UltraStudio Mini Monitor Thunderbolt 2 - YUV 422 ?

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MatthieuAbily

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UltraStudio Mini Monitor Thunderbolt 2 - YUV 422 ?

PostTue Apr 06, 2021 4:23 pm

Hello everybody at blackmagic.

A real simple question :

i'm using a macbook with thunderbolt 3 port, with an adapter to thunderbolt 2, connected to a blackmagic ultrastudio mini monitor thunderbolt 2, connected to an EIZO monitor with HDMI.

As of today, is the blackmagic ultrastudio mini monitor still outputting YUV 422 signal trough HDMI, even with the desktop video 11.7 ? is everything thrown at the card trough thunderbolt outputted to YUV 422 ? there is a lot of people saying "yes" to that question on internet but i just want to be sure.

Actually, my eizo is setup to receive VIDEO in signal format (administrator settings) and SIGNAL is set to YUV 422 in input color format and everything is fine.

Before that, it was setup to PC in signal format and then in INPUT COLOR FORMAT, set to RGB, and everything was fine. Does that mean that the conversion from the blackmagic output was taken care of by the monitor itself ? so i should stick to VIDEO and YUV 422 ?

Best,

Matthieu Abily
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: UltraStudio Mini Monitor Thunderbolt 2 - YUV 422 ?

PostTue Apr 06, 2021 5:33 pm

I think old mini monitor (non 3G) model always sends 4:2:2 YUV.
If you set Eizo to auto it should tell you what it detects - YUV or RGB.
Typically all should be fine on auto- no need to force specific type of signal manually.
You need to play with it only when you see that things don't look fine or connection doesn't work at all.

If incoming signal is YUV and you force RGB in monitor you should see bad picture or not at all.
If you are talking about levels then this will always work, but one setting will be simply wrong (so you will get to dark or washed out preview).

Set monitor to Auto and keep changing levels setting (Resolve/project/monitoring settings) to limited vs full.
Watch your monitor input signal info. It should follow your setting. If it doesn't then set manually in both places (Resolve/monitor) to the same value. For YUV safer options is limited levels (specially if you use other tools, not just Resolve where you have control over it).
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MatthieuAbily

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Re: UltraStudio Mini Monitor Thunderbolt 2 - YUV 422 ?

PostTue Apr 06, 2021 10:01 pm

Hello Andrew.

i'm really glad that you are the one responding. i have read a lot of your post over the internet and i gotta say that you are of the most consistent helper i had. I never got annoyed reading your post that were correct where others were most of the time biased. so thanks for being so clear and well informed, and helpful to others and me.

about our question : all right, that is what i tought. but why in some of blackmagic tech sheets about the specific ultrastudio thunderbolt 2 (so yes, the older one, same as me), we can see HDMI video
sampling 4:4:4 ?

yes, i agree with everything you said : video levels should be a better choice when working with yuv 4:2:2 (would you mind explaining to me why you think that ? this is my setting, resolve set in video levels and my eizo to limited), resolve should be consistent with the eizo and auto should detect those fine (it does by the way).

BUT : when you dive in the eizo settings, there is a sub menu, called administrator. Here, you can set
the signal format : HDMI -> PC or VIDEO.
There is another settings in the regular menu where the input color format can be set : Auto / Yuv 422 / Yuv 444 / RGB.
When using HDMI VIDEO + Yuv 422 (or Auto) the displayed image is correct.
When using HDMI PC + Rgb (or auto) the displayed image is correct also.
HDMI is set to use PC as a basis. When set under PC, you only get 8 bits according to the manual.
also, knowing i would be working with a yuv 422 output and following one of your other advice where you said to limit conversion and work if possible in rgb 444 full range or yuv 422 limited, i decided for hdmi video + yuv422.. any thoughts ?

best,

Matthieu
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: UltraStudio Mini Monitor Thunderbolt 2 - YUV 422 ?

PostTue Apr 06, 2021 10:31 pm

BM is not very detailed when it comes to HDMI output, so I never seen clean answer for:
if SDI is 4:2:2 (due to lack of 3G support), can HDMI be 4:4:4 at the same time (typically HDMI rather follows SDI, but this is not some hard rule and depends on the card design).

YUV is 'expected' to be limited range (if we have no control), but nothing stops you to use full range (you have more range to spread your signal to 940-64 vs 1019-4, so in theory better quality).
Problem is when you use card with app which doesn't tell you what it's exactly doing. Then if you keep monitor forced to eg. full you may get bad result as app may be sending limited.

PC and Video must have some special meaning for Eizo and I assume in your case you want to use video (you rather want 10bit 4:2:2 over 8bit RGB). Sometimes BM has issues with its HDMI output and some settings don't work, where other do.
Full or limited- you can choose. If you work just with Resolve you can use full to have "better" signal, but in reality you won't see any difference.

2 HDMI devices "talk to each other" before agree on final ("best") signal format which will be used. For PCs connection this can mean RGB 8bit signal, where for Video rather 10bit 4:2:2 (this is only my assumption how Eizo is working- you can ask them). With good monitor you have info about established signal, which is great as allows for some debugging.

Don't worry much about it. As long as you have 10bit then 4:4:4 or 4:2:2 and full vs. limited is less important.
Probably 75% of monitoring in top post houses is still done as 10bit 4:2:2 limited ( due to different reasons including older hardware).
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MatthieuAbily

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Re: UltraStudio Mini Monitor Thunderbolt 2 - YUV 422 ?

PostWed Apr 07, 2021 7:40 am

all right, so without blackmagic support, we should assume yuv 422 following sdi specs.

i only use the eizo with resolve, but still, maybe i should keep using limited ? i won't notice any changes or improvements. following your advices, i should be completely fine working in limited.

all right. i'm not sure i'm getting 10 bits. i theoretically should get it, with the ultrastudio mini monitor thinderbolt 2 / eizo cs2420 / resolve with hdmi.

is there a way to check for sure ?

with the gradient in resolve timeline ? thanks a lot andrew.
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: UltraStudio Mini Monitor Thunderbolt 2 - YUV 422 ?

PostWed Apr 07, 2021 10:07 am

Gradient is a way. Should be very clean.
Another way is to check monitor signal info. It’s somewhere in the menu.
It’s called Information I think.
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MatthieuAbily

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Re: UltraStudio Mini Monitor Thunderbolt 2 - YUV 422 ?

PostWed Apr 07, 2021 11:29 am

Yes, and i'm definitely not getting 10 bits..

i really don't know why.

Eizo is set to video and YUV
Range should not matter
And the ultrastudio mini monitor th 2 should output 10 bits trough hdmi.
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: UltraStudio Mini Monitor Thunderbolt 2 - YUV 422 ?

PostWed Apr 07, 2021 11:34 am

Did you set 10bit in Resolve?

What does Eizo info section say?
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MatthieuAbily

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Re: UltraStudio Mini Monitor Thunderbolt 2 - YUV 422 ?

PostWed Apr 07, 2021 12:17 pm

In Master settings ? Yes, video bit depth is set to 10 bits.

Information say : Input signal to HDMI / 1080 25p

fH : 28.12 kHz
fV : 25.00 Hz
fD : 74.2 Mhz
Colorimetry Rec 601 / Rec 709

And nothing else
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MatthieuAbily

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Re: UltraStudio Mini Monitor Thunderbolt 2 - YUV 422 ?

PostWed Apr 07, 2021 12:37 pm

I think the issues reside with something called deep color in HDMI specs.

Paulo Jan wrote:
Christian Lessner wrote:
Conclusion: The BM Mini Monitor card does indeed output 10 Bit on HDMI.

But: There might be some kind of "handshake" between the devices to configure the mode and maybe Eizo mucks that one up, resulting in the Mini Monitor switching to 8 Bit.



Resurrecting this old thread, since I just spent an afternoon researching this very issue. It seemed to me, after reading everything written about this, that this mysterious "handshake" is what specs keep calling "Deep Color", which must be something more specific than just 10-bit color, and must involve something mysterious. Also, "Deep Color" is a term that keeps appearing in the context of HDMI specs.

So I had an idea, and went looking for the official HDMI specification. It is a proprietary document, but I managed to find it (ahem :lol: ), and... guess what: it says that, when transmitting "deep color" (higher than 8 bit depth), images MUST be transmitted in RGB or YUV 444... but NOT YUV 422.

Now, the Mini Monitor's spec page (https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/produc ... s/W-DLK-06) say that it has 10-bit color precision... but ONLY YUV 422 color subsampling. Noticeably, the "HDMI" portion of the spec doesn't use the "Deep Color" term anywhere. On the other hand, the Mini Monitor 4K's spec does say clearly "Deep Color" (and also says "HDMI Video Sampling: 4:4:4, 4:2:2 & 4:2:0").

Erik Wittbusch: I've been finding your posts about the subject everywhere (both here and in LiftGammaGain), since you seem to have a very similar setup to mine (I also have an Eizo CG247), and I've been following your email rounds with Eizo and Blackmagic's support. I don't know if you are still interested in the issue, but I guess this finally answers the question you had in this post (http://www.liftgammagain.com/forum/inde ... post-56707). And that also means, I guess, that we now know specifically what to shop for if we want to send 10 bits to the Eizo...
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: UltraStudio Mini Monitor Thunderbolt 2 - YUV 422 ?

PostWed Apr 07, 2021 1:01 pm

Try setting Resolve this way:
Screenshot 2021-04-07 at 14.58.18.png
Screenshot 2021-04-07 at 14.58.18.png (30.56 KiB) Viewed 744 times


In Eizo try Video or PC. Try also Video and force YUV 422.
As I said- looks like BM<->Eizo negotiation agrees on RGB 8bit as best format, not 10bit YUV.
This is why I prefer AJA cards- with them about everything is user configurable.
BM and HDMI don't really like each other (in case of older devices). New devices seem to be better as BM is probably using different HDMI chip.
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MatthieuAbily

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Re: UltraStudio Mini Monitor Thunderbolt 2 - YUV 422 ?

PostWed Apr 07, 2021 2:36 pm

I tried everything you said.

Resolve was already set up that way.

It was already set up to video and YUV 422, were there was banding with resolve grey scale (none on my macbook screen).

I also tried PC and RGB and still banding, but this is expected since EIZO in PC mode is only 8 bits according to EIZO. ("10 bit and 12 bit are supported only when using HDMI-Video")

I think that the Eizo needing deep color specs and the blackmagic outputting only YUV 422 as you said earlier is the main problem.

Deep Colour is needed for 10 Bits displaying on the Eizo.
Video Mode is needed for 10 bits on my monitor.
Deep colour is not compatible with YUV 422, which is outputted by the Mini Monitor. So, it seems like i can't get 10 bits on my EIZO.
I would need a different BM card for that..
I would need if i'm not mistaken : A card that can ouput RGB 444 or YUV 444, having the EIZO set to VIDEO Mode and then it would work.

What do you think Andrew ?
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: UltraStudio Mini Monitor Thunderbolt 2 - YUV 422 ?

PostWed Apr 07, 2021 3:14 pm

HDMI Sources and Sinks may support color depths of 24, 30, 36 and/or 48 bits per pixel. All HDMI Sources and Sinks shall support 24 bits per pixel.

Color depths greater than 24 bits are defined to be “Deep Color” modes. All Deep Color modes are optional though if an HDMI Source or Sink supports any Deep Color mode, it shall support 36-bit mode.
For each supported Deep Color mode, RGB 4:4:4 shall be supported and optionally YCBCR 4:4:4 may be supported.
YCBCR 4:2:2 is not permitted for any Deep Color mode.
An HDMI Sink shall support all EDID-indicated Deep Color modes on all EDID-indicated video formats except if that combination exceeds the Max_TMDS_Clock indication.
An HDMI Source shall not send any Deep Color mode to a Sink that does not indicate support for that mode.


Spec 1.3a say 10bit at 4:2:2 is not supported. So if BM card works only at 4:2:2 then it means it has no chance to send 10bit signal according to official HDMI spec. No idea what chip is inside this BM card and not sure if higher HDMI specs remove this limitation (I think they do), but this may be the reason why you can't get 10bit. Why BM says on the spec that card sends 10bit over HDMI I don't know. If it does convert main signal to 4:4:4 for HDMI then why Eizo is not working then at 10bit (maybe Eizo chooses 8bit RGB as main connection type).
Try forcing Eizo to 444 YUV.

Spec 1.4a says:
"YCBCR 4:2:2 is also 36-bit mode but does not require the further use of the Deep Color modes described in section 6.5.2 and 6.5.3"
which means 4:2:2 8bit+ bit depths are allowed with 1.4a+ chips.

I'm not a fan of the way how HDMI is handled on BM devices (new ones seems to be better though). There seems to be plenty compatibility issues with HDMI on older BM cards. Never experienced such a thing with other brands cards/converters. BM should also be more specific on product page. Curren info is way not detailed enough for pro products.
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MatthieuAbily

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Re: UltraStudio Mini Monitor Thunderbolt 2 - YUV 422 ?

PostWed Apr 07, 2021 5:37 pm

So what you are saying is that there is absolutely no way off getting 10 bit out of a ultrastudio mini monitor in HDMI ?

I tried using YUV 444 but colors are all over the place (yellow greyscale), and there is still banding, of course.

I trying to wrap my head around it, i have been in contact with eizo, i'm waiting on blackmagic answers also, maybe something will come out of it.
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: UltraStudio Mini Monitor Thunderbolt 2 - YUV 422 ?

PostWed Apr 07, 2021 5:46 pm

MatthieuAbily wrote:I tried using YUV 444 but colors are all over the place (yellow greyscale), and there is still banding, of course.



This means signal is not 444, but most likely 422 and if card has 1.3 chip then there is no way to get 10bit in this mode.
Force to RGB- if it's also bad then we know that BM sends 8bit YUV 4:2:2.

Eizo CS range doesn't show bit depth in Info section. If I'm correct CG series does.
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MatthieuAbily

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Re: UltraStudio Mini Monitor Thunderbolt 2 - YUV 422 ?

PostWed Apr 07, 2021 11:11 pm

Yes, signal is 422 as it is supposed to be.

Yes when forcing to RGB, the color is also all over the place, which is normal, the signal being yuv.

But to me, that does not mean that the bm ultrastudio MM does not output YUV 422 10 Bits.

"I think they may mean no 10-bit RGB. The Mini Monitor definitely outputs 10-bit Y'CbCr over HDMI. I just confirmed that using the Spot Meter function on my Odyssey 7Q+, which can display actual 10-bit code values for pixels. I sent a grey scale ramp out of Resolve, and can see all the 10 bit values, which would not exist if the signal was 8-bit." was saying Nick Shawn on another forum.

But it certainly does not for RGB said someone from blackmagic. He was sayin you can't get 10 bit out of RGB 422.

But i seriously doubt we're getting RGB out of the MM, so they may be talking about 4;4;4 video sampling for HDMI in the tech specs, it does not matter if the only thing it can output is 4:2:2.
So to me, it does seems as you said that the card is only outputting 4:2:2 YUV (but then why talk about 4:4:4 video sampling ?)

I understand that the card and the monitor "talks" to one another, but if my setup is made to YUV 422, i should be getting 10 bits, so the problem lies elsewhere.

Is there a a way to be absolutely sure that i am not getting those 10 bits ?
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MatthieuAbily

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Re: UltraStudio Mini Monitor Thunderbolt 2 - YUV 422 ?

PostWed Apr 07, 2021 11:25 pm

I'm quite sure i dont have 10 bits.

I used a moving scale test, and when unchecking "use 10 bit viewer if availaible", the result is quite close to what i have on the EIZO...

And when checked on, everything is smoother on the mac, so i guess there is that.
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: UltraStudio Mini Monitor Thunderbolt 2 - YUV 422 ?

PostWed Apr 07, 2021 11:33 pm

I think we know now that card is always 4:2:2 (by testing and based on the spec).

Problem is that with HDMI chip 1.3a 10bit for 4:2:2 is not allowed (only 8bit). If card or Eizo use this HDMI specced chip then this may be the issue.

Odyssey 7Q+ showing 10bit value is not a prove as it may be taking input signal and always normalising it to 10bit. Not good enough prove. You would need to take same image, force 8bit preview in Resolve and then check if values are 8bit or still 10bit based.

You have to wait for Eizo to confirm if YUV 4:2:2 10bit is supported in video mode.
If so, then it means that either BM always sends just 8bit YUV 4:2:2 or that negotiation between BM and Eizo don't establish 10bit but only 8bit (eg. BM EDID info doesn't mention 10bit YUV 422 mode) and unfortunately you can't really change it.

Your only choice then would be to get SDI to HDMI converter which you know will properly work with Eizo, eg. something like AJA Hi5-Plus (which should work as you can force it to different modes).
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MatthieuAbily

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Re: UltraStudio Mini Monitor Thunderbolt 2 - YUV 422 ?

PostThu Apr 08, 2021 4:00 pm

So we can establish two things :
first as you said, the card only output 4:2:2.
But, the card may output RGB instead of YUV if asked by the Eizo (PC mode in administrator settings, all of that seems to make sense to me).
In this mode, the monitor is said to only have 8 bits supports but it does not matter since blackmagic say that the card only output 10 bits in YUV

Eizo guys seemed to think that 10 bit was supported in PC and Video mode, contrary to what the manual was saying, so i think we can assume that the eizo is supposed to accept 10 bits YUV 422 when supplied with deep colour support ? something the blackmagic specifically don't support on this MM.

Either way :
- the eizo may no be supporting 10 bits yuv 422 - (it seems to do it with YUV 444 so i doubt that this is a minitor limitation)
- the MM may not be outputting it (which i doubt)
- something else is happening, surely related to deep colour / or the HDMI norm is just not supposed to transfer 10 bits YUv out of 1.3.

I also have another choice : changing for the MM 3G.

what do you think ? either way thanks for the time and research andrew, i hope youre doing fine wherever you are
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: UltraStudio Mini Monitor Thunderbolt 2 - YUV 422 ?

PostThu Apr 08, 2021 5:48 pm

Yes, 3G is based on very different HDMI chipset (2.0a). It does 10bit RGB. I expect it to work better, but with BM you never know :) Price is good though.

HDMI Color Precision
10, 12-bit RGB 4:4:4 up to 1080p30, 8-bit RGB 4:4:4 and 12-bit YUV 4:2:2 in all standards.

is actually some prove that your current card simply doesn't support 10bit over HDMI (regardless what BM spec says).
It's because card doesn't support RGB ( maybe with exception to RGB 8bit as HDMI mandates this for any HDMI device) and because it most likely uses chip, which by the spec does not allow 10bit YUV 4:2:2 output.

3G model has also no 10bit 4:2:2 YUV (for high fps), but because it's 2.0 chip then it actually does 12bit for YUV 4:2:2 (+ it supports 10,12 bit for RGB <30p).
All of this is in line with HDMI 1.4.a (carried over to higher spec) spec which compared to 1.3a spec added 4:2:2 YUV "DeepColor" support as 36bit pixel format (so 12bit per channel).

So maybe current card does/could support 10bit over HDMI, but due to its limitation there is simply no HDMI mode which could carry this to your monitor. I think I've seen this on one of the AJA converters as well, where 10bit RGB was supported, but 4:2:2 YUV 10bit wasn't. It's probably all down to 1.3 HDMI spec limits.

Spec 1.4a says:
"YCBCR 4:2:2 is also 36-bit mode but does not require the further use of the Deep Color modes described in section 6.5.2 and 6.5.3"

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