Is BMD Film rec.709?

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Rickiriva

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Is BMD Film rec.709?

PostTue May 26, 2020 2:00 pm

Hi, recently I shot some clips with my pocket 4K in ProRes, and I noticed that the color profile on these clips is 1-1-1. So I imported them in Final Cut and it showed me rec.709 color space. Am I missing something or it is just that? I thought BMD Film was some sort of rec.2020! I love editing on Final Cut but missing so much color is frustrating in my point of view. So then, what workflow do you suggest for editing in FCPX? Shoot in ProRes, edit in FCPX, export XML and color in Resolve? Shoot in BRAW, color, export ProRes and edit in FCPX? Something else?
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Uli Plank

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Re: Is BMD Film rec.709?

PostWed May 27, 2020 2:07 am

Why not do it all in Resolve? FCP-X is a nice NLE, but roundtripping can be all kinds of headaches.
Of course, BRAW will give you more depth for corrections than any kind of Rec. 709. It is not Rec. 2020, but has all the information needed for delivery in HDR. I'd definitely stay in Resolve if delivery in Rec. 2020 is intended.

If you insist on working with FCP for Rec. 709, you can do a first light on BRAW in Resolve, export ProRes 444 XQ for FCP, edit and then do the final grade in Resolve again. Or offline only for editing in ProRes 422 and use your original files for grading in Resolve.
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Hendrik Proosa

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Re: Is BMD Film rec.709?

PostWed May 27, 2020 6:06 am

BMD Film is a custom log curve and custom gamut.
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Rickiriva

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Re: Is BMD Film rec.709?

PostWed May 27, 2020 11:21 am

Uli Plank wrote:Why not do it all in Resolve? FCP-X is a nice NLE, but roundtripping can be all kinds of headaches.
Of course, BRAW will give you more depth for corrections than any kind of Rec. 709. It is not Rec. 2020, but has all the information needed for delivery in HDR. I'd definitely stay in Resolve if delivery in Rec. 2020 is intended.

If you insist on working with FCP for Rec. 709, you can do a first light on BRAW in Resolve, export ProRes 444 XQ for FCP, edit and then do the final grade in Resolve again. Or offline only for editing in ProRes 422 and use your original files for grading in Resolve.
Ok thanks, I edited in Resolve for two years so it's not that I don't like or know resolve, but I prefer FCPX even if I bought it in January this year!


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Rickiriva

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Re: Is BMD Film rec.709?

PostWed May 27, 2020 11:24 am

Hendrik Proosa wrote:BMD Film is a custom log curve and custom gamut.
Yes I know, I wasn't saying that is rec.2020 but surely a wider gamut than rec.709 so I was wondering why my computer doesn't interpret it as rec.2020


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Hendrik Proosa

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Re: Is BMD Film rec.709?

PostWed May 27, 2020 3:39 pm

If it isn't rec.2020, why would/should your computer interpret it as rec.2020? Rec.2020 is a specific colorspace, there are no "some sort of rec.2020-s". There are many colorspaces with gamuts wider than rec709 :)
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Brad Hurley

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Re: Is BMD Film rec.709?

PostWed May 27, 2020 9:55 pm

What exactly do you mean when you say Final Cut "interprets" your footage to be Rec 709? Are you sure you shot it in film mode and not video mode?

Final Cut offers two color spaces to work in: Rec 709 and Rec 2020. The color space is set in the FCPX Library settings. When you're importing Prores files shot with a Blackmagic camera that used the film dynamic range setting, you should import them into a Rec 709 library, assuming you will be delivering in Rec 709. They will appear as log footage (low contrast, low saturation).

You then have to normalize your log footage (just as you do in Resolve) into the Rec709 color space. Resolve has a number of ways to do that, including Resolve Color Management, ACES, the CST plugin, a camera LUT, or manually (usually by using curves).

In Resolve I use Resolve Color Management to normalize my log footage or I use the CST plugin, but in Final Cut I think your best bet is to use a camera LUT. Final Cut has built-in LUTs specific to many cameras, or you can get the one specific for your BMD camera from Resolve's LUT folder (which is in your computer's Library folder under Application Support/Blackmagic Design/Davinci Resolve).

The camera LUT will bring your log footage into the Rec709 color space and you can then use Final Cut's color grading tools to finish the grade. They're actually very good now and should be sufficient for a lot of people's needs, but Resolve offers a lot more and honestly I find Resolve does a better job with BMD camera footage. And as noted above if you're shooting on a BMD camera that can shoot Braw you might as well take advantage of that since you'll have more flexibility and smaller file sizes. But then you need to process your files in Resolve first, send them to Final Cut, and then back again to Resolve for final grading. A lot of people do it, but it's tedious.

I think the only case where you need to use a Rec 2020 library in Final Cut for footage that will be delivered in Rec709 is when you're working with ProRes Raw. If you try to import a ProRes Raw file into a Rec 709 library you get a warning. You can, of course, create a Rec 2020 library in Final Cut and work with your BMD footage in that space, but unless you're delivering to the relatively few people who have HDR-capable monitors or TVs you'll still have to render to Rec 709.
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Rickiriva

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Re: Is BMD Film rec.709?

PostSun Jun 07, 2020 10:54 am

Brad Hurley wrote:What exactly do you mean when you say Final Cut "interprets" your footage to be Rec 709? Are you sure you shot it in film mode and not video mode?

The first Screenshot explains it, hopefully. I applied the LUT built-in for FCPX to this clip as it shows, but I was worried of throwing away so much color space doing it this way!
Schermata 1.jpg
Schermata 1.jpg (417.39 KiB) Viewed 1176 times

Brad Hurley wrote:In Resolve I use Resolve Color Management to normalize my log footage or I use the CST plugin, but in Final Cut I think your best bet is to use a camera LUT. Final Cut has built-in LUTs specific to many cameras, or you can get the one specific for your BMD camera from Resolve's LUT folder (which is in your computer's Library folder under Application Support/Blackmagic Design/Davinci Resolve).

Yes I know all of that, in fact last summer I edited a short documentary in Resolve and I tried all the color management options for it, as the second screenshot shows, I lastly settled on CST plugin.
My concern was about bringing to FCPX the most color possible, just that. Sorry if it's not relevant for anyone :D
Schermata 2.jpg
Schermata 2.jpg (450.87 KiB) Viewed 1176 times
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thermidor

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Re: Is BMD Film rec.709?

PostMon Apr 05, 2021 3:01 pm

I have the same issue and I feel your pain. My BMPCC4K is supposed to work in BM's wide colour gamut colourspace when recording to ProRes HQ in Film setting, but the metadata in the ProRes (shown in FCPX or QuickTime Player) suggests the Apple software sees it as being shot in the REC.709 colour space.

I too would like to know whether this means FCPX is limiting this footage to REC.709 colour space (even though it's in a wide gamut library), and also why it's not represented as wide gamut footage.
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Hendrik Proosa

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Re: Is BMD Film rec.709?

PostMon Apr 05, 2021 4:59 pm

There are no mov tags to properly tag custom proprietary gamuts and transfer functions. Unless you apply some color transforms (either manually or through color management), data is what it is, metadata does not change that one bit. Only when you start interpreting it as rec709 it becomes rec709 data.
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thermidor

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Re: Is BMD Film rec.709?

PostTue Apr 06, 2021 9:33 am

I think I see what you're saying; but in this case, if FCPX is interpreting the data in the ProRes file as lying in the REC.709 colour space, then it *will* incorrectly process the colour as soon as I start to do anything with it. So how do I tell FCPX that the ProRes file is using the BM colour space so it can correctly process the colour data within its working space (REC.2020 in this case)?
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Hendrik Proosa

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Re: Is BMD Film rec.709?

PostTue Apr 06, 2021 3:59 pm

Does FCPX have any understanding of proprietary undocumented BMD colorspaces?
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