Should clients review remote grades on the iphone?

Do you have questions about Desktop Video, Converters, Routers and Monitoring?
  • Author
  • Message
Offline

AlanMahon

  • Posts: 38
  • Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2017 6:29 pm
  • Location: London

Should clients review remote grades on the iphone?

PostThu Apr 01, 2021 8:58 am

Hi


I am wondering whether to ask clients to review grades on their iphone?

This question, "On what screen should clients review remote grades?" has been puzzling me for a long time.
And now my work is 100% remote, it has become a bigger issue.
On every project I recieve feedback from multiple individuals scattered across the globe.
Some of the people are technical , some are creative, some are clients and occasionally one is a celebrity.

I need some sort of system whereby I try to get all these people to look on a screen to crit the work, when I have no real power over them, and their level of compliance to my requests is low.

I currently run an iphone as part of my grading setup, so I can see the image on my reference monitor (CM171)
Apple has done an excellent job of colour calibration, and I think that the images are similar enough that a feedback from one screen is very likely to be the same as feedback from the other. The OLED screen versions (X, 11, 12) are particularly good

I think that there are FOUR arguments for using the iphone as a feedback tool:

ACCURACY
A late model iphone screen is probably more colour accurate than any other consumer device that the viewer will have to hand.

CONSISTENCY
By naming the iphone as the target, it is more likely that feedback from different individuals will be in agreement

CONVENIENCE
In the creative industry, there is a very high probability that every stakeholder in the process will have an iphone in their pocket.

RELEVANCE TO TARGET
All of my films go online, and online now largely means handheld.
The iphone represents not only a high proportion of consumers, (29% EUR, 52% USA) but is weighted to the premium (and therefore more valuable to advertisers) end.

(I should mention that I do a lot of work in fashion and beauty, so that also pushes the comnsumer viewer profile of my work strongly towards iphone)

I would love to hear what people think.

But just so to clarify my position, I am obviously not saying that the iphone is the best platform for viewing grades on - that is a reference monitor. I am saying that the iphone is the best platform that I can reasonably expect ask distant clients to use, in the real-world productions I am involved in, and that it is pretty good for all the reasons described above.

Alan Mahon
Offline

Uli Plank

  • Posts: 10656
  • Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2013 2:48 am
  • Location: Germany and Indonesia

Re: Should clients review remote grades on the iphone?

PostFri Apr 02, 2021 11:55 pm

I’m not sure about the iPhone, but quite a few professionals have an iPad for showing their work to clients. It is remarkably close to Rec 709. Of course, you need to deactivate the features for night mode and reacting to the lighting in the environment.
Apple did a great job on the recording side too, the camera in my iPhone SE II when shooting a color chart is spot-on when viewing it on the vectorscope.
Don't approach Resolve with your expectations from other NLEs! They are all different.
Resolve Studio 17.2.2 and Fusion Studio 17.2.1, macOS 11.4
iMac 2017 Radeon Pro 580 8 GB VRAM, 32 GB RAM
2018 Mac mini 16 GB RAM, eGFX Breakway RX 580 MacOS 11.4
Offline

mickymirage

  • Posts: 7
  • Joined: Sat Dec 07, 2019 7:52 pm
  • Real Name: Wyatt Weymouth

Re: Should clients review remote grades on the iphone?

PostSat Apr 03, 2021 2:48 am

I know that Company 3 has been using iPad Pros for these remote sessions.

But yeah, when I'm comparing the iPhone image to my reference monitor is pretty spot on.
Offline

AlanMahon

  • Posts: 38
  • Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2017 6:29 pm
  • Location: London

Re: Should clients review remote grades on the iphone?

PostSat Apr 03, 2021 3:20 pm

Yes the ipad has been popular for some years

I think that the iphone has caught up in terms of colour accuracy, and as my work is ending up hand held devices, I think it's better to view on iphone because scale is relevant to perception as well.
And also, its an easier ask for clients.

Company 3 would look a bit silly using iphones so I totally appreciate why they use ipad pro.

CHeers

Alan
Offline
User avatar

Marc Wielage

  • Posts: 7575
  • Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:46 am
  • Location: Hollywood, USA

Re: Should clients review remote grades on the iphone?

PostSun Apr 04, 2021 4:08 am

The recent 13" iPad Pro is not terrible. CO3 and the other LA companies using them go through a dozen of them or so, check them out, and try to choose the ones with the best overall consistency, then they try to set the screen up for color so that it's at least in the ballpark of a calibrated grading display. Some companies will set up a secure stream to the client that has a LUT in place to further improve the final appearance.

I don't think a phone will be as good.
marc wielage, csi • VP/color & workflow • chroma | hollywood
Offline

Ellory Yu

  • Posts: 2328
  • Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2014 5:25 pm

Re: Should clients review remote grades on the iphone?

PostSun Apr 04, 2021 4:56 am

Alan, I think that if you and your clients are comfortable with the IPhone, then you should provide them with an easy and non-intrusive setup so that their IPhone is as near calibrated as yours. My experience is pretty much similar to what others have said about the IPad.
MSI Raider X99 MB / Intel i7 5280 6 core CPU / 2 x AMD R9 390X 8Gb GPU / 32Gb 3200 RAM / Decklink 4K Mini Monitor / 240Gb SSD OS Drive / 4Tb RAID 0 SSD Cache/Scratch Drive / 24Tb 7200rpm Data Drive / Win 10 Pro 64bit / Resolve 17
Offline
User avatar

Mark Foster

  • Posts: 998
  • Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2015 10:59 am
  • Location: austria - no kangaroos +g*

Re: Should clients review remote grades on the iphone?

PostSun Apr 04, 2021 9:27 am

better on an iphone or ipad where they can't adjust anything
than on some grindy tv where they think bright and colorful are important


.
cMP 5.1 2x3,46/96GB/2x2TB 860pro/4x4TB HGST/SSD7101A 4x2TB 970evoplus/HP1344/BMD4k/Radeon VII
macOS 11.2.3

BMPCC 6k pro (7.3.1)
BMPCC 4k (7.3)+ MB speedbooster ultra 0.71 (3.60)
resolve studio 17.2.2
Offline

JonPais

  • Posts: 201
  • Joined: Fri Mar 21, 2014 2:17 am
  • Warnings: 1

Re: Should clients review remote grades on the iphone?

PostSun Apr 04, 2021 1:12 pm

Mark Foster wrote:better on an iphone or ipad where they can't adjust anything
than on some grindy tv where they think bright and colorful are important


.

most people’s phones aren’t set up properly either.
https://daejeonchronicles.com
Offline
User avatar

Mark Foster

  • Posts: 998
  • Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2015 10:59 am
  • Location: austria - no kangaroos +g*

Re: Should clients review remote grades on the iphone?

PostSun Apr 04, 2021 3:43 pm

JonPais wrote:
Mark Foster wrote:better on an iphone or ipad where they can't adjust anything
than on some grindy tv where they think bright and colorful are important


.

most people’s phones aren’t set up properly either.


i'm taking about iPhone, and not any android
cMP 5.1 2x3,46/96GB/2x2TB 860pro/4x4TB HGST/SSD7101A 4x2TB 970evoplus/HP1344/BMD4k/Radeon VII
macOS 11.2.3

BMPCC 6k pro (7.3.1)
BMPCC 4k (7.3)+ MB speedbooster ultra 0.71 (3.60)
resolve studio 17.2.2
Offline

JonPais

  • Posts: 201
  • Joined: Fri Mar 21, 2014 2:17 am
  • Warnings: 1

Re: Should clients review remote grades on the iphone?

PostMon Apr 05, 2021 12:49 am

Mark Foster wrote:
JonPais wrote:
Mark Foster wrote:better on an iphone or ipad where they can't adjust anything
than on some grindy tv where they think bright and colorful are important


.

most people’s phones aren’t set up properly either.


i'm taking about iPhone, and not any android

I’m talking about all phones.
https://daejeonchronicles.com
Offline

Uli Plank

  • Posts: 10656
  • Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2013 2:48 am
  • Location: Germany and Indonesia

Re: Should clients review remote grades on the iphone?

PostMon Apr 05, 2021 3:40 am

Android phones have wild variations in color quality.
Don't approach Resolve with your expectations from other NLEs! They are all different.
Resolve Studio 17.2.2 and Fusion Studio 17.2.1, macOS 11.4
iMac 2017 Radeon Pro 580 8 GB VRAM, 32 GB RAM
2018 Mac mini 16 GB RAM, eGFX Breakway RX 580 MacOS 11.4
Offline

JonPais

  • Posts: 201
  • Joined: Fri Mar 21, 2014 2:17 am
  • Warnings: 1

Re: Should clients review remote grades on the iphone?

PostMon Apr 05, 2021 11:59 am

Uli Plank wrote:Android phones have wild variations in color quality.

Really? Which ones would those be, and would you be so kind as to provide links to the tests please. Samsung makes screens for Apple and their phones rate very highly for color accuracy. I've never seen a review where there were WILD variations of screens at least not by any of the major manufacturers. Yet your statement implies that purchasing practically any phone not running iOS is like playing the lottery. At the time they tested one, the Samsung S20 was the most color accurate display DisplayMate had ever measured. Or are you saying that among different manufacturers of Android phones, there are MASSIVE differences in color? Your statement is very unclear.
https://daejeonchronicles.com
Offline

Uli Plank

  • Posts: 10656
  • Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2013 2:48 am
  • Location: Germany and Indonesia

Re: Should clients review remote grades on the iphone?

PostMon Apr 05, 2021 6:39 pm

Wild variations means: some are excellent, some are crap, some are between those extremes.
Feel free to do your own research.
Don't approach Resolve with your expectations from other NLEs! They are all different.
Resolve Studio 17.2.2 and Fusion Studio 17.2.1, macOS 11.4
iMac 2017 Radeon Pro 580 8 GB VRAM, 32 GB RAM
2018 Mac mini 16 GB RAM, eGFX Breakway RX 580 MacOS 11.4
Offline

JonPais

  • Posts: 201
  • Joined: Fri Mar 21, 2014 2:17 am
  • Warnings: 1

Re: Should clients review remote grades on the iphone?

PostMon Apr 05, 2021 9:24 pm

Uli Plank wrote:Wild variations means: some are excellent, some are crap, some are between those extremes.
Feel free to do your own research.

Okay, so that's a non-answer. Thanks for your input!
https://daejeonchronicles.com
Offline
User avatar

Marc Wielage

  • Posts: 7575
  • Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:46 am
  • Location: Hollywood, USA

Re: Should clients review remote grades on the iphone?

PostTue Apr 06, 2021 4:30 am

Uli Plank wrote:Wild variations means: some are excellent, some are crap, some are between those extremes.

That's my experience as well. With Apple iPhones and iPads, you have the added variation of TrueTone, Night Shift, as well as brightness that's adjustable on a sliding scale from nearly black (invisible) to extremely bright and overblown. If you have no idea what the client is seeing, the results will be uneven and unpredictable at most.
marc wielage, csi • VP/color & workflow • chroma | hollywood
Offline

JonPais

  • Posts: 201
  • Joined: Fri Mar 21, 2014 2:17 am
  • Warnings: 1

Re: Should clients review remote grades on the iphone?

PostTue Apr 06, 2021 7:14 am

Marc Wielage wrote:
Uli Plank wrote:Wild variations means: some are excellent, some are crap, some are between those extremes.

That's my experience as well. With Apple iPhones and iPads, you have the added variation of TrueTone, Night Shift, as well as brightness that's adjustable on a sliding scale from nearly black (invisible) to extremely bright and overblown. If you have no idea what the client is seeing, the results will be uneven and unpredictable at most.


Of course that’s your experience Marc - because if you take every Android phone ever made, by every manufacturer on earth, from their inception to the present day, at every price point from a few bucks to a couple thousand dollars, there are going to be differences in color accuracy! Now, if we’re talking iOS, there happens to be just one manufacturer - from Cupertino - that designs them, so naturally one would expect to see more consistency among products across their lineup than between the tens of thousands of products by dozens of competing companies from around the world. Yet even my iPhone 7 display looks like trash when compared to that of my iPhone 12 Pro Max. So if we’re going to be talking smack about Android, we should at least be comparing the flagship smartphones by the most tech savvy companies in the world at the same price categories as those of Apple’s mobile devices. And as it turns out, among manufacturers that compete with Apple, Google, OnePlus and Samsung each make smartphones that, according to DisplayMate, “join the top tier of smartphone displays which all provide close to textbook perfect calibration accuracy and performance that is Visually Indistinguishable From Perfect.”
https://daejeonchronicles.com
Offline

Uli Plank

  • Posts: 10656
  • Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2013 2:48 am
  • Location: Germany and Indonesia

Re: Should clients review remote grades on the iphone?

PostTue Apr 06, 2021 2:33 pm

Right. Until the user changes his/her settings.

So, just take a bunch of top-tier smartphones, adjust them properly and give them to the clients.
Wait, how can you stop them from changing settings again?

A pretty moot discussion, IMHO. I'm not arguing about any brand or platform being better or worse, but how you can be sure that the other side is seeing what you see. Or do I misunderstand the thread title?
Don't approach Resolve with your expectations from other NLEs! They are all different.
Resolve Studio 17.2.2 and Fusion Studio 17.2.1, macOS 11.4
iMac 2017 Radeon Pro 580 8 GB VRAM, 32 GB RAM
2018 Mac mini 16 GB RAM, eGFX Breakway RX 580 MacOS 11.4
Offline
User avatar

Marc Wielage

  • Posts: 7575
  • Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:46 am
  • Location: Hollywood, USA

Re: Should clients review remote grades on the iphone?

PostThu Apr 08, 2021 4:05 am

JonPais wrote:Of course that’s your experience Marc - because if you take every Android phone ever made, by every manufacturer on earth, from their inception to the present day, at every price point from a few bucks to a couple thousand dollars, there are going to be differences in color accuracy!

You ask a question, I give you an answer, which is just an opinion based on experience. One of the problems with asking for free advice on the internet is that sometimes, the answers you get may not be what you expected or hoped for. But it doesn't make the advice any less true.
marc wielage, csi • VP/color & workflow • chroma | hollywood
Offline

JonPais

  • Posts: 201
  • Joined: Fri Mar 21, 2014 2:17 am
  • Warnings: 1

Re: Should clients review remote grades on the iphone?

PostThu Apr 08, 2021 11:55 am

Marc Wielage wrote:
JonPais wrote:Of course that’s your experience Marc - because if you take every Android phone ever made, by every manufacturer on earth, from their inception to the present day, at every price point from a few bucks to a couple thousand dollars, there are going to be differences in color accuracy!

You ask a question, I give you an answer, which is just an opinion based on experience. One of the problems with asking for free advice on the internet is that sometimes, the answers you get may not be what you expected or hoped for. But it doesn't make the advice any less true.

AFAIK no one was asking for an opinion on Android. The OP specifically mentions iPhones.
https://daejeonchronicles.com
Offline

Andrew Kolakowski

  • Posts: 7480
  • Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:20 am
  • Location: Poland

Re: Should clients review remote grades on the iphone?

PostThu Apr 08, 2021 1:34 pm

Marc Wielage wrote:The recent 13" iPad Pro is not terrible. CO3 and the other LA companies using them go through a dozen of them or so, check them out, and try to choose the ones with the best overall consistency, then they try to set the screen up for color so that it's at least in the ballpark of a calibrated grading display. Some companies will set up a secure stream to the client that has a LUT in place to further improve the final appearance.

I don't think a phone will be as good.


Why?
It's actually opposite. Smaller screen= easier to keep consistency.
Check reports from random testing- they all came very good (even if you may not trust some of them).

Reason why iPads are used if for size mainly (accuracy aside). Phone are just tiny when it comes to watching video.
Last edited by Andrew Kolakowski on Thu Apr 08, 2021 1:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Offline

Andrew Kolakowski

  • Posts: 7480
  • Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:20 am
  • Location: Poland

Re: Should clients review remote grades on the iphone?

PostThu Apr 08, 2021 1:37 pm

Marc Wielage wrote:
Uli Plank wrote:Wild variations means: some are excellent, some are crap, some are between those extremes.

That's my experience as well. With Apple iPhones and iPads, you have the added variation of TrueTone, Night Shift, as well as brightness that's adjustable on a sliding scale from nearly black (invisible) to extremely bright and overblown. If you have no idea what the client is seeing, the results will be uneven and unpredictable at most.


Your 2nd choice is client not seeing anything. Up to you :D

Unfortunately Resolve is not near be on time with remote grading where you could actually push your image (even if fairly heavily compressed, but accurate) to your other studio, which could receive it and show client on proper monitor. You can do it, but as totally separate process to Resolve, which involves at least some knowledge and money.
Offline

AlanMahon

  • Posts: 38
  • Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2017 6:29 pm
  • Location: London

Re: Should clients review remote grades on the iphone?

PostThu Apr 08, 2021 3:31 pm

according to DisplayMate, “join the top tier of smartphone displays which all provide close to textbook perfect calibration accuracy and performance that is Visually Indistinguishable From Perfect.”[/quote]

Thanks for that reference to Displaymate

A lot of great information, in an incredibly user-unfriendly format, but really useful

Alan
Offline

Andrew Kolakowski

  • Posts: 7480
  • Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:20 am
  • Location: Poland

Re: Should clients review remote grades on the iphone?

PostThu Apr 08, 2021 3:53 pm

You have to watch gamma though.
Not sure how iPad/Phone handle it, but compare visually against your grading scree that gamma is correct.
Compare your final files which you will be sending to client- not some earlier version etc (eg. don't compare Resolve output and then send encode from ffmpeg etc.).
Offline
User avatar

Marc Wielage

  • Posts: 7575
  • Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:46 am
  • Location: Hollywood, USA

Re: Should clients review remote grades on the iphone?

PostFri Apr 09, 2021 11:10 am

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:Your 2nd choice is client not seeing anything. Up to you.

Naw, we have it under control. We either do it via Frame.io on a daily (delayed) basis, or we do it in real-time via Streambox. The real problem is getting the client a calibrated display, but one of our iPad Pros will work in a pinch. Just not an iPhone.
marc wielage, csi • VP/color & workflow • chroma | hollywood
Offline
User avatar

roger.magnusson

  • Posts: 1802
  • Joined: Wed Sep 23, 2015 4:58 pm

Re: Should clients review remote grades on the iphone?

PostFri Apr 09, 2021 11:55 am

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:Unfortunately Resolve is not near be on time with remote grading where you could actually push your image (even if fairly heavily compressed, but accurate) to your other studio, which could receive it and show client on proper monitor. You can do it, but as totally separate process to Resolve, which involves at least some knowledge and money.


If you can accept that you're sending an unencrypted stream (only protected by a password key) you can do it for free with OBS or almost free (if you want to use the output from a DeckLink/UltraStudio, but it's not strictly necessary with OBS since it can capture the GPU output).

Use OBS to turn your live video into an rtmp video stream, then using a proxy server application like nginx-rtmp (running either locally or on some other computer, virtual computer or Docker image) you can turn that stream into something a remote VLC client can play. We did this over the internet with about 3-4 seconds delay.

We also tried an ATEM Mini Pro connected to a DeckLink instead of OBS, worked great.
Offline

Andrew Kolakowski

  • Posts: 7480
  • Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:20 am
  • Location: Poland

Re: Should clients review remote grades on the iphone?

PostFri Apr 09, 2021 1:51 pm

I tested OBS and would not use it for such a task at all. Don’t trust it when it comes to preserving colours etc. It uses “compositing” which is totally not needed in this case ( adds delay).
I want plain reliable pipe from Resolve to the net. There are other tools way more suited for such a task.
It’s all very different then having it in the app as part of it.
If there would be at least NDI output then there are tools to pass this output as live stream.
Currently you would have to take SDI feed and pass this in chosen way. Not necessarily that easy/affordable.
Offline
User avatar

roger.magnusson

  • Posts: 1802
  • Joined: Wed Sep 23, 2015 4:58 pm

Re: Should clients review remote grades on the iphone?

PostFri Apr 09, 2021 3:34 pm

In our case I already have an ATEM Mini Pro, so no need for OBS. I just output from the DeckLink to the ATEM which encodes the stream to RTMP Push. nginx-rtmp doesn't change the video data it just exposes the RTMP Push stream as RTMP Pull, allowing any RTMP player to play it, like VLC.
Offline

Andrew Kolakowski

  • Posts: 7480
  • Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:20 am
  • Location: Poland

Re: Should clients review remote grades on the iphone?

PostFri Apr 09, 2021 4:01 pm

This is some "easy" and I assume accurate way.
RTMP is not very robust though on long distances and in wild global network, is it? Sound like bit old technology.
Offline
User avatar

roger.magnusson

  • Posts: 1802
  • Joined: Wed Sep 23, 2015 4:58 pm

Re: Should clients review remote grades on the iphone?

PostFri Apr 09, 2021 4:20 pm

RTMP is old yes. Using it here within Sweden where the internet infrastructure is pretty good we haven't seen any issues. For remote supervised grading sessions it's certainly good enough for us.
Online
User avatar

Jack Fairley

  • Posts: 1568
  • Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2016 7:58 pm
  • Location: Los Angeles

Re: Should clients review remote grades on the iphone?

PostFri Apr 09, 2021 6:48 pm

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:RTMP is not very robust though on long distances and in wild global network, is it? Sound like bit old technology.

SRT is the modern replacement, but many tools do not yet support it. I guess if you have a card with the capabilities you could loop your Resolve monitoring output back to an input and use that to generate an NDI source.
Ryzen 3900X 4.4Ghz
32GB DDR4-3600
RTX 3090
DeckLink 4K Extreme 12G
Resolve Studio 17
Windows 10 Pro 2004
Offline

Andrew Kolakowski

  • Posts: 7480
  • Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:20 am
  • Location: Poland

Re: Should clients review remote grades on the iphone?

PostFri Apr 09, 2021 7:06 pm

From SDI going to NDI is very easy. Many tools for this (even free).
I still would prefer Resolve doing it internally without any need for SDI to be involved. Using SDI output for this is so convoluted. Also- quite often your SDI/HDMI is already taken to feed monitors (so now we need splitter and things gets even more convoluted) :)

As I said- it can be done (companies do it), but it could be done way easier.
Flame is getting NDI support (as a side news).
Offline
User avatar

Marc Wielage

  • Posts: 7575
  • Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:46 am
  • Location: Hollywood, USA

Re: Should clients review remote grades on the iphone?

PostMon Apr 12, 2021 9:01 am

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:From SDI going to NDI is very easy. Many tools for this (even free).
I still would prefer Resolve doing it internally without any need for SDI to be involved. Using SDI output for this is so convoluted. Also- quite often your SDI/HDMI is already taken to feed monitors (so now we need splitter and things gets even more convoluted)

I think this might be a hardware opportunity for Blackmagic: to make a box that allows an encrypted high-quality feed (like JPEG2000) from one place to another, and make it an affordable (under $995) system. All the competing methods are a lot more costly at the moment.
marc wielage, csi • VP/color & workflow • chroma | hollywood
Offline

Andrew Kolakowski

  • Posts: 7480
  • Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:20 am
  • Location: Poland

Re: Should clients review remote grades on the iphone?

PostMon Apr 12, 2021 9:47 am

Yes, but JPEG2000 is going to be expensive. Jpeg2000 efficiency gain over other intermediate codecs is simply not worth it. Jpeg2000 is crazy demanding even on decode side which straight away means costs and complications. Even RED dropped use of Jpeg2000 in Komodo in favour of some DCT ( BRAW alike) codec. Not sure why everyone is trying hard way. If you want to go this route then BM could make a deal with IntoPIX - they have new wavelet based format called JpegXS (newer version on Jpeg2000). Much easier/more interesting is Cinegy and their Daniel2 codec.

There are 2 scenarios here:
- high quality feed (low delay) over more controlled link between 2 places ( sending few 100s mbit data is still not that easy between any 2 point on the net)
- more streaming alike quality ( will be higher delay) for sending to “any place”

Remote grading is bit difficulty as you need very low delay to see all the changes “instantly”. With compressed streaming you always will have delay, but this can be done much easier and using lower bandwidth.
I was part of testing very high quality 4K feed ( and uncompressed HD) between UK and Europe and it was working great (20ms delay both ways!) but it required expensive box and private fibre link ( which is possible only between some places and it’s also expensive).
AWS is stepping here as well with their remote solutions. This somehow helps with links, as you have "better" connection to their servers from different places in the world.
Offline

JonPais

  • Posts: 201
  • Joined: Fri Mar 21, 2014 2:17 am
  • Warnings: 1

Re: Should clients review remote grades on the iphone?

PostFri Jun 11, 2021 3:04 am

AlanMahon wrote:Hi


I am wondering whether to ask clients to review grades on their iphone?

This question, "On what screen should clients review remote grades?" has been puzzling me for a long time.
And now my work is 100% remote, it has become a bigger issue.
On every project I recieve feedback from multiple individuals scattered across the globe.
Some of the people are technical , some are creative, some are clients and occasionally one is a celebrity.

I need some sort of system whereby I try to get all these people to look on a screen to crit the work, when I have no real power over them, and their level of compliance to my requests is low.

I currently run an iphone as part of my grading setup, so I can see the image on my reference monitor (CM171)
Apple has done an excellent job of colour calibration, and I think that the images are similar enough that a feedback from one screen is very likely to be the same as feedback from the other. The OLED screen versions (X, 11, 12) are particularly good

I think that there are FOUR arguments for using the iphone as a feedback tool:

ACCURACY
A late model iphone screen is probably more colour accurate than any other consumer device that the viewer will have to hand.

CONSISTENCY
By naming the iphone as the target, it is more likely that feedback from different individuals will be in agreement

CONVENIENCE
In the creative industry, there is a very high probability that every stakeholder in the process will have an iphone in their pocket.

RELEVANCE TO TARGET
All of my films go online, and online now largely means handheld.
The iphone represents not only a high proportion of consumers, (29% EUR, 52% USA) but is weighted to the premium (and therefore more valuable to advertisers) end.

(I should mention that I do a lot of work in fashion and beauty, so that also pushes the comnsumer viewer profile of my work strongly towards iphone)

I would love to hear what people think.

But just so to clarify my position, I am obviously not saying that the iphone is the best platform for viewing grades on - that is a reference monitor. I am saying that the iphone is the best platform that I can reasonably expect ask distant clients to use, in the real-world productions I am involved in, and that it is pretty good for all the reasons described above.

Alan Mahon
There's an interesting discussion regarding clients whose intended audience will be viewing content on an Apple device from the perspective of a colorist and a DIT (Richard Muller, Berlin) who has worked on feature films and several Netflix productions.



Conversation starts at around 1:36:00

Charles Kline Just as the industry is moving in that direction towards HDR higher dynamic range, a larger gamut of color, Apple seems to be at the forefront for the masses and introducing that and getting the general public accustomed to seeing that so as as we said a few weeks ago, once you get used to seeing more colors the way that you do in real life what we're trying to do is get closer to what your eyes see when you're looking out the window when you see in real life because if you look at a color chart what we are used to in [rec.]709 is very constricted. You know it's very small to what the eye can actually see so if there is a bit of an upgrade to a P3 space the way that all the Apple monitors are, and iPhones and iPads, it's getting us closer to real life which is essentially what it's trying to recreate. As far as trying to grade with an iPad Pro, it's going to give you a great picture. I wouldn't suggest it, but that being said, I've said this before, I've been in sessions where the client knows that all their content is going to be viewed on an iPad or an iPhone or something like that and they will not approve anything until the file is sent to their iPad and they view it there and that depends on the client knowing the final destination of the the content.

Richard Muller I mean yeah, the way we do things on set nowadays I mean you have a lot of your reference sort of material is sitting there on an iPad or an iPhone or the director is literally when he's mobile watching the feed on his iPhone or like I'm taking stuff on an iPad to the cinematographer and saying 'do you want it this way or do you want it this way?' [...] so [...] even just on my slightly older iPad Pro, I'm getting enough consistency with the DOP's cell phone which I might have sent a WhatsApp which is quite a compressed like JPEG to image and like we're literally looking at stuff side-by-side on our two devices and up against the monitors at the same time. So absolutely, like the iOS devices are increasingly common in terms of like reference devices.

Alex Lindsay Definitely, if I'm in a situation where I'm talking to somebody who where we don't have any calibrated monitors if the monitors aren't calibrated I will trust my iPhone over everything that I see you know like, it it as accurate as a Flanders or a Sony, no. But is it more accurate than all the monitors that aren't calibrated? Yeah, absolutely, like it definitely hits the color a lot a lot more accurately in my opinion.

And there's this video with Dado Valentic and Dave Hussey of Company 3.



The discussion of remote work starts at 59:34.

Dado Valentic So tell me, how did you guys adopt, how do you work at the moment?

Dave Hussey Right now, I still come into the facility. I have a private entrance and I come in and we have a big building so I really don't see anyone except for my assistant. We had always done for many years virtual sessions. I was constantly doing color sessions to Chicago, Minnesota, you know, Miami - wherever - so that part of it I wasn't un-used to but now basically people are viewing on their laptops or ideally uh an iPad Pro and we get on a Zoom call and we do the session and it's been working very well. I mean, we've been doing it.

Dado What kind of software do you use for them to view the session? Is there an application or internal or what is that?

Dave Hussey We do stream box.

Dado Okay, and that runs on a laptop or an iPad as well, right? So they can see you know your live stream as you're grading - they can see what you're doing.

Dave Hussey Exactly.
https://daejeonchronicles.com
Offline
User avatar

Marc Wielage

  • Posts: 7575
  • Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:46 am
  • Location: Hollywood, USA

Re: Should clients review remote grades on the iphone?

PostSat Jun 12, 2021 9:02 am

JonPais wrote:AFAIK no one was asking for an opinion on Android. The OP specifically mentions iPhones.

I also specifically said that iPhones can vary all over the place depending on how TrueTone, Night Shift, and Brightness settings are adjusted. And the panels themselves can vary wildly. It's possible an Android could work under ideal situations.

We're to the point where we have a line in our client contract that says: "We only guarantee color quality on monitors and displays owned or controlled by our company." So that means we know the project will look good in our room, and we can loan you an iPad Pro that will look reasonably close. Beyond that, you're on your own.

Sound mixes are no different: earphones, small speakers, car speakers, TV speakers, large speakers, and theater speakers will all sound completely different from the exact same mix. We do our best to make sure the project translates between all of them, but there are no guarantees.

An iPad Pro via Streambox or Frame.io can look OK. In a long term situation, we'll deliver and setup a calibrated LG CX 55" to the client's office and let them look at that for HD SDR or 4K SDR. This can work pretty well for episodic TV and other projects that are finished over a period of weeks or months.
marc wielage, csi • VP/color & workflow • chroma | hollywood
Offline

JonPais

  • Posts: 201
  • Joined: Fri Mar 21, 2014 2:17 am
  • Warnings: 1

Re: Should clients review remote grades on the iphone?

PostSat Jun 12, 2021 9:12 am

Marc Wielage wrote:
JonPais wrote:AFAIK no one was asking for an opinion on Android. The OP specifically mentions iPhones.

I also specifically said that iPhones can vary all over the place depending on how TrueTone, Night Shift, and Brightness settings are adjusted. And the panels themselves can vary wildly. It's possible an Android could work under ideal situations.

We're to the point where we have a line in our client contract that says: "We only guarantee color quality on monitors and displays owned or controlled by our company." So that means we know the project will look good in our room, and we can loan you an iPad Pro that will look reasonably close. Beyond that, you're on your own.

Sound mixes are no different: earphones, small speakers, car speakers, TV speakers, large speakers, and theater speakers will all sound completely different from the exact same mix. We do our best to make sure the project translates between all of them, but there are no guarantees.

An iPad Pro via Streambox or Frame.io can look OK. In a long term situation, we'll deliver and setup a calibrated LG CX 55" to the client's office and let them look at that for HD SDR or 4K SDR. This can work pretty well for episodic TV and other projects that are finished over a period of weeks or months.
I'm surprised to hear you say that, Marc, because several months ago, I went to a number of local shops with the intention of comparing my own iPhone 12 Pro Max to the entire lineup of iPhone 12s and was astounded by their consistency. Your statement also contradicts the experience of the colorists and DITs I quoted, who marvel at the color accuracy of the current crop of iPhones. Would you mind sharing the link to a reputable site that has done side-by-side comparisons and measurements of a dozen or so iPhone 11 or 12s, documenting this wild variation?
https://daejeonchronicles.com
Offline

Uli Plank

  • Posts: 10656
  • Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2013 2:48 am
  • Location: Germany and Indonesia

Re: Should clients review remote grades on the iphone?

PostSat Jun 12, 2021 10:02 am

You are talking about two different things.
An individual user can adjust his/her iPhone in a way that it will not be consistent with another one, as Marc explains.
OTOH, an iPhone that is adjusted by the DIT or another trained person responsible for doing this can make them look pretty much the same.
Don't approach Resolve with your expectations from other NLEs! They are all different.
Resolve Studio 17.2.2 and Fusion Studio 17.2.1, macOS 11.4
iMac 2017 Radeon Pro 580 8 GB VRAM, 32 GB RAM
2018 Mac mini 16 GB RAM, eGFX Breakway RX 580 MacOS 11.4
Offline

JonPais

  • Posts: 201
  • Joined: Fri Mar 21, 2014 2:17 am
  • Warnings: 1

Re: Should clients review remote grades on the iphone?

PostSat Jun 12, 2021 10:08 am

Uli Plank wrote:You are talking about two different things.
An individual user can adjust his/her iPhone in a way that it will not be consistent with another one, as Marc explains.
OTOH, an iPhone that is adjusted by the DIT or another trained person responsible for doing this can make them look pretty much the same.
Actually, I'm understanding Marc perfectly.
He says that (1) individual settings like true tone will change the appearance of the image and (2) that the panels themselves can vary wildly.
https://daejeonchronicles.com
Offline

Andrew Kolakowski

  • Posts: 7480
  • Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:20 am
  • Location: Poland

Re: Should clients review remote grades on the iphone?

PostSat Jun 12, 2021 7:31 pm

JonPais wrote:
Marc Wielage wrote:
JonPais wrote:AFAIK no one was asking for an opinion on Android. The OP specifically mentions iPhones.

I also specifically said that iPhones can vary all over the place depending on how TrueTone, Night Shift, and Brightness settings are adjusted. And the panels themselves can vary wildly. It's possible an Android could work under ideal situations.

We're to the point where we have a line in our client contract that says: "We only guarantee color quality on monitors and displays owned or controlled by our company." So that means we know the project will look good in our room, and we can loan you an iPad Pro that will look reasonably close. Beyond that, you're on your own.

Sound mixes are no different: earphones, small speakers, car speakers, TV speakers, large speakers, and theater speakers will all sound completely different from the exact same mix. We do our best to make sure the project translates between all of them, but there are no guarantees.

An iPad Pro via Streambox or Frame.io can look OK. In a long term situation, we'll deliver and setup a calibrated LG CX 55" to the client's office and let them look at that for HD SDR or 4K SDR. This can work pretty well for episodic TV and other projects that are finished over a period of weeks or months.
I'm surprised to hear you say that, Marc, because several months ago, I went to a number of local shops with the intention of comparing my own iPhone 12 Pro Max to the entire lineup of iPhone 12s and was astounded by their consistency. Your statement also contradicts the experience of the colorists and DITs I quoted, who marvel at the color accuracy of the current crop of iPhones. Would you mind sharing the link to a reputable site that has done side-by-side comparisons and measurements of a dozen or so iPhone 11 or 12s, documenting this wild variation?


Dolby also performed measurements on iPads some time ago (older models). I don't have details but have heard summary as- "they are not that bad".
If there was a way to calibrate them they could be easily "enough" for many review tasks.
Offline

rNeil H

  • Posts: 65
  • Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2018 9:43 pm
  • Real Name: R. Neil Haugen

Re: Should clients review remote grades on the iphone?

PostSat Jun 12, 2021 8:07 pm

The comment above that supposedly 52% in US have an iPhone strikes me as odd. I would think that needs some clarification.

I know only a couple people in my area that have iPhones and of course they're heavy Apple fans. Most Mac users I know actually use Android as well, the iPhone cost more.

In some local areas or groups I would expect the higher iPhone numbers certainly. But I wouldn't trust that number countrywide.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
Offline

JonPais

  • Posts: 201
  • Joined: Fri Mar 21, 2014 2:17 am
  • Warnings: 1

Re: Should clients review remote grades on the iphone?

PostSat Jun 12, 2021 11:46 pm

rNeil H wrote:The comment above that supposedly 52% in US have an iPhone strikes me as odd. I would think that needs some clarification.

I know only a couple people in my area that have iPhones and of course they're heavy Apple fans. Most Mac users I know actually use Android as well, the iPhone cost more.

In some local areas or groups I would expect the higher iPhone numbers certainly. But I wouldn't trust that number countrywide.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

Statista has 52.8% of mobile OS for Apple in the USA. I’m a Mac user so it would make no sense whatsoever to purchase an Android device that is not compatible with the Apple ecosystem. The Galaxy S21 and iPhone 12 both sell for $799.00, so no cost savings for me to switch brands. According to the same source, when I moved to Vietnam in 2012 Apple’s share of the mobile OS market was 47%. It’s since fallen.
https://daejeonchronicles.com
Offline

rNeil H

  • Posts: 65
  • Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2018 9:43 pm
  • Real Name: R. Neil Haugen

Re: Should clients review remote grades on the iphone?

PostSun Jun 13, 2021 12:09 am

Uli Plank wrote:Android phones have wild variations in color quality.
JonPais wrote:
Marc Wielage wrote:
Uli Plank wrote:Wild variations means: some are excellent, some are crap, some are between those extremes.

That's my experience as well. With Apple iPhones and iPads, you have the added variation of TrueTone, Night Shift, as well as brightness that's adjustable on a sliding scale from nearly black (invisible) to extremely bright and overblown. If you have no idea what the client is seeing, the results will be uneven and unpredictable at most.


Of course that’s your experience Marc - because if you take every Android phone ever made, by every manufacturer on earth, from their inception to the present day, at every price point from a few bucks to a couple thousand dollars, there are going to be differences in color accuracy! Now, if we’re talking iOS, there happens to be just one manufacturer - from Cupertino - that designs them, so naturally one would expect to see more consistency among products across their lineup than between the tens of thousands of products by dozens of competing companies from around the world. Yet even my iPhone 7 display looks like trash when compared to that of my iPhone 12 Pro Max. So if we’re going to be talking smack about Android, we should at least be comparing the flagship smartphones by the most tech savvy companies in the world at the same price categories as those of Apple’s mobile devices. And as it turns out, among manufacturers that compete with Apple, Google, OnePlus and Samsung each make smartphones that, according to DisplayMate, “join the top tier of smartphone displays which all provide close to textbook perfect calibration accuracy and performance that is Visually Indistinguishable From Perfect.”
JonPais wrote:
Uli Plank wrote:Android phones have wild variations in color quality.

Really? Which ones would those be, and would you be so kind as to provide links to the tests please. Samsung makes screens for Apple and their phones rate very highly for color accuracy. I've never seen a review where there were WILD variations of screens at least not by any of the major manufacturers. Yet your statement implies that purchasing practically any phone not running iOS is like playing the lottery. At the time they tested one, the Samsung S20 was the most color accurate display DisplayMate had ever measured. Or are you saying that among different manufacturers of Android phones, there are MASSIVE differences in color? Your statement is very unclear.
AlanMahon wrote:Yes the ipad has been popular for some years

I think that the iphone has caught up in terms of colour accuracy, and as my work is ending up hand held devices, I think it's better to view on iphone because scale is relevant to perception as well.
And also, its an easier ask for clients.

Company 3 would look a bit silly using iphones so I totally appreciate why they use ipad pro.

CHeers

Alan
mickymirage wrote:I know that Company 3 has been using iPad Pros for these remote sessions.

But yeah, when I'm comparing the iPhone image to my reference monitor is pretty spot on.
B



Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
Offline

Uli Plank

  • Posts: 10656
  • Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2013 2:48 am
  • Location: Germany and Indonesia

Re: Should clients review remote grades on the iphone?

PostSun Jun 13, 2021 12:55 am

Me thinks everybody should get one of these then:
https://electronics.sony.com/mobile/sma ... p/xqaq62-b

Sony says it's a must have for professionals ;-)
So, without one you are just an amateur?
Don't approach Resolve with your expectations from other NLEs! They are all different.
Resolve Studio 17.2.2 and Fusion Studio 17.2.1, macOS 11.4
iMac 2017 Radeon Pro 580 8 GB VRAM, 32 GB RAM
2018 Mac mini 16 GB RAM, eGFX Breakway RX 580 MacOS 11.4
Offline

JonPais

  • Posts: 201
  • Joined: Fri Mar 21, 2014 2:17 am
  • Warnings: 1

Re: Should clients review remote grades on the iphone?

PostSun Jun 13, 2021 12:58 am

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:Phone are just tiny when it comes to watching video.
That's why they're not ideal - the visual perception of color and contrast are altered when video is viewed on a tiny mobile device as opposed to a television set. Unless of course, you're creating music videos or ads that will primarily be watched on a mobile device.
https://daejeonchronicles.com
Offline

JonPais

  • Posts: 201
  • Joined: Fri Mar 21, 2014 2:17 am
  • Warnings: 1

Re: Should clients review remote grades on the iphone?

PostSun Jun 13, 2021 1:00 am

Uli Plank wrote:Me thinks everybody should get one of these then:
https://electronics.sony.com/mobile/sma ... p/xqaq62-b

Sony says it's a must have for professionals ;-)
So, without one you are just an amateur?
I'm not seeing anywhere in the link you provided that Sony considers anyone an amateur who doesn't use the Xperia.
https://daejeonchronicles.com
Offline

Uli Plank

  • Posts: 10656
  • Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2013 2:48 am
  • Location: Germany and Indonesia

Re: Should clients review remote grades on the iphone?

PostSun Jun 13, 2021 1:12 am

Seems to be difficult to make a joke online and trying to bring some sense of humor to a heated discussion…
Don't approach Resolve with your expectations from other NLEs! They are all different.
Resolve Studio 17.2.2 and Fusion Studio 17.2.1, macOS 11.4
iMac 2017 Radeon Pro 580 8 GB VRAM, 32 GB RAM
2018 Mac mini 16 GB RAM, eGFX Breakway RX 580 MacOS 11.4
Offline

JonPais

  • Posts: 201
  • Joined: Fri Mar 21, 2014 2:17 am
  • Warnings: 1

Re: Should clients review remote grades on the iphone?

PostSun Jun 13, 2021 1:39 am

Uli Plank wrote:Seems to be difficult to make a joke online and trying to bring some sense of humor to a heated discussion…
I was just joking.
https://daejeonchronicles.com
Offline
User avatar

Marc Wielage

  • Posts: 7575
  • Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:46 am
  • Location: Hollywood, USA

Re: Should clients review remote grades on the iphone?

PostSun Jun 13, 2021 10:49 pm

JonPais wrote:I'm surprised to hear you say that, Marc, because several months ago, I went to a number of local shops with the intention of comparing my own iPhone 12 Pro Max to the entire lineup of iPhone 12s and was astounded by their consistency. Your statement also contradicts the experience of the colorists and DITs I quoted, who marvel at the color accuracy of the current crop of iPhones. Would you mind sharing the link to a reputable site that has done side-by-side comparisons and measurements of a dozen or so iPhone 11 or 12s, documenting this wild variation?

At some point in life, you have to decide which guru you're going to follow. If you don't like my opinions, find somebody else. But when it comes to displays judging color at our company, we'll only guarantee the final look on displays we own or can control -- meaning, displays we look at and can compare to our reference display. Again, TrueTone, NightShift, and brightness levels can wreak havoc... and there's no escaping that.

Bear in mind that I'm not trying to sell you a new phone. I'm just saying if you pull five iPhones out of the box and play the exact same video back on all five, they're all going to look different. Same thing with five Apple Laptops (or Dells or HPs or anybody's). Cheap displays are going to vary, and that's just life. If you want to shop around for a different opinion that agrees with yours, be my guest. One of the problems with asking for free advice on the internet is that sometimes, the answers you get may not be what you expected or hoped for. But it doesn't make the advice any less true.

We've owned every single iPhone model out since iPhone 1 in 2007, and I own an iPhone 12 Pro now as my main phone and like it a lot. Would I consider it ideal as a reference display? No bloody way. I do use it to just see if "there's picture and sound" on uploads, and it does tell me if the sound is in sync, if the files are named correctly, and all the files we need are up there. So it serves a purpose.
marc wielage, csi • VP/color & workflow • chroma | hollywood
Offline

JonPais

  • Posts: 201
  • Joined: Fri Mar 21, 2014 2:17 am
  • Warnings: 1

Re: Should clients review remote grades on the iphone?

PostSun Jun 13, 2021 11:58 pm

Marc Wielage wrote:
JonPais wrote:I'm surprised to hear you say that, Marc, because several months ago, I went to a number of local shops with the intention of comparing my own iPhone 12 Pro Max to the entire lineup of iPhone 12s and was astounded by their consistency. Your statement also contradicts the experience of the colorists and DITs I quoted, who marvel at the color accuracy of the current crop of iPhones. Would you mind sharing the link to a reputable site that has done side-by-side comparisons and measurements of a dozen or so iPhone 11 or 12s, documenting this wild variation?

At some point in life, you have to decide which guru you're going to follow. If you don't like my opinions, find somebody else. But when it comes to displays judging color at our company, we'll only guarantee the final look on displays we own or can control -- meaning, displays we look at and can compare to our reference display. Again, TrueTone, NightShift, and brightness levels can wreak havoc... and there's no escaping that.

Bear in mind that I'm not trying to sell you a new phone. I'm just saying if you pull five iPhones out of the box and play the exact same video back on all five, they're all going to look different. Same thing with five Apple Laptops (or Dells or HPs or anybody's). Cheap displays are going to vary, and that's just life. If you want to shop around for a different opinion that agrees with yours, be my guest. One of the problems with asking for free advice on the internet is that sometimes, the answers you get may not be what you expected or hoped for. But it doesn't make the advice any less true.

We've owned every single iPhone model out since iPhone 1 in 2007, and I own an iPhone 12 Pro now as my main phone and like it a lot. Would I consider it ideal as a reference display? No bloody way. I do use it to just see if "there's picture and sound" on uploads, and it does tell me if the sound is in sync, if the files are named correctly, and all the files we need are up there. So it serves a purpose.
So it's not a fact - thanks for the clarification.
https://daejeonchronicles.com
Offline

Hendrik Proosa

  • Posts: 1808
  • Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 6:53 am
  • Location: Estonia

Re: Should clients review remote grades on the iphone?

PostMon Jun 14, 2021 12:06 pm

Let me put it this way: reference monitor is not used for convincing (most) clients. It is used for convincing yourself. For clients, ”reference” doesn’t mean the same thing in a lot of cases. For them, their ”reference ground truth” can easily be the iPhone screen. There are just two ways around it as far as I can see: a) educate the client or b) give them what they think they want without steering too far off the cliff.
I do stuff.
Next

Return to Post Production

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 13 guests