Ultrastudio 3G Downscaling and Blacks

Working with Desktop Video v 12.0, Premiere Pro 14.9.0, Mac OS 11.1

I've run into two issues concerning Adobe Premiere Pro and the Ultrastudio Monitor 3G. Both issues concern the choice between outputting 4:4:4 RGB and 4:2:2 Y Cb Cr that the user finds in the Desktop Video Control Panel.

ISSUE #1 - Black Levels. If I choose RGB 4:4:4 as the output format, my grading monitor (connected via SDI) and it's built in scopes both show a crushing of blacks when utilizing SMPTE HD color chart. Essentially, the entire Pluge disappears into one giant black mess. The 4:2:2 Y Cb Cr option shows the Pluge correctly with proper delineation between each of the black levels.

ISSUE #2 - Downscaling. If I choose "scale down" in the Premiere Pro Mercury Transmit dialogue box which appears when you choose "Set Up" option for Blackmagic Playback, it only operates correctly if I have chosen RGB 4:4:4 for the output format in the Desktop Video preferences control. IOW, the preview output of a Premiere Pro 4K timeline will be scaled down to 1080p and I can see it on my external grading monitor. If, however, I have 4:2:2 Y Cb Cr selected as the output, the 4K timeline will only scale down the SDI output to 2K (as indicated to me by Desktop Video) and my external display cannot show it. I did note that the HDMI output appears to scale correctly (Desktop Video reads 1080p under HDMI).

As you can see, these 2 problems combined make it so I can't get an ideal set up here for grading, editing, and properly viewing 4K source footage. If I choose RGB 4:4:4, I get proper scaling but the blacks are crushed and what I'm seeing on the grading monitoring doesn't match the actual footage. If I choose Y Cb Cr 4:2:2, I get perfect match of the image on my monitor but I lose proper downscaling for the 4K footage!

Any help you can provide in sorting this out would be extremely valuable!

Shawn

Rawr, I may have oversimplified my problem.

It turns out that I do get appropriate levels with RGB 4:4:4 and Premiere, but only with 1080 timelines :/. (Nope, nvm, must have been confused with the freeze frame option - usually have it off. Definitely seeing a shift in blacks still.)

I took the same SMPTE chart (generated in Resolve) and placed it in both an HD timeline and a 4K timeline. Switching back and forth between the two results in blacks getting crushed on the 4K timeline and remaining proper in the HD one. All other settings exactly the same other than resolution. WTH?

Plus, one more bit of confusion (or perhaps a clarifying clue??): While having the output in Desktop Video Setup selected to Y Cb Cr 4:2:2, I discovered that a 4K, 23.98 timeline behaves differently on my SDI output than the 4K 29.97 one I was working with.

My display identified the "scaled down" signal from a 4K 23.98 timeline as 1080 25p before showing it doubled (the same image, squished vertically and doubled - like bad sync issue from the analog days). The timeline I was initially working with for my post above was 4K 29.97 and in Y Cb Cr 4:2:2 I was getting an "out of range" error when I selected "scale down" - which I interpreted to mean the resolution was incorrect because the Desktop Video status screen showed 2Kp29.97 DCI for the SDI and 1080p29.97 for the HDMI but perhaps it is actually the frame rate that is getting bastardized? Same thing happens with 2K timelines, btw. In Y Cb Cr 4:2:2, if it's a 4K or 2K timeline with 29.97 fps, my display indicated "out of range" on a black screen - with 23.98, it'll flash 1080p 25 before displaying the messed up image I described.

Any ideas? I didn't have these issues with the Ultrastudio Mini Monitor. At first I was thinking the black issue might just be the difference between Video levels and Data levels, but now it seems like something weirder is going on... Perhaps the black and scaling issues between the 2 output options in Desktop Video Setup are related after all.

Is scaling performed in Premiere or via the Ultrastudio device?

@shamer which monitor do you use? I might have a similar problem with an FSI DM 240 and the Mini Monitor 4K

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=133725&p=725291#p725291

I’m using a JVC DT-V17G15Z - a unit getting a little long in the tooth, but still relatively low hours given I’m primarily a DP and edit more frequently at client facilities.

https://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=133725&p=725291#p725291

Hmmm... just a scopes problem for you? I mean, I see it both on scopes and visually - the pluge is gone. Toggling through the SDI level options on my monitor doesn’t resolve it but it might just be I don’t have an option for viewing Data/Full specifically.

Working with Desktop Video v 12.0, Premiere Pro 14.9.0, Mac OS 11.1

I've run into two issues concerning Adobe Premiere Pro and the Ultrastudio Monitor 3G. Both issues concern the choice between outputting 4:4:4 RGB and 4:2:2 Y Cb Cr that the user finds in the Desktop Video Control Panel.

ISSUE #1 - Black Levels. If I choose RGB 4:4:4 as the output format, my grading monitor (connected via SDI) and it's built in scopes both show a crushing of blacks when utilizing SMPTE HD color chart. Essentially, the entire Pluge disappears into one giant black mess. The 4:2:2 Y Cb Cr option shows the Pluge correctly with proper delineation between each of the black levels.

ISSUE #2 - Downscaling. If I choose "scale down" in the Premiere Pro Mercury Transmit dialogue box which appears when you choose "Set Up" option for Blackmagic Playback, it only operates correctly if I have chosen RGB 4:4:4 for the output format in the Desktop Video preferences control. IOW, the preview output of a Premiere Pro 4K timeline will be scaled down to 1080p and I can see it on my external grading monitor. If, however, I have 4:2:2 Y Cb Cr selected as the output, the 4K timeline will only scale down the SDI output to 2K (as indicated to me by Desktop Video) and my external display cannot show it. I did note that the HDMI output appears to scale correctly (Desktop Video reads 1080p under HDMI).

As you can see, these 2 problems combined make it so I can't get an ideal set up here for grading, editing, and properly viewing 4K source footage. If I choose RGB 4:4:4, I get proper scaling but the blacks are crushed and what I'm seeing on the grading monitoring doesn't match the actual footage. If I choose Y Cb Cr 4:2:2, I get perfect match of the image on my monitor but I lose proper downscaling for the 4K footage!

Any help you can provide in sorting this out would be extremely valuable!

Shawn

You have to establish source of the problem, which I think in your case is Premiere.
Do same test from Resolve for start or play rendered bars through eg. MediaExpress.

In case of Premiere+BM key role is played by BM's panel settings in Windows control panel.

Premiere+BM scaling issues/lack of proper control were there from day one. This is somehow still not properly sorted, neither by BM nor Adobe (although your problems sound strange).

Yeah that's where it gets tricky - Resolve seems to force RGB 4:4:4 even if I select Y Cb Cr 4:2:2 in Desktop Video Set Up which works fine for Resolve - levels are exactly where they should be regardless of resolution and matching exactly what I see on a 1080 timeline in Premiere at Y Cb Cr 4:2:2.

I agree there are too many variables between my previous set up and my new one. Generally avoid both OS and Adobe updates until I just can't anymore because they almost always introduce new problems while rarely solve old ones...but now I'm a few versions ahead on both with a technically different output device. The only things that are the same are the monitors

I'm no Adobe fan, they tend toward a pretty solid internal Rec 709 standard with Premiere but frequently do stupid things. And I've used BMD products long enough to be both equally impressed by what they accomplish and baffled by some of the things they do as well... so this is a tricky one to assign blame to.

Guess I'll have to download FCP and see what happens in there. Probably be fine, lol...

Resolve overwrites BM desktop settings as far as I know, so if you want limited levels you set it in Resolve SDI monitoring settings (not in BM control panel settings).
Premiere is most likely different. It will send something to the card (probably hard coded) and let card do any processing based on settings in BM control panel. In theory this should still give good final results.
If you like Premiere I would rathe buy AJA card- for me this is way more reliable solution, specially when working with 3rd part host app.

Guess I'll have to download FCP and see what happens in there. Probably be fine, lol...

Yeah, perfectly fine in FCP. Doesn't matter whether I'm in RGB or Y Cb Cr or whether I'm on a 4K, 2K or HD timeline or whatever fps I'm at. SDI levels remain pegged to where they should be and there are zero scaling issues.

Too bad I can't stand editing in either Resolve or FCP X as they are at least technically accurate. Kinda stupid overall given that Adobe transformed Premiere's UI to match the old FCP, which was just a better version of Media Composer and Media 100 to begin with... what a sucky conundrum this presents.

Can't the BMD team just sit down and have a beer with the Adobe Premiere team??? FFS

Even if they do it then in few months next major release comes which may have engine changes and then things break again.
Taking into account fact that Resolve and Premiere are direct competitors beer could happen, but actual development not necessarily

Hello!

I just stumbled onto this thread because I am having this same issue with crushed / lowered black levels but my issue is showing up in FCPX. Has there been a solution found since this was originally posted?

I can see the difference in levels is occurring through the UltraStudio Monitor 3G (TB3) because when looking at my waveforms, the levels are consistent from Resolve to FCPX but when sending the signal via AV Output on FCPX I can see the drop in levels on my broadcast monitor which has its own built-in waveform. This same monitor also shows correct levels when previewing the output from Resolve.

I am running the following…

Mac OS 11.7.1
Desktop Video 12.4
FCPX 10.6.5