So how loud is audio supposed to be?

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aglyons

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So how loud is audio supposed to be?

PostMon May 16, 2022 3:34 pm

Going by what I have learned on various YT videos, specifically talking about resolve/fairlight and using the Loudness History tool. Audio should sit around -14LUFS which equates to about -2db.

I downloaded the sample clips for Pocket 4K Workflow (Fashion specifically) and almost blew out my speakers. The entire clip is, well, clipped! It lives in the red.

https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/ca/pro ... a/workflow

2022-05-16 11_32_41-Greenshot.jpg
Living in the red
2022-05-16 11_32_41-Greenshot.jpg (459.78 KiB) Viewed 5541 times




In order to bring that track down to 'recommended' levels, I had to reduce the clip volume by -15.6db

2022-05-16 11_31_01-Greenshot.jpg
2022-05-16 11_31_01-Greenshot.jpg (412.48 KiB) Viewed 5541 times


My understanding is places like YT are going to re-encode that to bring it back down to the correct levels.

I've always kept my audio down to the -14LUFS level.

So why is it that professional examples don't follow this same standard workflow?
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Re: So how loud is audio supposed to be?

PostMon May 16, 2022 4:04 pm

It sounds like you're making videos for YouTube.

YouTube doesn't have a loudness standard, but -14LUFS is way too loud for most videos. I watched the Blackmagic demo video that you're talking about. It's basically a loud hard rock music track with pictures. There's very little dynamic range - quiet to loud - in the audio.

If that's the kind of video that you want to make, maybe watch some videos about mixing rock music and learn about dynamic compression. Curtis Judd makes good videos on sound editing for video. If you aren't already familiar with his channel, you may find it helpful. Judd also has some videos specifically on Loudness Standards, what they do and how they work, which you may also find interesting.

I watched the Blackmagic video, but I didn't download the components and I don't use Fairlight. However, it's clear from your first screenshot that the audio is not clipped. The problem was your computer audio levels. It's a good idea to look at the waveform and turn down your audio before playing sound.
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roger.magnusson

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Re: So how loud is audio supposed to be?

PostTue May 17, 2022 9:25 am

robedge wrote:YouTube doesn't have a loudness standard, but -14LUFS is way too loud for most videos.

If you’re above -14 LUFS (BS.1770) YouTube will lower the volume. It does that by capping the volume of the playback app. Check “Stats for Nerds” in the YouTube player to see if the volume is capped or not for a specific video.
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Re: So how loud is audio supposed to be?

PostTue May 17, 2022 3:24 pm

I'm not audio person and if I think what it is that 1LU = 1db, then I usually would keep it between -10 and -12db for dialogue. Just in general, depending on what audio it is I'm mixing in, I try to keep it between -6 and -12db.
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Re: So how loud is audio supposed to be?

PostWed May 18, 2022 10:45 pm

Ellory Yu wrote:I'm not audio person and if I think what it is that 1LU = 1db, then I usually would keep it between -10 and -12db for dialogue. Just in general, depending on what audio it is I'm mixing in, I try to keep it between -6 and -12db.


The issue that Adrian is talking about is the overall loudness of the entire mixed sound track. From a loudness standards perspective, that isn't just dialogue. It includes the dialogue, music, sound effects and atmosphere, all of which are cumulative. Mixing for loudness brings all of these elements into conformity with a loudness standard, although with YouTube there's latitude because it doesn't have a required standard.

It's unclear what kind of video Adrian wants to make. In the Blackmagic example video that he linked to, there is loud rock music and nothing else. As I said, it consists of rock music with pictures (i.e. silent video footage).
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Re: So how loud is audio supposed to be?

PostWed May 18, 2022 10:52 pm

roger.magnusson wrote:
robedge wrote:YouTube doesn't have a loudness standard, but -14LUFS is way too loud for most videos.

If you’re above -14 LUFS (BS.1770) YouTube will lower the volume. It does that by capping the volume of the playback app. Check “Stats for Nerds” in the YouTube player to see if the volume is capped or not for a specific video.


Personally, I don't think that it's a good idea to make a soundtrack for a video on the basis that how loud it is doesn't matter because YouTube will lower the volume if it's too loud. I think that loudness should be a conscious decision based on what dynamic range one wants in the video and how one wants the sound components to work together. It also requires consideration of practical matters like what kinds of devices the soundtrack will be heard on. The latter, in the case of YouTube, means an awful lot of viewers wearing headphones and earbuds. I imagine that a good number of people have personal experience with a social media video soundtrack that has assaulted their ears, and are not eager to repeat the experience. I think that video-makers should be thinking about and addressing issues like this, not leaving it up to YouTube.
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Re: So how loud is audio supposed to be?

PostWed May 18, 2022 11:26 pm

This is a recent Curtis Judd video on loudness. Based on his own experience, and discussion with others who make soundtracks for video, podcasts, etc, he recommends -17 to -16 LUFS for most videos, and recommends reserving -14LUFS for pop music.

I believe that what Judd is saying represents the mainstream view, and indeed I think that there are many cases where one may want to be lower. There tends to be a lot less natural dynamic range in a talking head YouTube video than in a narrative fiction or non-fiction video. As he suggests, this is not just about volume, but also about dynamic range and how much one wants to compress (that is, reduce) that range.

There's a timestamp index below. Judd's summary comments are at 8:00.





Index:
00:00 Start
00:11 Summary
00:21 Are Volume & Loudness the Same?
01:01 Volume
01:29 Loudness
01:41 Waveforms & Amplitude
02:02 Amplitude short and sustained
02:35 Measure Loudness with dB RMS?
03:51 What are LUFS & LKFS?
06:02 How loud should your audio be?
08:00 Recommended Loudness
09:45 Please Buy My Courses
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roger.magnusson

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Re: So how loud is audio supposed to be?

PostThu May 19, 2022 12:25 am

robedge wrote:
roger.magnusson wrote:
robedge wrote:YouTube doesn't have a loudness standard, but -14LUFS is way too loud for most videos.

If you’re above -14 LUFS (BS.1770) YouTube will lower the volume. It does that by capping the volume of the playback app. Check “Stats for Nerds” in the YouTube player to see if the volume is capped or not for a specific video.


Personally, I don't think that it's a good idea to make a soundtrack for a video on the basis that how loud it is doesn't matter because YouTube will lower the volume if it's too loud. I think that loudness should be a conscious decision based on what dynamic range one wants in the video and how one wants the sound components to work together.

I agree completely, I just wanted to clarify that YouTube does have a "standard" of sorts.
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Re: So how loud is audio supposed to be?

PostThu May 19, 2022 3:05 am

No need to rely on third-party recommendations. All the streaming services have published targets. It's typically -14 LUFs for music sites (and youtube, as noted) and -16 LUFs, plus or minus 1-2, for podcasts. Netflix is -27 LUFs. Broadcast TV in the U.S. is -24 LUFs.
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Re: So how loud is audio supposed to be?

PostThu May 19, 2022 1:33 pm

So I suppose these are just recommendations as it appears that most don't follow them.

@robedge, I watched the Curtis Judd vids, both of them. I myself don't have Izotope so I do everything in Resolve (Fairlight).

I recently had an email back-and-forth with a music subscription site about a track being too loud. I explained all about LUFS and how the track was way out of spec, again living in the red even at the quiet parts of the song. Both the low-energy intro and outro were in the red. There was almost zero dynamic range.

I guess I'm mostly surprised by BMD putting out samples that clearly go well outside the industry's 'supposed' standards. It kind of made me re-think what I had already learned.

So do you think I should keep aiming for the -14LUFS or just keep it out of the red? I am confident that 100% of my work sits on the internet, mostly consumed by mobile devices where I was thinking, a little extra loudness/volume can help what with tiny speakers.
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Re: So how loud is audio supposed to be?

PostThu May 19, 2022 5:55 pm

Those are *not* recommendations ... if you submit to one of those commercial sources out of compliance, they'll either "fix" it themselves or reject the submission.

What folks do on private sites would be a different thing.
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Re: So how loud is audio supposed to be?

PostFri May 20, 2022 2:25 am

aglyons wrote:So I suppose these are just recommendations as it appears that most don't follow them.

@robedge, I watched the Curtis Judd vids, both of them. I myself don't have Izotope so I do everything in Resolve (Fairlight).

I recently had an email back-and-forth with a music subscription site about a track being too loud. I explained all about LUFS and how the track was way out of spec, again living in the red even at the quiet parts of the song. Both the low-energy intro and outro were in the red. There was almost zero dynamic range.

I guess I'm mostly surprised by BMD putting out samples that clearly go well outside the industry's 'supposed' standards. It kind of made me re-think what I had already learned.

So do you think I should keep aiming for the -14LUFS or just keep it out of the red? I am confident that 100% of my work sits on the internet, mostly consumed by mobile devices where I was thinking, a little extra loudness/volume can help what with tiny speakers.


Hi Adrian,

I asked earlier what kinds of videos you're making. The Blackmagic demo is rock music with a visual accompaniment, in other words a music video. Is that what you make, or something else? If you are primarily presenting music, are you also distributing it solely as music tracks in addition to distributing your music as videos with visual accompaniment? As I read paragraph three of your post, it sounds like you're a buyer of music, not a maker of it.

Knowing the answers to these question would make responding to your most recent post much easier. It would also be helpful to know what platforms you're distributing your work on. For example, the maximum loudness value that YouTube, Apple Music and Soundcloud will let you use is not the same. Those three platforms take different approaches to the issue of loudness.

On a technical note, I'd like to reiterate that the Blackmagic soundtrack that you show in your screen capture in post #1 is not clipped. I don't use Fairlight, but my understanding is that users of the app have complete control over the levels at which its meters show green, yellow and red. For example, I expect that it's possible to make its meters show red at quite low audio levels. It's unclear what the connection is, if any, between how you've got your meters set and specific values for LUFS, in particular integrated LUFS.

I enjoyed this comment : "I am confident that 100% of my work sits on the internet, mostly consumed by mobile devices where I was thinking, a little extra loudness/volume can help what with tiny speakers." I think that that is a fairly widely held view, and proof that the loudness war isn't over :)

Cheers
Last edited by robedge on Fri May 20, 2022 3:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: So how loud is audio supposed to be?

PostFri May 20, 2022 3:06 am

Hey @robedge,

My content is mostly educational talk videos with BG music. Both Youtube and Kajabi are targets for content. I know YT and Kajabi I really don't care. -14LUFS is probably fine for both platforms.

My Fairlight VU meters are default. I had no idea that there was even an option to modify them in any way. That being said, the loudness check does show a clipping marker on the BMD sample clip. Perhaps it's a pre-clipping warning. But it's very clear that it is nowhere near being close to -14LUFS. Try it yourself and see.

I think mostly I was confused. Still am really. Why is it the rock music video is fine to be blasting, well outside of the acceptable spec when the educational 'talk' videos need to be significantly quieter? According to Curtis, if that video was provided for broadcast they could be fined for producing it like that.

Anyway, great talk everyone. I hope this made us all think about our audio a bit more when rendering!
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Re: So how loud is audio supposed to be?

PostFri May 20, 2022 3:36 am

Hi Adrian,

For me, at least, that helps a lot.

I agree with Curtis Judd about loudness levels for the kinds of videos that you make. On a personal note, I've made educational videos for YouTube at -20 LUFS, with a Loudness Units range of 6-7LU, that have been well-received. For me, the Loudness Units range (which is basically dynamic range) comes first. I don't like what happens to the spoken word with more compression. That said, at the end of the day you have every right to make your videos at -14 LUFS if that's what you think serves your audience. However, I think that if you analyse the audio of successful channels making the kinds of videos that you're making, you'll discover that the audio for those channels is below -14LUFS.

I think that it's important to distinguish between regulatory broadcast standards for loudness and what's happening outside broadcast. YouTube's -14 LUFS is essentially a "sort of" maximum, not a standard. It also isn't true that all the platforms are the same. Apple Music, a major player in both music and podcast, is at -16LUFS and takes it seriously.

There's a simple, practical reason why YouTube doesn't have an actual standard. Most of its users don't know what loudness is about and don't have the tools needed to abide by a standard anyway. It's completely unrealistic for YouTube to have a loudness standard. That's why there are YouTube videos that you have to strain to hear, and videos that suddenly assault your ear drums.

Blackmagic has video material that talks about the Fairlight meters. There may be other videos, but the one below starts talking about the meters at around the 56 minute mark. Note that level metering and loudness metering are not the same thing. I don't know how Fairlight works, but on the applications that I use, level meters and loudness meters are different meters, and there's a process for setting an integrated (i.e. average) loudness level. If I recall, Curtis Judd talks about that process in the follow-up video that you watched, albeit with a different application than the one that you use.

One final comment before the video. Many people make good YouTube videos, including with respect to their sound levels, without using loudness as a measure. LUFS can be helpful as a tool, but it isn't necessary for a platform that doesn't actually have a standard. I suspect that most people who make YouTube videos are not using this tool. There are other approaches to setting levels for YouTube, and a good number of videos on how to do it.

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Re: So how loud is audio supposed to be?

PostFri May 20, 2022 11:57 am

@robedge

For the life of me, I don't know why you insist on attributing (and then refuting) views which nobody ever expressed. Nobody said the various platforms "are all the same" -- you're right that "it isn't true", but who said it was?

Nor did R.M. advise anyone to produce a track out of spec on the expectation youtube will alter it. All he said was that there are standards where you insist there are none. And in fact you still insist there are no standards, making your correction of a claim he never made even stranger.

As for the rest of the advice -- given your sources and limited experience in in the matter (e.g., "I don't know how Fairlight works"), the confidence and determination with which it's delivered is fairly shocking. There are professional standards which Fairlight (for one) can help producers meet, whether or not those standards are enforced or demanded by any particular platform. Hard to see why anyone would want to do otherwise ( resulting in "videos that you have to strain to hear, and videos that suddenly assault your ear drums", to use your own words) but each to his own.
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Re: So how loud is audio supposed to be?

PostSat May 21, 2022 1:20 am

My latest piece



Targeted -14(ish) LUFS
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Re: So how loud is audio supposed to be?

PostSat May 21, 2022 2:43 am

aglyons wrote:My latest piece



Toronto, my home town! My partner is in the process of opening a restaurant in New York and I'm involved in creating media content for it. I had a look at Ms. Tansey's social media and website. If you have a broad role in this project, I'd be delighted to discuss this with you; might be useful for both of us. However, I won't be commenting further in this thread. I've been attacked by John Paines in the past, including receiving highly aggressive personal messaging out of the blue, which was and thankfully remains a first for me. He's just mad at the world, and I'm not interested in playing along.

Cool that Claire Tansey worked at Chatelaine. I was listening to k.d. lang's Miss Chatelaine, one of my favourites of hers, only a couple of days ago :)

This is the 1992 music video for Miss Chatelaine, interesting to see the style of the time. Lang won a Grammy the year before, and was nominated again for Miss Chatelaine:




Nonesuch Records's more recent St. Tropez Mix (2021)



Her live performances are very different from these videos.

EDIT: Added links.
Last edited by robedge on Sat May 21, 2022 4:38 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: So how loud is audio supposed to be?

PostSat May 21, 2022 4:07 am

robedge wrote:I've been attacked by John Paines in the past, including receiving highly aggressive personal messaging out of the blue, which was and thankfully remains a first for me. He's just mad at the world, and I'm not interested in playing along.


Well jeez, I guess you mean me! I think our differences (and your differences with many others here as well, if we're going to be fair) spring from a misapprehension. Though the readership here is mixed, these are not general consumer forums, where industry standards are irrelevant and anyone, after watching a few youtubes, is free to interpret the field as he pleases, with all the certainty, and quickness to take offense when contradicted, as a prophet of yore.

Imagine amateur surgery, discussed online, as if there was no body of knowledge about how to actually do it. The endeavor could be fun, complete with youtube channels (Marques says, first cut sideways, then up!) but probably not for people going under the knife.
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Re: So how loud is audio supposed to be?

PostSun May 22, 2022 2:19 am

The old standard for movies used to be -14db to -17db.

BTW I had an old Behringer BCF2000 lying about and after setting it up for Mackie pro tools emulation I can use it as a general mixer in Fairlight.

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