A question about beginner level panels/future products

Do you have questions about Desktop Video, Converters, Routers and Monitoring?
  • Author
  • Message
Offline

TerACrew

  • Posts: 4
  • Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:55 am
  • Real Name: Tero Auranen

A question about beginner level panels/future products

PostTue Jan 12, 2021 9:14 am

Hi all, especially Blackmagic Design representatives,

I selected Getting Started catetory for this question, as there really was no better category of discussions for this type of a comment, I hope it was the right place to do it.

First of all, I have to say I became a BMD user only less than 2 years ago after purchasing their Cinema Camera 4K that came with a license for Davinci Resolve as well.

After that, I've been hooked!

BMD, your products are amazing, well maintained and always innovative. This will keep me coming back to you for most of my choises around cameras, software and other equipment. Resolve Studio is something out of this world! Thank you!

My recent purchases include the ATEM Mini Pro and the Resolve Speed Editor (with another Resolve license). Wow, again quality stuff!

I guess with these very very nice $250-1000-1500 price range beginner products (cameras, panels, input devices, software), many customers are going to eventually expand and upgrade to the next levels of things. At least I think I am, once the need for them increases and things become more "professional"....or one could also say, the products may even eventually make more professionals. This is actually a very nice setup for both the customer and BMD.

This brings me to my question: are there any plans to bring these beginner panel type of products also to the areas of color correction and audio? Meaning e.g. a panel even smaller than the Resolve Micro Panel, and something more beginner level than Fairlight Desktop console?

I know the Micro panel is already on the $1000 price range, but may still be a bit steep for beginners wanting to pick-up color correction with Resolve. A "nano" beginner panel in the $300 price point might do the trick! For the Fairlight console, a $3000 price point console will not make you try it, but maybe a $400 priced one will?

Just my two cents on this, maybe BMD has already though of something like this, or maybe not...maybe it does not make any sense. As for me, I just know that without an actual professional need or a company needing them, I will most likely not make the jump very soon. But with such beginner level panels, it would be a no-brainer and would surely grow my appetite as well.

Kind regards,
Tero Auranen
Currently using the products only for my own needs and out of interest to the art
Offline

Kays Alatrakchi

  • Posts: 1092
  • Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2014 8:22 am
  • Location: Los Angeles, CA

Re: A question about beginner level panels/future products

PostTue Jan 12, 2021 4:18 pm

If you're trying to make suggestions to Blackmagic, you might have better luck with sending them a direct message/e-mail. These forums are loosely moderated by BMD staff, but I wouldn't expect Grant Petty to hang out and take notes.

Regarding your asks, I think there is a diminishing return issue for BMD and at some point offering products for a lower price doesn't make business sense for them. Like Apple, they are trying to put emphasis on quality, with good builds and components.

There are some 3rd party companies which offer the products that you ask at a lower price point, for instance when it comes to the Fairlight control surfaces, PreSonus' FaderPort series is a more affordable option. Same with the color balls/wheels with the Tangent Ripple series.
>>Kays Alatrakchi
Filmmaker based in Los Angeles, CA
http://moviesbykays.com
Resolve 17, Mac OS X 10.15.7 (Catalina), i9 9800k 8-core, 64Gb DDR4 RAM, RX 5700 XT GPU, Decklink Mini 4K Monitor, LG C9, USB 3.1 RAID
Offline

TerACrew

  • Posts: 4
  • Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:55 am
  • Real Name: Tero Auranen

Re: A question about beginner level panels/future products

PostWed Jan 13, 2021 7:47 am

Thank you very much for responding!

I will look into the FaderPort series, looks like the thing for my level of needs. Thanks.
I've already looked into Tangent Ripple, the issue there is it's just the wheels, practically nothing else.

You might be right about the business sense. And surely I can only talk from my own behalf, but so far it really has been the cheapest price point products that have hooked me to BMD...and I know for sure that for several thousand dollar price level I would need a professional interest, rather than the current personal thing only. But, as said, being now hooked to BMD, they will be my go-to-supplier, if and when that need arises.

BR,
Tero
Offline

Uli Plank

  • Posts: 8871
  • Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2013 2:48 am
  • Location: Germany and Indonesia

Re: A question about beginner level panels/future products

PostWed Jan 13, 2021 11:19 am

For me it's impressive how far BM has brought the prices for panels down without reducing the quality.
I think you can't get anything better.
For a low-cost controller, but only for MacOS, have a look at https://posttools.tachyon-consulting.com
Resolve Studio 16.2.8 and Fusion Studio under MacOS Mojave 10.14.6
iMac 2017 Radeon Pro 580 8 GB VRAM and 32 GB RAM
2018 Mac mini 16 GB RAM plus eGFX Breakway Radeon RX 580
(currently my test system for DR 17 beta under Catalina 10.15.7)
Offline
User avatar

Marc Wielage

  • Posts: 7138
  • Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:46 am
  • Location: Hollywood, USA

Re: A question about beginner level panels/future products

PostWed Jan 13, 2021 12:27 pm

TerACrew wrote:I will look into the FaderPort series, looks like the thing for my level of needs. Thanks.
I've already looked into Tangent Ripple, the issue there is it's just the wheels, practically nothing else.

One possibility: use something like the Ripple combined with a macro keyboard, like the XKeys or an Elgato Streamdeck. You'd have trackballs & rings + programmable buttons, and I think you can get pretty far with that.

There are deals out there on the Tangent Wave (and the newer Wave2), and I've done entire features on them before and they're usable. They're not ideal, but considering the cost, they're fine and will do the job. I think I've used five or six different control surfaces in 10 years, and none are perfect, not even the $29,995 Advanced Panels. (The latter are about to get closer to perfect with the new firmware update and buttons that are just now coming out.)
marc wielage, csi • VP/color & workflow • chroma | hollywood
Offline

TerACrew

  • Posts: 4
  • Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:55 am
  • Real Name: Tero Auranen

Re: A question about beginner level panels/future products

PostThu Jan 14, 2021 6:49 am

Thanks a lot everyone!

For now, I'll look into these options.
All this is "just a bit of fun" for me at the moment...but I do hope it will become more.
If/when that happens, BMD next-level is the way!
Offline

Ellory Yu

  • Posts: 1971
  • Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2014 5:25 pm

Re: A question about beginner level panels/future products

PostThu Jan 14, 2021 3:08 pm

TerACrew wrote:Hi all, especially Blackmagic Design representatives,

I selected Getting Started catetory for this question, as there really was no better category of discussions for this type of a comment, I hope it was the right place to do it.

First of all, I have to say I became a BMD user only less than 2 years ago after purchasing their Cinema Camera 4K that came with a license for Davinci Resolve as well.

After that, I've been hooked!

BMD, your products are amazing, well maintained and always innovative. This will keep me coming back to you for most of my choises around cameras, software and other equipment. Resolve Studio is something out of this world! Thank you!

My recent purchases include the ATEM Mini Pro and the Resolve Speed Editor (with another Resolve license). Wow, again quality stuff!

I guess with these very very nice $250-1000-1500 price range beginner products (cameras, panels, input devices, software), many customers are going to eventually expand and upgrade to the next levels of things. At least I think I am, once the need for them increases and things become more "professional"....or one could also say, the products may even eventually make more professionals. This is actually a very nice setup for both the customer and BMD.

This brings me to my question: are there any plans to bring these beginner panel type of products also to the areas of color correction and audio? Meaning e.g. a panel even smaller than the Resolve Micro Panel, and something more beginner level than Fairlight Desktop console?

I know the Micro panel is already on the $1000 price range, but may still be a bit steep for beginners wanting to pick-up color correction with Resolve. A "nano" beginner panel in the $300 price point might do the trick! For the Fairlight console, a $3000 price point console will not make you try it, but maybe a $400 priced one will?

Just my two cents on this, maybe BMD has already though of something like this, or maybe not...maybe it does not make any sense. As for me, I just know that without an actual professional need or a company needing them, I will most likely not make the jump very soon. But with such beginner level panels, it would be a no-brainer and would surely grow my appetite as well.

Kind regards,
Tero Auranen
Currently using the products only for my own needs and out of interest to the art

I completely agree with your sentiment and request. In fact I have sounded that similar bell and even suggested a design for it here.
viewtopic.php?f=21&t=126739&p=692102&hilit=Ellory+Control+Panel#p692102

I hope BMD will seriously consider this.
MSI Raider X99 MB / Intel i7 5280 6 core CPU / 2 x AMD R9 390X 8Gb GPU / 32Gb 3200 RAM / Decklink 4K Mini Monitor / 240Gb SSD OS Drive / 4Tb RAID 0 SSD Cache/Scratch Drive / 24Tb 7200rpm HDD Data Drive / Win 10 Pro 64bit / Resolve 16.2.8
Offline

wfolta

  • Posts: 414
  • Joined: Fri May 15, 2020 1:12 pm
  • Real Name: Wayne Folta

Re: A question about beginner level panels/future products

PostThu Jan 14, 2021 3:50 pm

I don't think a nano color surface would work. I'm not very good at color grading yet but one of the things I learned from some of the experts in these forums is that you need to work fast to adjust things before your brain adjusts (about 20 seconds), and you want to adjust specific combinations of things at the same time.

Some of the third-party inexpensive surfaces have fewer controls that look just like parts of the micro panel. But they don't have the right combinations that you can adjust important combinations at the same time. Switching modes breaks the flow.

Going from Micro to Mini to Advanced lets you live more and more on the control surface, looking at the monitor. Which is what a pro color grader needs. Switching back to the keyboard/mouse slows you down, and dedicated keys let you build better muscle memory. So in some sense, there are diminishing returns as you move up: only pro colorists really benefit.

So the question in my mind is: if you strip stuff out of the Micro to create a Nano, do you have the minimal viable combinations simultaneously available to give you what you really need? My impression is that some of the smaller/cheaper options let you pretend to be a colorist -- look, I have trackballs! -- but you're not actually benefitting because you've dropped below the minimal viable combination set.

I've certainly seen suggestions in these forums that put controls that should work together onto different banks of controls, rendering them useless. So it could be that a $300 Speed Editor can work because it has only one precision dial and the basic things you do in Cut to quickly edit fit well with the number of plain keys you can fit. But a $300 Nano color panel may just be a toy that provides a bit more precision with color wheels, but no other benefits over sticking with mouse (or trackpad or tablet) and keyboard.
Resolve Studio 17 latest, Fusion Studio 17 latest, macOS Big Sur latest, MacBook Pro 2020 64GB RAM and Radeon Pro 5600M 8GB VRAM
Offline

Ellory Yu

  • Posts: 1971
  • Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2014 5:25 pm

Re: A question about beginner level panels/future products

PostThu Jan 14, 2021 4:35 pm

wfolta wrote:So the question in my mind is: if you strip stuff out of the Micro to create a Nano, do you have the minimal viable combinations simultaneously available to give you what you really need? My impression is that some of the smaller/cheaper options let you pretend to be a colorist -- look, I have trackballs! -- but you're not actually benefitting because you've dropped below the minimal viable combination set.

Yes you do. If you see the design I drew up for a Nano (look at the thread - like above), it gives you the minimal viable combinations to be productive enough. The Tangent Ripple is a good nano option because it lets you move wheels and balls simultaneously to adjust Lift, Gamma, and Gain. That's plenty of value already and is $350. The problem I have with the Ripple is that it is using emulation logic so when Resolve is upgraded to newer version, their software tries to play catch-up since they have no access to BMD SDK. If BMD will even consider making one that is just like the Ripple and sell it for $300, that's good enough for me. I can use it in combo with the keyboard, but it will make me more productive that just the keyboard and a mouse. I don't want to spend $1000 for a micro because most of the functions other than the wheels and balls I already have my brain muscle memory wired to using the keyboard and I don't intend to fully change my workflow. Now, if they make a nano with Balls and Wheels plus a few other knobs and buttons, that's icing on the product and I welcome it. This tool will not let you pretend to be a colorist - it's for colorist who just wants just a part instead of the sum of the bigger product to extend his/her productivity. ALSO, the micro is heavy to carry around. I've tried it a couple of times on field work and it is heavy to lug around.

So BMD, if you are listening, make us a BMD version of the Tangent Ripple - I think there will be going to be many happy color grading users - from novice to pro. I'll be happy with that!!!

wfolta wrote:I've certainly seen suggestions in these forums that put controls that should work together onto different banks of controls, rendering them useless. So it could be that a $300 Speed Editor can work because it has only one precision dial and the basic things you do in Cut to quickly edit fit well with the number of plain keys you can fit. But a $300 Nano color panel may just be a toy that provides a bit more precision with color wheels, but no other benefits over sticking with mouse (or trackpad or tablet) and keyboard.

I completely disagree. So that makes the Speed Editor a toy because you still have to use the keyboard for other editing functions, therefore why not just own the $995 Keyboard that has everything instead of just a $300 dial? That makes no sense. Different people have different ways of addressing productivity so the way you use your tools will be different from how I want to use it - and calling names like "pretend colorist" or for that matter "pretend editor" if using the Speed Editor is absurd.
MSI Raider X99 MB / Intel i7 5280 6 core CPU / 2 x AMD R9 390X 8Gb GPU / 32Gb 3200 RAM / Decklink 4K Mini Monitor / 240Gb SSD OS Drive / 4Tb RAID 0 SSD Cache/Scratch Drive / 24Tb 7200rpm HDD Data Drive / Win 10 Pro 64bit / Resolve 16.2.8

Return to Post Production

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests