline
User avatar

Chad Capeland

  • Posts: 2635
  • Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 9:40 pm

Re: Fusion titles with DaVinci Color Management

PostTue Mar 30, 2021 3:30 pm

Bernd Klimm wrote:Ultimately I think Resolve might need an additional option to make Fusion text and generator nodes color space aware for use from the edit page. Not sure that's really the ideal solution but it could solve the issues with text titles.


But the issue isn't the Fusion generators. It's Fusion itself. If you do anything on the Fusion page, the viewer won't match the output in the rest of Resolve. The "Managed" LUT doesn't work. It should be able to apply the same conversions that you see in the rest of Resolve.
Chad Capeland
Indicated, LLC
www.floweffects.com
Offline
User avatar

Bernd Klimm

  • Posts: 35
  • Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2016 7:37 am

Re: Fusion titles with DaVinci Color Management

PostTue Mar 30, 2021 4:25 pm

Chad Capeland wrote:
But the issue isn't the Fusion generators. It's Fusion itself. If you do anything on the Fusion page, the viewer won't match the output in the rest of Resolve. The "Managed" LUT doesn't work. It should be able to apply the same conversions that you see in the rest of Resolve.


Correct the managed vie LUT doesn't work for wide gamut nor for ACES because it does only the Fusion gamut transform but not the tone mapping / DRT. For ACES you can use a workaround via an OCIO view LUT. For wide Gamut I don't think there's any reasonable workaround within the existing LUT capabilities you can only manually built colorspace transforms and deactivate the LUT.

However, you have a second problem with titles. you often use them directly from the edit without even looking into Fusion. The transforms to linear or back from linear in this case are working, but adjusting the title in wide Gamut is very difficult and unintuitive. Even with a correct view LUT or from the edit page it isn't pracrical because the color wheel from the inspector looks so different from what you end up seeing. Also if you create a white title template, presumably you want it to look white independent of the color management that happens to be active, that's why I suggested going backwards and use the title like it was working in your output space.
https://vfxstudy.com
Offline

Brett8883

  • Posts: 27
  • Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2021 3:21 pm
  • Real Name: Brett Burkhart

Re: Fusion titles with DaVinci Color Management

PostTue Mar 30, 2021 8:11 pm

Bernd Klimm wrote:
Chad Capeland wrote:
But the issue isn't the Fusion generators. It's Fusion itself. If you do anything on the Fusion page, the viewer won't match the output in the rest of Resolve. The "Managed" LUT doesn't work. It should be able to apply the same conversions that you see in the rest of Resolve.


However, you have a second problem with titles. you often use them directly from the edit without even looking into Fusion. The transforms to linear or back from linear in this case are working, but adjusting the title in wide Gamut is very difficult and unintuitive. Even with a correct view LUT or from the edit page it isn't pracrical because the color wheel from the inspector looks so different from what you end up seeing. Also if you create a white title template, presumably you want it to look white independent of the color management that happens to be active, that's why I suggested going backwards and use the title like it was working in your output space.

This is what I was talking about. I don’t know about the other stuff.

Can you explain what you mean going backwards and working with the title like it was in your output space? Or you mean that’s your suggestion to BMD?
Offline
User avatar

Bernd Klimm

  • Posts: 35
  • Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2016 7:37 am

Re: Fusion titles with DaVinci Color Management

PostTue Mar 30, 2021 8:48 pm

Brett8883 wrote:Can you explain what you mean going backwards and working with the title like it was in your output space? Or you mean that’s your suggestion to BMD?


Ultimately BMD should think of a solution. But as a possible workaround, did you look at the flow I posted above?
I added two color space transforms behind the text+ tool to convert it from rec709 Gamma 2.4 to wide Gammut linear. That way you can control it like you were selecting colors based on what you see on your monitor and they get converted into the technically correct space.

Not sure that's ideal - but the best I could think of so far for this.
If your color management sertings are different from mine, you would need to adjust the nodes accordingly. And keep in mind that your Fusion viewer preview will still be incorrect due to the other issue... so better check the result from edit.

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk
https://vfxstudy.com
Offline

Brett8883

  • Posts: 27
  • Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2021 3:21 pm
  • Real Name: Brett Burkhart

Re: Fusion titles with DaVinci Color Management

PostWed Mar 31, 2021 1:12 am

Bernd Klimm wrote:
Brett8883 wrote:Can you explain what you mean going backwards and working with the title like it was in your output space? Or you mean that’s your suggestion to BMD?


Ultimately BMD should think of a solution. But as a possible workaround, did you look at the flow I posted above?
I added two color space transforms behind the text+ tool to convert it from rec709 Gamma 2.4 to wide Gammut linear. That way you can control it like you were selecting colors based on what you see on your monitor and they get converted into the technically correct space.

Not sure that's ideal - but the best I could think of so far for this.
If your color management sertings are different from mine, you would need to adjust the nodes accordingly. And keep in mind that your Fusion viewer preview will still be incorrect due to the other issue... so better check the result from edit.

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk


Thanks. Pumping up the gain in the color page is easy enough it is just is annoying. Any solution would have to be a global one not per clip.

I do see what people are saying though about the Fusion viewer LUT not matching the edit page. That’s probably the bigger issue because the titles look right in the fusion page even with color Management turned on.

Return to Fusion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 18 guests