Options for 4k 60p HDR monitoring

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provanguard

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Options for 4k 60p HDR monitoring

PostTue Jan 11, 2022 10:29 pm

Hello,
I would like to ask about all the options with different hardware from BlackMagic for monitoring 4k 60p HDR clips from Davinci Resolve Studio 17. The target monitor has a HDMI 2.0b input and supports 4k 60p HDR.

From the options I could find myself, it looks like DeckLink 4K Extreme 12G should do it.

What about the DeckLink 8K Pro? Would it work with the Micro Converter BiDirectional SDI/HDMI 12G to produce same quality (bitrate, color space BT2020, HDR metadata, etc) like the above mentioned model?

Are there any other options? I don't have thunderbolt in my in PC, only usb-c.
Last edited by provanguard on Wed Jan 12, 2022 1:42 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Davinci Resolve Studio 17.4.5
Video Assist 12G 5'' HDR, Decklink Mini Monitor 4K
Nikon Z6 II with BRAW, Røde Wireless GO II
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: Options for 4k 60p HDR monitoring

PostWed Jan 12, 2022 10:06 am

That’s about it.
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provanguard

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Re: Options for 4k 60p HDR monitoring

PostWed Jan 12, 2022 11:33 am

Can we expect a new Mini Monitor 8K soon with HDMI 2.1? Or Mini Monitor 4K+ with 4k 60p HDR?
Davinci Resolve Studio 17.4.5
Video Assist 12G 5'' HDR, Decklink Mini Monitor 4K
Nikon Z6 II with BRAW, Røde Wireless GO II
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: Options for 4k 60p HDR monitoring

PostWed Jan 12, 2022 11:56 am

We shall see. I expect SDI cards to play less and less important role in monitoring.
12G is already not enough and I don't see any work for 24G (original plan was to have 24G in 2015 :D ). It's all moving into video over data.
Non-expensive HDMI 2.1/DP 1.4 capable would be definitely useful. I would expect it to come this year (if not this year then when?).
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provanguard

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Re: Options for 4k 60p HDR monitoring

PostWed Jan 12, 2022 12:08 pm

I wonder if using an HDMI 2.1 port on an nvidia GPU (I have 3080) for monitoring would be possible with some custom driver magic.
Davinci Resolve Studio 17.4.5
Video Assist 12G 5'' HDR, Decklink Mini Monitor 4K
Nikon Z6 II with BRAW, Røde Wireless GO II
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: Options for 4k 60p HDR monitoring

PostWed Jan 12, 2022 12:21 pm

On Mac you get accurate monitoring, but on PC it's not so easy with Resolve. It's just not designed for it.
Nobe Display could help, but atm. it's restricted to Rec.709 preview only.

I would probably go with 8K Pro card (Extreme 12G is old tech) just not with BM converter (it's modern and ok, but not very configurable), but AJA one, so there is more features including HDR inject.
I assume for HDR project 8K Pro card+ BM won't pass HDR metadata to TV, so this is a problem. With AJA you can inject any metadata on converter level. It's more $, but worth it.
You can also stay with BM and then add Dr HDMI 4K for HDR inject- cheaper option.
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provanguard

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Re: Options for 4k 60p HDR monitoring

PostWed Jan 12, 2022 10:03 pm

You can also stay with BM and then add Dr HDMI 4K for HDR inject- cheaper option.


Could you clarify your recommendations a bit more?
Davinci Resolve Studio 17.4.5
Video Assist 12G 5'' HDR, Decklink Mini Monitor 4K
Nikon Z6 II with BRAW, Røde Wireless GO II
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: Options for 4k 60p HDR monitoring

PostWed Jan 12, 2022 10:17 pm

8K Pro+ BM Micro converter + HDFury DR HDMI 4K (for HDR inject).
Note that this setup does only 4:2:2 as BM converter doesn't support RGB mode.
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provanguard

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Re: Options for 4k 60p HDR monitoring

PostThu Jan 13, 2022 7:15 am

The HDFury DR HDMI 4K looks interesting, but I am not sure how the connection and configuration would be done. Are there any examples of usage with Resolve, 8k pro, sdi/hdmi converter?
Davinci Resolve Studio 17.4.5
Video Assist 12G 5'' HDR, Decklink Mini Monitor 4K
Nikon Z6 II with BRAW, Røde Wireless GO II
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provanguard

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Re: Options for 4k 60p HDR monitoring

PostThu Jan 13, 2022 8:15 am

Considering the overall complexity of having 3 devices in the chain, not to mention the price, to go from 4k 30p on my current monitor card to 60p, I will probably wait for the newer version of the monitor card that supports 4k 60p directly :)
Davinci Resolve Studio 17.4.5
Video Assist 12G 5'' HDR, Decklink Mini Monitor 4K
Nikon Z6 II with BRAW, Røde Wireless GO II
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: Options for 4k 60p HDR monitoring

PostThu Jan 13, 2022 8:54 am

If you can probably best option.
Timeline can be 60p and monitoring 30p. It’s simple drop every other frame.

Fury box is needed for HDR. It simply goes between BM micro and TV. It has webgui so you control it this way.
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provanguard

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Re: Options for 4k 60p HDR monitoring

PostThu Jan 13, 2022 10:33 am

Regarding the settings of the timeline and output, I have tried different configurations to be able to get 60p monitoring on the Mini Monitor 4K, without crop to the center of the image and without playback at half speed.

Here is what I did:
I set both monitoring and output options on the timeline to 1080p 60p.

I don't know if I have achieved the optimal solution. Dropping every other frame and maintaining 4k sounds better. I assume that the result would still look like real time speed, instead of a slow motion?

Would you have time to share few more details about the settings?
Davinci Resolve Studio 17.4.5
Video Assist 12G 5'' HDR, Decklink Mini Monitor 4K
Nikon Z6 II with BRAW, Røde Wireless GO II
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: Options for 4k 60p HDR monitoring

PostThu Jan 13, 2022 1:28 pm

You set timeline to UHD 60p and video monitoring to UHD 30p.
Setting HD monitoring to 60p should also work fine (at 60p not half speed as this card supports HD 60p). Maybe your machine can't handle it.
By default scaling is (still? - BM please change it) set to center crop. You can change it in Image Scaling/Output Scaling to "Scale entire image to fit" (untick Match timeline and choose HD). Just remember to switch back to Match Timeline before you do any UHD export.
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provanguard

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Re: Options for 4k 60p HDR monitoring

PostThu Jan 13, 2022 10:36 pm

I have attempted to configure the 4k 60p timeline with 4k 30p monitoring again, based on your suggesions. But I was not successful. I got to the point where the Edit window played fine, but on the Color window it played in slow motion. There are simple too many places where resolutions and fps can be configured. For the time being, I got back to the configuration where output and monitoring are configured to 1080p60.
Davinci Resolve Studio 17.4.5
Video Assist 12G 5'' HDR, Decklink Mini Monitor 4K
Nikon Z6 II with BRAW, Røde Wireless GO II
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: Options for 4k 60p HDR monitoring

PostFri Jan 14, 2022 11:09 am

Many places?
Project set to 60, playback speed to 60 (if you start with UHD 60p preset both are set automatically). Only place is monitoring to set to 30p.
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provanguard

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Re: Options for 4k 60p HDR monitoring

PostSat Jan 15, 2022 1:25 pm

Let me formulate the questions in as much detail as possible:

How to configure Davinci Resolve Studio 17 to be able to monitor 4K 60p clips using BlackMagic Monitor Mini 4K card? The card supports 1080p60 and 4k30p, so some extra settings are required to make it work.

Here are the places that I am aware of that can be configured and the settings provided allow to monitor in 1080p60, without center crop:

1. File > Project Settings > Master Settings > Timeline Format:
Timeline resolution: 3840 x 2160 Ultra HD
Timeline frame rate: 59.94
Playback frame rate: 59.94

2. File > Project Settings > Master Settings > Video Monitoring:
Video Format: HD 1080p 59.94

3. Right click Timeline > Timelines > Timeline settings > Format:
Timeline resolution: 3840 x 2160 Ultra HD
Mismatched Resolution: Scale entire image to fit

4. Right click Timeline > Timelines > Timeline settings > Monitor:
Video Format: HD 1080p 59.94
No scaling options here

5. Right click Timeline > Timelines > Timeline settings > Output:
Timeline resolution: 1920 x 1080 HD
Mismatched Resolution: Scale entire image to fit

My observations when trying different combination of settings:
In 4. and 5. the resolution must be same for the output to be full screen without any cropping. Mismatched Resolution settings have no visible effect in 5.
Setting 2. to 4k 30p causes playback in slow motion in the Color window.

The task I would like accomplish: Configure settings to allow 4K 30p monitoring, with skipping every other frame, with playback at normal speed in the Color window.
Davinci Resolve Studio 17.4.5
Video Assist 12G 5'' HDR, Decklink Mini Monitor 4K
Nikon Z6 II with BRAW, Røde Wireless GO II
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: Options for 4k 60p HDR monitoring

PostSat Jan 15, 2022 5:11 pm

All set in project tab, Master setting.
Timeline resolution: 3840 x 2160 Ultra HD
Timeline frame rate: 59.94
Playback frame rate: 59.94
Video monitoring tab: UHD 29.97p.
Frame iInterpolation: Nearest.
Now- go back to Playback frame rate as Resolve changed it to 29.97p (after choosing UHD 29.97p monitoring preset). Try changing back to 59.94.
When creating new timeline you leave "Use project settings" ticked.

If this gives you half speed playback (but you see 59.94fps in Resolve indicator) then it can't be done anymore (I think it use to work).

Same can be done when starting with New Timeline (without earlier project settings configuration)- then you untick "Use Project Settings" and set each tab (format/monitor) separately to desired formats.

For HD monitoring there are 2 ways (keeping project/timeline at HD or UHD and use Output scale), but best is to use just HD project and then all works as needed by default (all behaves as normal HD project- less GPU+CPU needed). When you need UHD export change project to UHD (problem can be with graphics etc. as you make decision for HD preview and this not necessarily will look fine for UHD).
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Re: Options for 4k 60p HDR monitoring

PostSat Jan 15, 2022 6:33 pm

what is the moving point to take 29.97 and 59.94 versus 30 and 60 frames today?
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provanguard

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Re: Options for 4k 60p HDR monitoring

PostSat Jan 15, 2022 7:44 pm

what is the moving point to take 29.97 and 59.94 versus 30 and 60 frames today?


My camera produces these frame rates. So I just keep them to avoid any sync issues. But I am just a hobbyist, don't follow my advise on this :)
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Re: Options for 4k 60p HDR monitoring

PostThu Jan 27, 2022 2:39 pm

electricity hasn't changed so 29.97 is still needed isn't it?
or is it because of 48hz audio?
engineers?
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: Options for 4k 60p HDR monitoring

PostThu Jan 27, 2022 4:23 pm

29.97 is useless these days. It was needed for analog transmission.
UHD should be shot at 60fps, so we can sooner forget abut fractional refresh rates. If you later need backward compatible 29.97 HD master you can always do simple slow down.
Overall it's time to switch to single fps as whole 50/60 split has no place in current world. Legacy in broadcast world is so deep, crazy deep. Time for changes.
When it comes to enforcing new DVB standard they have no problem with it, even if 50% people have incompatible TVs. They are happy to do it because they can fit more crappy channels into same bandwidth and make more $. All other improvements which require $ are "on hold" for decades as there is no money to be made there :!: Pathetic world.
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Re: Options for 4k 60p HDR monitoring

PostWed Feb 09, 2022 2:21 pm

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:29.97 is useless these days. It was needed for analog transmission.
UHD should be shot at 60fps, so we can sooner forget abut fractional refresh rates. If you later need backward compatible 29.97 HD master you can always do simple slow down. Overall it's time to switch to single fps as whole 50/60 split has no place in current world. Legacy in broadcast world is so deep, crazy deep. Time for changes.

You might want to look at the delivery specs for Amazon, Apple, Disney+, HBOMax, Hulu, Netflix, Paramount+, and Peacock. Last time I checked, none of them were asking for 60fps anything. Maybe someday, but not right now. You can make a case that 24fps has a look all its own and lends itself to a "film-like" presentation. Read their specs for yourself.
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: Options for 4k 60p HDR monitoring

PostWed Feb 09, 2022 2:49 pm

24fps has nothing to do with it- you don't get point.

We are talking about fractional fps which were needed for analog transmission. No one needs today 23.976 or 29.97, 59,94 etc. (except some outdated broadcast).
If you don't go to broadcast there is 0 point using those fractional fps, specially for UHD- use 24, 25, 30, 60. Plain simple.
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Re: Options for 4k 60p HDR monitoring

PostWed Feb 09, 2022 5:06 pm

Marc Wielage wrote:You might want to look at the delivery specs for Amazon, Apple, Disney+, HBOMax, Hulu, Netflix, Paramount+, and Peacock. Last time I checked, none of them were asking for 60fps anything. Maybe someday, but not right now. You can make a case that 24fps has a look all its own and lends itself to a "film-like" presentation. Read their specs for yourself.

+1.
How about let's just all have frame rates based on delivery and keep it simple.
Narrative/Documentary - 24fps
Web Streaming (i.e. YouTube) - 30 fps
Commercial and Sports - 60fps ~ 120fps
I have not encountered any film festivals asking 60fps or any fractional frame rate. All festivals, and I've been to a lot, requires either FHD 24fps or 2K DCP 24fps.
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: Options for 4k 60p HDR monitoring

PostWed Feb 09, 2022 5:33 pm

Who is talking about 24p vs 60p and film festivals or Netflix etc.?

It's about fractional fps and need to use them, specially for UHD content.
If you know your content is not going to broadcast then shoot UHD at 60p, not 59.94p (no one is talking about 24p here and its values). No need for 59.94p anymore. Even if you may create HD masters for broadcast you can always simply slow down to 59.94.

Netflix (and many others) take any fps (including 60p) and don't enforce any specific one, which is a good way. No silly conversions like broadcast forces you to do so. Times of NTSC vs PAL world should end as it makes no point anymore. TVs in Europe have been supporting all fps for years. Whole "fps" lock due to $ and selling rights are gone. Client doesn't care anymore about US vs Europe DVD release- they just want to watch content.

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