Your film on a big screen for the first Time

Do you have questions about Desktop Video, Converters, Routers and Monitoring?
  • Author
  • Message
Offline

drknsss

  • Posts: 222
  • Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2021 2:46 am
  • Real Name: Gordon Culley

Your film on a big screen for the first Time

PostThu Sep 08, 2022 9:07 pm

I just saw a bunch of short films today in a cinema and I was very surprised by some of the technical things I saw like a boom mic in a glass reflection, some really bad noise in daytime and low light scenes and much more. When you are watching your film on your computer monitor or even a larger TV I think sometimes you can miss these things when they make it to the big screen....,

I'm asking if any filmmakers get to see their film on a big screen before they send the screener to the festivals? It makes me a bit paranoid about some of my upcoming work

If you do screen in a theatre before sending it to the fest how much did it cost?

Thanks in advance for your answers or input.
Last edited by drknsss on Fri Sep 09, 2022 4:24 am, edited 2 times in total.
Offline
User avatar

Marc Wielage

  • Posts: 10914
  • Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:46 am
  • Location: Hollywood, USA

Re: Your film on a big screen for the first Time

PostFri Sep 09, 2022 3:00 am

drknsss wrote:I e just seen a bunch of short films today in a cinema and I was very surprised by some of the technical things I saw like a boom mic in a glass reflection, some really bad noise in daytime and low light and much more.

If it's framed correctly, and if it goes through a QC (quality control) process, all these things will be spotted and fixed long before it gets to a theater.

Bear in mind that short films are typically done on next-to-no money, usually as a showcase for young actors and filmmakers trying to break in to the business. So you have to cut them some slack -- these are not million-dollar Hollywood projects made by pros with unlimited time and facilities. That doesn't excuse shoddy work, because a lot of this stuff can be fixed relatively inexpensively.
marc wielage, csi • VP/color & workflow • chroma | hollywood
Offline

drknsss

  • Posts: 222
  • Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2021 2:46 am
  • Real Name: Gordon Culley

Re: Your film on a big screen for the first Time

PostFri Sep 09, 2022 4:27 am

It was strange to see , especially since I have a screening happening later this week..., I keep thinking the Lead actors glasses are going to show me operating in the reflection! I know how to mitigate something like that but after watching other filmmakers work it was something I missed! yikes!
Offline

Peter Cave

  • Posts: 3768
  • Joined: Thu Aug 23, 2012 6:45 am
  • Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Your film on a big screen for the first Time

PostFri Sep 09, 2022 6:05 am

You really don't need a projector to see those things. You are seeing other people's shoddy work!
I ALWAYS zoom in massively to check noise/grain etc.

Boom or reflections in shot? Operator error and not fixed in post. Not a screening issue.
Resolve 18.6.5 Mac OSX 14.4 Sonoma
Mac Studio Max 32GB
Offline
User avatar

Marc Wielage

  • Posts: 10914
  • Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:46 am
  • Location: Hollywood, USA

Re: Your film on a big screen for the first Time

PostFri Sep 09, 2022 9:27 am

Peter Cave wrote:You really don't need a projector to see those things. You are seeing other people's shoddy work! I ALWAYS zoom in massively to check noise/grain etc. Boom or reflections in shot? Operator error and not fixed in post. Not a screening issue.

Naw, we fix boom mics, boom shadows, and reflections all the time in finishing. If I can reframe or composite or blur something out, it's not that hard to do. I've told directors, "I'm on the sound guy's side. As long as the mic doesn't dip down into the frame in FRONT of the actor's face, we can find a way to fix it." Hell, I see camera and light reflections far more frequently, and they're sometimes very difficult to fix. Booms? Not that big a deal. We also fix visible lavalier mic bulges, all kinds of stuff -- not that big a deal. Anything to make the film better, we'll make an attempt to do it.
marc wielage, csi • VP/color & workflow • chroma | hollywood
Offline

drknsss

  • Posts: 222
  • Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2021 2:46 am
  • Real Name: Gordon Culley

Re: Your film on a big screen for the first Time

PostFri Sep 09, 2022 9:33 pm

That's a relief!

How much does QC cost? Or at least the average and if they are also doing the deliverables?
Offline

Peter Cave

  • Posts: 3768
  • Joined: Thu Aug 23, 2012 6:45 am
  • Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Your film on a big screen for the first Time

PostFri Sep 09, 2022 11:34 pm

Marc Wielage wrote:
Peter Cave wrote:You really don't need a projector to see those things. You are seeing other people's shoddy work! I ALWAYS zoom in massively to check noise/grain etc. Boom or reflections in shot? Operator error and not fixed in post. Not a screening issue.

Naw, we fix boom mics, boom shadows, and reflections all the time in finishing. If I can reframe or composite or blur something out, it's not that hard to do. I've told directors, "I'm on the sound guy's side. As long as the mic doesn't dip down into the frame in FRONT of the actor's face, we can find a way to fix it." Hell, I see camera and light reflections far more frequently, and they're sometimes very difficult to fix. Booms? Not that big a deal. We also fix visible lavalier mic bulges, all kinds of stuff -- not that big a deal. Anything to make the film better, we'll make an attempt to do it.


I was not implying that we don't fix those things, just that a projection screen is not required to SEE those things while working.
Resolve 18.6.5 Mac OSX 14.4 Sonoma
Mac Studio Max 32GB
Offline
User avatar

Jack Fairley

  • Posts: 1863
  • Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2016 7:58 pm
  • Location: Los Angeles

Re: Your film on a big screen for the first Time

PostSat Sep 10, 2022 12:20 am

Peter Cave wrote:I was not implying that we don't fix those things, just that a projection screen is not required to SEE those things while working.

That's true, with the exception of a Starbucks coffee cup - it's well established that they cannot be detected during filming OR post production, only on platform!
Ryzen 5800X3D
32GB DDR4-3600
RTX 3090
DeckLink 4K Extreme 12G
Resolve Studio 17.4.1
Windows 11 Pro 21H2
Offline
User avatar

Glenn Sakatch

  • Posts: 661
  • Joined: Sat Apr 13, 2013 5:36 pm

Re: Your film on a big screen for the first Time

PostSat Sep 10, 2022 3:07 pm

i just watched an episode of Stranger Things last night. (Current season..episode 8 or 9...inside the Russian prison) As i'm watching i went...what???backed it up, played it again...turned to my wife and said "did you see that?" "No"
Played it again, and pointed to the reflection of dolly rig and a pair of hands coming off it as the move ended.

As the editor, it is quite hard to not see the boom in the shot, as you usually end up watching the shot and the scene, quite often out of context, 10's, if not hundreds of times. I usually put a marker on it before moving on.

As the online editor, it amazes me how many times I can QC a show, find all sorts of niddley little things, fix them, get them fixed what ever. Then as the show airs go "holy crap!, how did we miss that!"

It happens to the best of us. I have yet to see anyone die because of it.
Offline
User avatar

Charles Bennett

  • Posts: 6162
  • Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2016 11:55 am
  • Location: United Kingdom

Re: Your film on a big screen for the first Time

PostSat Sep 10, 2022 8:31 pm

Things that should not be in frame have been getting through since films began.
I have seen the film Ben Hur many times and I'm sure that like me there can be very few who spotted this camera and the crew of another during the chariot race. :)
These were obviously there to capture stuntman Yakima Canutt doubling Charlton Heston.
Attachments
Ben Hur CamerasB.jpg
Ben Hur CamerasB.jpg (258.78 KiB) Viewed 163547 times
Resolve Studio 18.6.6 build 7
Dell XPS 8700 i7-4790, 24GB RAM, 2 x Evo 860 SSDs, GTX1060/6GB (546.01 Studio Driver), Win10 Home (22H2), Speed Editor, Faderport mk1, Eizo ColorEdge CS230 + BenQ GW2270 + Samsung SA200, Canon C100mk2, Zoom H2n.
Offline

Kays Alatrakchi

  • Posts: 1290
  • Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2014 8:22 am
  • Location: Los Angeles, CA

Re: Your film on a big screen for the first Time

PostMon Sep 12, 2022 6:47 pm

drknsss wrote:I just saw a bunch of short films today in a cinema and I was very surprised by some of the technical things I saw like a boom mic in a glass reflection, some really bad noise in daytime and low light scenes and much more.


Meh...perhaps that means the films weren't particularly good and you were bored and not paying attention to the main action.

If the story is solid, the acting and dialogue tight, and the premise compelling; you will lose yourself in the film and not notice any of that stuff.

I think people like us have a tendency to want to look for mistakes -- maybe it makes us feel better about ourselves?

I say don't stress over it. I'll take a great story over a boom in the shot any day of the week!
>>Kays Alatrakchi
Filmmaker based in Los Angeles, CA
http://moviesbykays.com

Resolve 18.1.4, Mac OS X 12.6.3 (Monterey), iMac Pro 64Gb RAM, Decklink Mini 4K, LG C9

Mac Book Air M1, Mac OS X 12.6 (Monterey), 16Gb RAM
Offline

John Paines

  • Posts: 5787
  • Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2015 4:04 pm

Re: Your film on a big screen for the first Time

PostMon Sep 12, 2022 7:13 pm

The question itself sounds like it came from another era. Shorts have no theatrical market, so the only place they'll be seen on a big screen is the handful of festivals with decent screening facilities, and most of those still haven't returned to live performance, even assuming the <1% odds of festival acceptance, and current racial/gender requirements, are surmountable. Maybe the OP is involved in some local screening club or educational venture of some sort?

Well produced shorts invariably come from either film school students with rich parents who spend far in excess of the usual allowance or from celebrities looking for directing jobs. The rest, in the U.S., is potluck, since there's no public funding, and few philanthropic resources.

In the end it's bad writing, bad direction and bad acting which kills most shorts, not booms in the shot. The irony is that money, which any number of aspirants manage to find, with tens of millions in private money going down the drain every year in abortive independent film projects, can buy good writing and good acting, but it almost never does.

Filmmaking is a highly effectively but enormously expensive medium for revealing character flaws, intellectual deficiencies and impoverished imaginations. Whether the self-revelation is cheaper than therapy would depend on your health plan.
Offline

DesertCookie

  • Posts: 15
  • Joined: Wed Aug 19, 2020 12:25 pm
  • Real Name: Ruben Hahn

Re: Your film on a big screen for the first Time

PostTue Sep 13, 2022 7:15 am

In our case, we managed to catch all things outside of the theater. Usually a large TV is enough for most things.

Though, I wish we had been able to pre-view our render in the cinema we premiered at. The colors look very different on a projector. Most strikingly though, the sound was incredibly different to the point where one could hardly understand dialogue because of missing mids.
We premiered at a student's cinema which cost us 100€ für 2 hours of use. They mainly show films in 35mm and have a huge projector for that. Their digital projector and other tech isn't bad either but you could notice it was "only" 10,000€ equipment instead of a cinema's 50,000€.

I'd ask around. Maybe a cinema has an empty room and are happy to support a small project for a personal viewing. One can always ask.
Offline

Kays Alatrakchi

  • Posts: 1290
  • Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2014 8:22 am
  • Location: Los Angeles, CA

Re: Your film on a big screen for the first Time

PostTue Sep 13, 2022 4:41 pm

John Paines wrote:In the end it's bad writing, bad direction and bad acting which kills most shorts, not booms in the shot. The irony is that money, which any number of aspirants manage to find, with tens of millions in private money going down the drain every year in abortive independent film projects, can buy good writing and good acting, but it almost never does.


I think you're missing the fundamental idea behind most short films -- to practice at getting better.
>>Kays Alatrakchi
Filmmaker based in Los Angeles, CA
http://moviesbykays.com

Resolve 18.1.4, Mac OS X 12.6.3 (Monterey), iMac Pro 64Gb RAM, Decklink Mini 4K, LG C9

Mac Book Air M1, Mac OS X 12.6 (Monterey), 16Gb RAM
Offline

John Paines

  • Posts: 5787
  • Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2015 4:04 pm

Re: Your film on a big screen for the first Time

PostTue Sep 13, 2022 6:05 pm

Well, the OP raised the matter of technical flaws in public screenings, not the educational value of the process. And most shorts, no matter how bad, are made with the expectation of professional advancement and exposure, which is why festivals like Sundance receive 10,000+ submissions every year.

That "fundamental idea" is not shared by most people who make shorts.
Offline

Henchman

  • Posts: 593
  • Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 12:43 am
  • Location: Los Angeles
  • Real Name: Mark Hensley

Re: Your film on a big screen for the first Time

PostWed Sep 14, 2022 12:08 am

William Friedkin said, if the audience is focusing on crew reflections in a window, then you've got bigger problems with your film.
https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0972296/
Offline

Henchman

  • Posts: 593
  • Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 12:43 am
  • Location: Los Angeles
  • Real Name: Mark Hensley

Re: Your film on a big screen for the first Time

PostWed Sep 14, 2022 12:54 am

John Paines wrote:Well produced shorts invariably come from either film school students with rich parents who spend far in excess of the usual allowance or from celebrities looking for directing jobs. The rest, in the U.S., is potluck, since there's no public funding, and few philanthropic resources.

I disagree.
You can do a well produced short for very little money today, because of the extremely low cost of equipment.
https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0972296/
Offline

Ellory Yu

  • Posts: 3944
  • Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2014 5:25 pm

Re: Your film on a big screen for the first Time

PostWed Sep 14, 2022 5:57 am

Henchman wrote:
John Paines wrote:Well produced shorts invariably come from either film school students with rich parents who spend far in excess of the usual allowance or from celebrities looking for directing jobs. The rest, in the U.S., is potluck, since there's no public funding, and few philanthropic resources.

I disagree.
You can do a well produced short for very little money today, because of the extremely low cost of equipment.

Short can be well produced if it has the right team who are committed in doing so. My most recent short was a passion project that I got involved with the folks who actually wanted it to happen. A $3000USD budget, this 10 minute short has graced 26 festivals with 20 nominations and 6 wins. It actually was something I least expected. But the production design folks, my DP, the crew, and a really committed producer and cast made it happen. I went to Hollywood CA this weekend just to watch it screened at the TCL Chinese theater in Hollywood. The DCP with 5.1 surround mix was so good on the big screen, the story enticing, it was applauded by the audience 3 times. So Shorts are not for film school students and potluck folks. Really good movies can be made out of compelling stories that are 12 minutes or less. In fact, if you think about it, short films are hard to make because the entire story has to be developed and communicated well and visually succinct to entertaining the audience.
URSA Mini Pro 4.6K G2, Blackmagic Design Pocket Cinema Camera 6K, Panasonic GH5
PC Workstation Core I7 64Gb, 2 x AMD R9 390X 8Gb, Blackmagic Design DeckLink 4K Mini Monitor, Windows 10 Pro 64-bit, Resolve Studio 18, BM Micro Panel & Speed Editor
Offline

John Paines

  • Posts: 5787
  • Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2015 4:04 pm

Re: Your film on a big screen for the first Time

PostWed Sep 14, 2022 12:33 pm

Henchman wrote:You can do a well produced short for very little money today, because of the extremely low cost of equipment.


There's no way to respond to such a claim, without more information. What kind of short? Dramatic, with real actors? Shot where? Under what conditions? Is the labor skilled? Is it free?

Equipment still doesn't buy writing, direction, acting, locations, set design, lighting skills or crew.

BTW, "well produced" doesn't necessarily correlate with "successful". Shorts can succeed in various ways, particularly if they don't have to sustain dramatic illusion.

Ellory Yu wrote:Short can be well produced if it has the right team who are committed in doing so. My most recent short was a passion project that I got involved with the folks who actually wanted it to happen. A $3000USD budget, this 10 minute short


Again, there's no way to respond to this, without knowing more. $3000 doesn't buy much labor, so crew was apparently working for free, along with free equipment and locations. And what kind of material? Did it require skilled acting, and if so, where did you find the talent? You mention a great 5.1 mix. Who does that for nothing, and where?

You see where I'm going....
Offline

Henchman

  • Posts: 593
  • Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 12:43 am
  • Location: Los Angeles
  • Real Name: Mark Hensley

Re: Your film on a big screen for the first Time

PostWed Sep 14, 2022 2:44 pm

John Paines wrote:
Henchman wrote:You can do a well produced short for very little money today, because of the extremely low cost of equipment.


There's no way to respond to such a claim, without more information. What kind of short? Dramatic, with real actors? Shot where? Under what conditions? Is the labor skilled? Is it free?

Equipment still doesn't buy writing, direction, acting, locations, set design, lighting skills or crew.

BTW, "well produced" doesn't necessarily correlate with "successful". Shorts can succeed in various ways, particularly if they don't have to sustain dramatic illusion.

Ellory Yu wrote:Short can be well produced if it has the right team who are committed in doing so. My most recent short was a passion project that I got involved with the folks who actually wanted it to happen. A $3000USD budget, this 10 minute short


Again, there's no way to respond to this, without knowing more. $3000 doesn't buy much labor, so crew was apparently working for free, along with free equipment and locations. And what kind of material? Did it require skilled acting, and if so, where did you find the talent? You mention a great 5.1 mix. Who does that for nothing, and where?

You see where I'm going....


Yes, I see where you're going with this. You made a statement regarding what it takes to make a well produced short film, claiming basically you have to be well off or famous to do so.

Now you want minutia details when filmmakers state it's not true.

We'll, it's not true. You also don't need a big crew anymore to make well produced short film.
The conditions under which its shot are irrelevant as well.
https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0972296/
Offline

John Paines

  • Posts: 5787
  • Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2015 4:04 pm

Re: Your film on a big screen for the first Time

PostWed Sep 14, 2022 3:16 pm

You're absolutely right. If you have few or no production expenses and the conditions of the shoot and the nature of the material are irrelevant, you can make shorts for little money without the shortcomings which would have been obvious with consumer equipment 10 years ago.

Whether these shorts would be described as "well produced" is another matter. For example, do they attempt (and achieve) dramatic illusion? Or are we talking mainly about a few isolated shots and very limited production requirements? Where have these shorts been seen?

It's been years since I was on the shorts festival circuit, with 16mm, but one thing which was painfully obvious to the Americans was that we couldn't compete technically with shorts from Europe, usually financed all or in part by the state.

But there's no arguing with work nobody has seen, so if you say your stuff is well produced, that's the end of it.
Offline

Henchman

  • Posts: 593
  • Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 12:43 am
  • Location: Los Angeles
  • Real Name: Mark Hensley

Re: Your film on a big screen for the first Time

PostWed Sep 14, 2022 3:30 pm

John Paines wrote:
But there's no arguing with work nobody has seen, so if you say your stuff is well produced, that's the end of it.


Well, this is my latest short, filmed with a crew of 2. That being myself and the DP
A budget of less than $1k
Possible because of companies like Blackmagic, bringing affordable tools to people wanting to make films.

It's doing very well in the festival circuit.

https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0972296/
Offline

John Paines

  • Posts: 5787
  • Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2015 4:04 pm

Re: Your film on a big screen for the first Time

PostWed Sep 14, 2022 4:29 pm

You're putting me in an impossible position; if I decline to celebrate the material it amounts to an insult. And the term "well produced" is probably too vague anyway. It may be better to talk in terms of production values, dramatic/literary qualities and performance, and distinguish between them. Shorts, after all, don't often "get it together", thanks to limited resources. (It's my view that the rare ones which do "get it together" are "well produced", requiring money and resources beyond anyone's personal means, but never mind, that amounts to a circular argument.)

In North America the established festival circuit for shorts where applications are still accepted would include Sundance, Slamdance, SXSW, Telluride, San Francisco Int'l, Toronto Shorts, Tribeca, Aspen Shortsfest, Palm Springs, Seattle Int'l, Maryland Film Festival, Florida Film Festival, among a dozen or so other regional festivals.

Acceptance at the established festivals can be capricious, especially now when identity-politics dominates the selections, but nothing can be concluded about the rest. Acceptance rates, financing sources, the staffing, etc. tend to be matters of concern.
Offline

Henchman

  • Posts: 593
  • Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 12:43 am
  • Location: Los Angeles
  • Real Name: Mark Hensley

Re: Your film on a big screen for the first Time

PostWed Sep 14, 2022 4:41 pm

John Paines wrote:You're putting me in an impossible position; if I decline to celebrate the material it amounts to an insult. And the term "well produced" is probably too vague anyway. It may be better to talk in terms of production values, dramatic/literary qualities and performance, and distinguish between them. Shorts, after all, don't often "get it together", thanks to limited resources. (It's my view that the rare ones which do "get it together" are "well produced", requiring money and resources beyond anyone's personal means, but never mind, that amounts to a circular argument.)

In North America the established festival circuit for shorts where applications are still accepted would include Sundance, Slamdance, SXSW, Telluride, San Francisco Int'l, Toronto Shorts, Tribeca, Aspen Shortsfest, Palm Springs, Seattle Int'l, Maryland Film Festival, Florida Film Festival, among a dozen or so other regional festivals.

Acceptance at the established festivals can be capricious, especially now when identity-politics dominates the selections, but nothing can be concluded about the rest. Acceptance rates, financing sources, the staffing, etc. tend to be matters of concern.


But now your moving the goal posts.
As you think that a handful of North American festival, where knowing someone is going to help determine you being accepted, are the only festivals validating quality/production.
I've seen a lot of downright dreadful films that have made it into those festivals.

As someone else stated. Shorts are also a way to improve one's talents.
One can sit at home and have ideas, waiting for the planets to align, so they can go out and spend a fortune on something that won't make any real money.
Or one can go out, make shirt films, and improve their skills.
https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0972296/
Offline

John Paines

  • Posts: 5787
  • Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2015 4:04 pm

Re: Your film on a big screen for the first Time

PostWed Sep 14, 2022 7:26 pm

The goal posts haven't moved an inch. The only real question is, can one make a mature coherent work with few resources and little money, whether it's 7 minutes or 107 minutes, which satisfies the expectations of passably sophisticated audiences today?

It's my position that for traditional storytelling, the means to reach "well produced" are not within the power and bank balances of most individuals, no matter how good the equipment, even assuming the filmmaker's originality of mind justifies the demands on a viewer's time. And the task becomes harder with time. The entire art house catalogue is pretty much available online, as is the best of cable TV. And there are far more no-budget efforts circulating, to exhaust patience. Who's going to make allowances for them? This is not 1987, when "indie film" was a new thing.

If you polled people in the know, the likeliest short to win "best" ever, is probably Chris Marker's "La Jette". Except for two brief shots, a matter of seconds, this 35mm "movie" is all still photos. We could describe that choice as "experimental" -- or maybe just a smart way to get the most of limited resources. He did have an insuperable advantage to pull off the trick: he was a highly skilled writer, without which equipment does nothing.
Offline

Henchman

  • Posts: 593
  • Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 12:43 am
  • Location: Los Angeles
  • Real Name: Mark Hensley

Re: Your film on a big screen for the first Time

PostWed Sep 14, 2022 7:31 pm

John Paines wrote:The goal posts haven't moved an inch. The only real question is, can one make a mature coherent work with few resources and little money, whether it's 7 minutes or 107 minutes, which satisfies the expectations of passably sophisticated audiences today?

.


And I believe you can.
As long as you're not aiming for the Superhero crowd.
https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0972296/
Offline

Ellory Yu

  • Posts: 3944
  • Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2014 5:25 pm

Re: Your film on a big screen for the first Time

PostThu Sep 15, 2022 5:29 am

Henchman wrote:
John Paines wrote:
Henchman wrote:You can do a well produced short for very little money today, because of the extremely low cost of equipment.


There's no way to respond to such a claim, without more information. What kind of short? Dramatic, with real actors? Shot where? Under what conditions? Is the labor skilled? Is it free?

Equipment still doesn't buy writing, direction, acting, locations, set design, lighting skills or crew.

BTW, "well produced" doesn't necessarily correlate with "successful". Shorts can succeed in various ways, particularly if they don't have to sustain dramatic illusion.

Ellory Yu wrote:Short can be well produced if it has the right team who are committed in doing so. My most recent short was a passion project that I got involved with the folks who actually wanted it to happen. A $3000USD budget, this 10 minute short


Again, there's no way to respond to this, without knowing more. $3000 doesn't buy much labor, so crew was apparently working for free, along with free equipment and locations. And what kind of material? Did it require skilled acting, and if so, where did you find the talent? You mention a great 5.1 mix. Who does that for nothing, and where?

You see where I'm going....


Yes, I see where you're going with this. You made a statement regarding what it takes to make a well produced short film, claiming basically you have to be well off or famous to do so.

Now you want minutia details when filmmakers state it's not true.

We'll, it's not true. You also don't need a big crew anymore to make well produced short film.
The conditions under which its shot are irrelevant as well.


I’m sorry for the nay sayer but as I said it can be done with small budgets. I’ve done this many times and the key is to have the right collaborators who will work with you and are passionate about it that they will commit their time. On the recent project, I mentioned it was a passion project that was decently produced. The biggest expense out of the 3K we spent was not on cast and crew, yet we had SAG actors and everyone has a day job as a professional in their related field in this industry, willing to give a bit of their time. Money was spent on a 2 ton equipment truck, insurance and permits, and food. This was a 2 day shoot. We got to use a real and functioning airport because we had connections and a producer who knows the ropes. We bought food from the restaurant that we shot some of the scenes from. Here’s a ink to the project. It had a good size cast and crew, which are typical of most low budget films that I was involved in.
https://www.themissedflight.com

I’ve done it a few times now so I know it can be done. But keep in mind again that everyone doing this is not in for the money. Everyone is doing well with their careers. Our sound guy, for instance, has won 11 Emmys for his line of work. This is when friends and collaborators share a passion to do something together, hence it can be done on the cheap.
Last edited by Ellory Yu on Thu Sep 15, 2022 5:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
URSA Mini Pro 4.6K G2, Blackmagic Design Pocket Cinema Camera 6K, Panasonic GH5
PC Workstation Core I7 64Gb, 2 x AMD R9 390X 8Gb, Blackmagic Design DeckLink 4K Mini Monitor, Windows 10 Pro 64-bit, Resolve Studio 18, BM Micro Panel & Speed Editor
Offline

Kays Alatrakchi

  • Posts: 1290
  • Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2014 8:22 am
  • Location: Los Angeles, CA

Re: Your film on a big screen for the first Time

PostThu Sep 15, 2022 5:38 am

I give you the king of no budget short films which work and are simply brilliant:

>>Kays Alatrakchi
Filmmaker based in Los Angeles, CA
http://moviesbykays.com

Resolve 18.1.4, Mac OS X 12.6.3 (Monterey), iMac Pro 64Gb RAM, Decklink Mini 4K, LG C9

Mac Book Air M1, Mac OS X 12.6 (Monterey), 16Gb RAM
Offline

Henchman

  • Posts: 593
  • Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 12:43 am
  • Location: Los Angeles
  • Real Name: Mark Hensley

Re: Your film on a big screen for the first Time

PostThu Sep 15, 2022 5:42 am

Kays Alatrakchi wrote:I give you the king of no budget short films which work and are simply brilliant:



Yep.
Perfect example
https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0972296/
Offline

Ellory Yu

  • Posts: 3944
  • Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2014 5:25 pm

Re: Your film on a big screen for the first Time

PostThu Sep 15, 2022 5:43 am

Kays Alatrakchi wrote:I give you the king of no budget short films which work and are simply brilliant:


That’s pretty good Kays.
URSA Mini Pro 4.6K G2, Blackmagic Design Pocket Cinema Camera 6K, Panasonic GH5
PC Workstation Core I7 64Gb, 2 x AMD R9 390X 8Gb, Blackmagic Design DeckLink 4K Mini Monitor, Windows 10 Pro 64-bit, Resolve Studio 18, BM Micro Panel & Speed Editor
Offline

John Paines

  • Posts: 5787
  • Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2015 4:04 pm

Re: Your film on a big screen for the first Time

PostThu Sep 15, 2022 12:42 pm

Guys, these claims have been made and heard since S-VHS and Hi8, which were going to "democratize" filmmaking. And before that 16mm was going to do it. And then of course, mini-DV and FCP. And HD. And 4K. And 8K.....

And yet, strangely, fiction movies are no better (even if they may "look" better) and the odds of a career are actually far worse. All that's changed is that instead of Sundance getting 200-300 "indie" feature submissions a year, it now gets 5000. And there's a vast pool of amateur and semi-professional shorts and features which don't satisfy either commercial or art house expectations. I know this, because 1) they don't make money and/or obtain commercial or broadcast release of any kind, and 2) they can't and don't compete in the art house market.

Those "Palme D'Ors" on everyone's one sheets don't mean Cannes. What they do often mean is "festivals" which operate for profit (from submission fees), to exploit this very market, in the absence of any actual exhibition market for this material.

And if you're getting stuff for free, and labor for free, then please don't tell me you can make movies for nothing. This is no different than saying that your grandmother left you $5 million, which proves you can make a $5 million movie for nothing.
Last edited by John Paines on Thu Sep 15, 2022 2:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Offline

Henchman

  • Posts: 593
  • Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 12:43 am
  • Location: Los Angeles
  • Real Name: Mark Hensley

Re: Your film on a big screen for the first Time

PostThu Sep 15, 2022 2:07 pm

John Paines wrote:.

Those "Palme D'Ors" on everyone's one sheets don't mean Cannes. What they do often mean is "festivals" which operate for profit (from submission fees), to exploit this very market, in the absence of any actual exhibition market for this material.
.


There isn't a single "festival" that doesn't operate for profit. In fact, I would say the biggest ones are the worst offenders. Charging large entrance fees, knowing they have no intention of accepting a short that doesn't have an "in".

I myself submitted to one of those nog festivals, that claims they watch every submission on its entirety. Yet I have proof they watched 5% of my film. Which wouldn't get you pass the intro.

As you said, chances of getting into film festivals is less than 1%. Any festival so, getting accepted is still an achievement no matter how you look at it.

Then there's the case of gaining experience in directing and overal film making. Or simply having a story one wants to tell
Should an artist not create something, because there's no immediate financial gain?
Does a musician stop writing songs until they have a record deal?

In this current day, the cost threshold of filmmaking is at a level where not only is it open to more people who in fact don't have wealthy parents. But the technology by companies like Blackmagic has made it so you cNab do it with minimal, or no crew at all.
https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0972296/
Offline

John Paines

  • Posts: 5787
  • Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2015 4:04 pm

Re: Your film on a big screen for the first Time

PostThu Sep 15, 2022 2:46 pm

The proof that your claim is not true is an unanswerable one: the absence of no-budget masterpieces, despite the availability of cheap equipment for many years. Thirty years ago you could shoot a 16mm feature for under $10K, in stock, processing, answer print, if you kept the ratio down. Some people did it without crew. Jon Jost, for one. Look him up.

Are you really saying that the impediment to filmmaking greatness, from the 60s to the 2000s, more than 40 years, when 16mm was the indie standard and widely available, was $10K -- less than the price of a year of film school, even then? Or that today, it's a $1200 camera and a cheap computer?

If so, then where are all the masterworks? Why has virtually none of this material succeeded in either the commercial or art house markets, or achieved critical acclaim? If there are buried no-budget masterpieces on youtube, where are they?

Your argument, that cheap equipment makes it all possible, hasn't been vindicated for at least 60 years. How much more time do you need?
Offline

Ellory Yu

  • Posts: 3944
  • Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2014 5:25 pm

Re: Your film on a big screen for the first Time

PostThu Sep 15, 2022 4:06 pm

John Paines wrote:If so, then where are all the masterworks? Why has virtually none of this material succeeded in either the commercial or art house markets, or achieved critical acclaim? If there are buried no-budget masterpieces on youtube, where are they?

They are all over the world. It doesn't have to be the commercial or art house markets. But streaming outlets and art theaters are pushing more and more of them now. It will proliferate.

John Paines wrote:Your argument, that cheap equipment makes it all possible, hasn't been vindicated for at least 60 years. How much more time do you need?

IMO, it's not cheap equipment. It's the willingness of people to collaborate and make something... whether it is music, film, whatever... and not just people with money to do it. This should be encouraged and not discourage by arguments that if there's no commercial value then it is worthless. There are billions of audiences looking for content that is enticing to them. Marvel, Disney, and the big budget films are not the only content that bears market. In 3rd world countries alone, millions are watching short content that are streamed daily. There's much more views to any given shorts on Vimeo or YouTube daily than there is on a broadcast network. A commercial spot will get more audience from a streaming short movie than a sitcom or a romcom on a broadcast network during prime hours. That's where I think the market will be in coming years with new gen "whatever" audiences.
Last edited by Ellory Yu on Thu Sep 15, 2022 4:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
URSA Mini Pro 4.6K G2, Blackmagic Design Pocket Cinema Camera 6K, Panasonic GH5
PC Workstation Core I7 64Gb, 2 x AMD R9 390X 8Gb, Blackmagic Design DeckLink 4K Mini Monitor, Windows 10 Pro 64-bit, Resolve Studio 18, BM Micro Panel & Speed Editor
Offline

Kays Alatrakchi

  • Posts: 1290
  • Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2014 8:22 am
  • Location: Los Angeles, CA

Re: Your film on a big screen for the first Time

PostThu Sep 15, 2022 4:07 pm

John Paines wrote:If so, then where are all the masterworks?


I have no idea how we arrived from "should I paint out the boom in my shot" to "where are all the masterworks"?

Nonetheless, I'll keep playing because I'm still waking up and I don't feel like working quite yet.


First of all, define masterworks. Where are the studio masterworks I say?

Secondly, as I said, short films for many directors are a low-stakes way to try out your hand at making films and see if you even like it, and if you do see how you can get better. I know that my decisions as a filmmaker today are far better and more nuanced than they were when I made my first short film.

Thirdly, short films that manage to work (regardless of budget), such as Lights Out that I posted above, open doors for directors who would otherwise have absolutely no access to larger tier of projects and studios. David F. Sandberg's career was made on Lights Out, and now he's an established studio director. There are tons of such examples. Wes Ball's career was made by his short film Ruin. Neill Blomkamp's by Alive in Joburg. Hell...you could make a solid argument that both George Lucas and Steven Spielberg's careers were launched by their short films!

Lastly while yes, the good ones are few and far between; the reality is that it's very very difficult to make films. Under the very best circumstances they are a heartbreaking succession of compromises and disappointments. Nonetheless they are an artistic expression that can yield a sense of accomplishment and satisfaction.
>>Kays Alatrakchi
Filmmaker based in Los Angeles, CA
http://moviesbykays.com

Resolve 18.1.4, Mac OS X 12.6.3 (Monterey), iMac Pro 64Gb RAM, Decklink Mini 4K, LG C9

Mac Book Air M1, Mac OS X 12.6 (Monterey), 16Gb RAM
Offline

John Paines

  • Posts: 5787
  • Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2015 4:04 pm

Re: Your film on a big screen for the first Time

PostThu Sep 15, 2022 4:54 pm

What's claimed above about markets for this stuff is factually incorrect or just plain fantasy -- take my word for it or not, no point flogging this one into infinity -- and the rest comes down not to brilliant work or marvels of equipment, but ease of distribution. Stuff which would never be seen before by the industry is now accessible, and if it gets enough hits it may attract notice.... Sixteen million views means lots of potential ticket sales, and the creator of that material will be of obvious interest to a for-profit industry. If you ask me, the movies which follow are thoroughly dispensable, the usual mainstream commercial ventures, which any number of people could create or direct, but tastes will obviously differ.

As for that word "art", which some are talking about above (and which might be shocking in this context), have a look at the short I recommended, La Jette, which is easily found, and then ask yourself whether the shorts referenced here achieve, or even aspire, to that standard, no matter how many "Palmes d'or" they have on their one-sheets.

Anyway, let this endless loop of hope, desire and self-delusion, play on..... Wave after wave of would-be filmmakers embrace it, it never gets old. Good luck!
Offline

Henchman

  • Posts: 593
  • Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 12:43 am
  • Location: Los Angeles
  • Real Name: Mark Hensley

Re: Your film on a big screen for the first Time

PostThu Sep 15, 2022 4:58 pm

John Paines wrote:What's claimed above about markets for this stuff is factually incorrect or just plain fantasy -- take my word for it or not, no point flogging this one into infinity -- and the rest comes down not to brilliant work or marvels of equipment, but ease of distribution. Stuff which would never be seen before by the industry is now accessible, and if it gets enough hits it may attract notice.... Sixteen million views means lots of potential ticket sales, and the creator of that material will be of obvious interest to a for-profit industry. If you ask me, the movies which follow are thoroughly dispensable, the usual mainstream commercial ventures, which any number of people could create or direct, but tastes will obviously differ.

As for that word, "art" which some are talking about above (and which to my mind is shocking in this context), have a look at the short I recommended, La Jette, which is easily found, and then ask yourself whether the shorts referenced here achieve, or even aspire, to that standard, no matter how many "Palms d'or" they have on their one-sheets.

Anyway, let this endless loop of hope, desire and self-delusion, play on..... Wave after wave of would-be filmmakers embrace it, it never gets old. Good luck!


La Jette I'm sure was considered brilliant 60 years ago.
By todays standards, iy wouldn't even get 1000 views on youtube.
Let alone be accepted at any major film festival.
https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0972296/
Offline

John Paines

  • Posts: 5787
  • Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2015 4:04 pm

Re: Your film on a big screen for the first Time

PostThu Sep 15, 2022 5:13 pm

Henchman wrote:La Jette I'm sure was considered brilliant 60 years ago.
By todays standards, iy wouldn't even get 1000 views on youtube.
Let alone be accepted at any major film festival.


La Jette *is* on youtube. There are at least two versions, with over 500,000 views between them. There may be more interest in actual cinema than you think.

Of course, techniques and tastes change in 60 years, but I doubt you can speak for any major film festival -- how much do you actually know about contemporary art house cinema? -- and if we're down to youtube hits, then cat videos are obviously high art and La Jettee is crap.

But as I said, this one is best left to play out on its own. Goodbye and good luck.
Offline

Ellory Yu

  • Posts: 3944
  • Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2014 5:25 pm

Re: Your film on a big screen for the first Time

PostThu Sep 15, 2022 6:52 pm

John Paines wrote:What's claimed above about markets for this stuff is factually incorrect or just plain fantasy -- take my word for it or not, no point flogging this one into infinity -- and the rest comes down not to brilliant work or marvels of equipment, but ease of distribution. Stuff which would never be seen before by the industry is now accessible, and if it gets enough hits it may attract notice.... Sixteen million views means lots of potential ticket sales, and the creator of that material will be of obvious interest to a for-profit industry. If you ask me, the movies which follow are thoroughly dispensable, the usual mainstream commercial ventures, which any number of people could create or direct, but tastes will obviously differ.

As for that word "art", which some are talking about above (and which might be shocking in this context), have a look at the short I recommended, La Jette, which is easily found, and then ask yourself whether the shorts referenced here achieve, or even aspire, to that standard, no matter how many "Palmes d'or" they have on their one-sheets.

Anyway, let this endless loop of hope, desire and self-delusion, play on..... Wave after wave of would-be filmmakers embrace it, it never gets old. Good luck!


Why don't you just go and shoot a short film and do something that's worth watching by the audience that may cater to your envisioning and taste of what is a "Masterwork or Mater art", or whatever it is called. What does that even mean? As far as I and many filmmakers I know who by the way are doing well financially with what they do, we are enjoying our craft and our audience are applauding. Stop being a sour grape or trying to vindicate yourself as a professed critique of films. The movies you've mentioned are all good references, but that's about it for what they can do in today's world of filmmaking. Good luck to you too.
URSA Mini Pro 4.6K G2, Blackmagic Design Pocket Cinema Camera 6K, Panasonic GH5
PC Workstation Core I7 64Gb, 2 x AMD R9 390X 8Gb, Blackmagic Design DeckLink 4K Mini Monitor, Windows 10 Pro 64-bit, Resolve Studio 18, BM Micro Panel & Speed Editor
Offline
User avatar

Marc Wielage

  • Posts: 10914
  • Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:46 am
  • Location: Hollywood, USA

Re: Your film on a big screen for the first Time

PostFri Sep 16, 2022 5:19 am

Peter Cave wrote:I was not implying that we don't fix those things, just that a projection screen is not required to SEE those things while working.

Never said it was. One of the curses of working in color and finishing is we see all the flaws. Sometimes that's all I see. And this is just on a 32" high-res calibrated display. It helps that I try not to blink.

John Paines wrote:In the end it's bad writing, bad direction and bad acting which kills most shorts, not booms in the shot. The irony is that money, which any number of aspirants manage to find, with tens of millions in private money going down the drain every year in abortive independent film projects, can buy good writing and good acting, but it almost never does.

I would say that's essentially true, but it's beyond the scope of this group. The Blackmagic forums are intended to help people solve technical problems. If you have a conceptual problem with the idea of a film, or acting, or directing, or any artistic endeavor like that, that belongs on a different forum. We'll help you get Resolve to work, or help with an ATEM switcher, or a Blackmagic Cinema camera, but the ideas all boil down to creative intent.
marc wielage, csi • VP/color & workflow • chroma | hollywood
Offline

Ellory Yu

  • Posts: 3944
  • Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2014 5:25 pm

Re: Your film on a big screen for the first Time

PostFri Sep 16, 2022 7:16 am

Marc Wielage wrote:The Blackmagic forums are intended to help people solve technical problems. If you have a conceptual problem with the idea of a film, or acting, or directing, or any artistic endeavor like that, that belongs on a different forum. We'll help you get Resolve to work, or help with an ATEM switcher, or a Blackmagic Cinema camera, but the ideas all boil down to creative intent.

Right on, Marc. The End. Roll credits.
URSA Mini Pro 4.6K G2, Blackmagic Design Pocket Cinema Camera 6K, Panasonic GH5
PC Workstation Core I7 64Gb, 2 x AMD R9 390X 8Gb, Blackmagic Design DeckLink 4K Mini Monitor, Windows 10 Pro 64-bit, Resolve Studio 18, BM Micro Panel & Speed Editor
Offline

Steve Fishwick

  • Posts: 1006
  • Joined: Wed Mar 11, 2015 11:35 am
  • Location: United Kingdom

Re: Your film on a big screen for the first Time

PostFri Sep 16, 2022 8:51 am

Ellory Yu wrote:Right on, Marc. The End. Roll credits.


If you'll forgive me Ellory, for offering an addendum - perhaps rather like the Pearl & Dean advertising, we had here in the UK, in the glory days of cinema. The OP may be interested in DCP-O-Matic (https://dcpomatic.com/) which is an open source, very well maintained and incredibly comprehensive software solution for DCPs. Many small independent cinemas will allow you to screen these in downtime, for often free and it is a good way to check your work in a theatrical setting.

But really things like booms, blanking and framing errors should be clearly catchable, on any monitor, if you properly review your work, though I confess, as an online/grading editor a lot of the time, these things are often only caught by eagle eyed QC. :) I worked recently on a series for one of the major UK channels. It was a studio based show and there was lots of painting to do: astons and cameras in shot; Tracking and stabilization etc. The Exec went ballistic if anything was missed, which was his right. I was one of several online editors on it and my technique was to online, review and correct twice and then switch the sound off, so as not to distract, and review it again at double speed, which seemed to help the review process. Nonetheless there is always something you miss and we are lucky, I suppose to have QC and eyeball support.
Offline

Kays Alatrakchi

  • Posts: 1290
  • Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2014 8:22 am
  • Location: Los Angeles, CA

Re: Your film on a big screen for the first Time

PostFri Sep 16, 2022 6:45 pm

Steve Fishwick wrote:The Exec went ballistic if anything was missed, which was his right



Ugh...only if he's paying by the hour!

At some point, this stuff gets into VFX-land which I think goes beyond the scope of the colorist (as well as the one of the editor).

I split my time between Color Grading and VFX work, and I can tell you for VFX work 50% of the shots are corrective stuff (crew person in the frame, boom, etc). These are things that require specialized tools to fix.

When I'm in color grade mode, if there's something that I can address for the client through reframing, blurring, or darkening I will do it. But anything beyond that it goes to VFX (and the rate changes).
>>Kays Alatrakchi
Filmmaker based in Los Angeles, CA
http://moviesbykays.com

Resolve 18.1.4, Mac OS X 12.6.3 (Monterey), iMac Pro 64Gb RAM, Decklink Mini 4K, LG C9

Mac Book Air M1, Mac OS X 12.6 (Monterey), 16Gb RAM
Offline

Steve Fishwick

  • Posts: 1006
  • Joined: Wed Mar 11, 2015 11:35 am
  • Location: United Kingdom

Re: Your film on a big screen for the first Time

PostFri Sep 16, 2022 9:21 pm

Kays Alatrakchi wrote:When I'm in color grade mode, if there's something that I can address for the client through reframing, blurring, or darkening I will do it. But anything beyond that it goes to VFX (and the rate changes).


Well maybe in the States Kays and I envy you. But here in the UK that type of work is a standard part of online. I don't consider it 'VFX', unless I misunderstood you - the 'specialized' tools are all there in Avid Symphony or Resolve Studio, with the standard industry plugins like Boris, Mocha, Neat etc., in most every facility and you're expected to be familiar with them, as a standard. VFX is something very clever people do with mattes and models, smoke and mirrors. :D

I chose my words carefully you understand but I never get flustered. My job is to deliver a service to the customer. I wasn't directly on the brunt end of it and I won't accept bad manners in any case. It's simply a matter of going through feedback and addressing it. Here we spend say on a 1 hour TV show, a day onlining - all that you call VFX - and then say a couple of days grading. This was unusual in having so much work of that kind. Nonetheless each show was onlined in 6-8 hours, with possibly a maximum of a further 2 hours addressing feedback.
Offline

Ellory Yu

  • Posts: 3944
  • Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2014 5:25 pm

Re: Your film on a big screen for the first Time

PostSat Sep 17, 2022 4:14 am

Steve Fishwick wrote:
Kays Alatrakchi wrote:When I'm in color grade mode, if there's something that I can address for the client through reframing, blurring, or darkening I will do it. But anything beyond that it goes to VFX (and the rate changes).


Well maybe in the States Kays and I envy you. But here in the UK that type of work is a standard part of online. I don't consider it 'VFX', unless I misunderstood you - the 'specialized' tools are all there in Avid Symphony or Resolve Studio, with the standard industry plugins like Boris, Mocha, Neat etc., in most every facility and you're expected to be familiar with them, as a standard. VFX is something very clever people do with mattes and models, smoke and mirrors. :D


Steve, I’m in the States and kind of do it like Kays. In our work agreement for editing and color grading it explicitly says that we don’t do VFX and even sound cleaning and these are not included in the price. We will refer them to others who are specialists in that area. However, there will be times when it is easy for us to fix it that I just go ahead and do some kind of repair work.

Steve Fishwick wrote:If you'll forgive me Ellory, for offering an addendum - perhaps rather like the Pearl & Dean advertising, we had here in the UK, in the glory days of cinema. The OP may be interested in DCP-O-Matic (https://dcpomatic.com/) which is an open source, very well maintained and incredibly comprehensive software solution for DCPs. Many small independent cinemas will allow you to screen these in downtime, for often free and it is a good way to check your work in a theatrical setting.

Glad we can be back on track with the OP post so no need for apologies. I use Resolve to create the DCP however use the DCP-O-Matic player to review the package. It’s a good tool for that. Then there is the delivery of the DCP on media which is another ball of wax. For that, we use Cinematiq DCP Transfer (https://cinematiq.com/dcp-authoring/). There are other services as well. NFS had this article a while ago but things have changed in the delivery services (https://nofilmschool.com/2018/04/dcp-transfer-cinematiq) since this article. The DCP Transfer software is also available here: https://cinematiq.com/dcptransfer/?gcli ... -nEALw_wcB
URSA Mini Pro 4.6K G2, Blackmagic Design Pocket Cinema Camera 6K, Panasonic GH5
PC Workstation Core I7 64Gb, 2 x AMD R9 390X 8Gb, Blackmagic Design DeckLink 4K Mini Monitor, Windows 10 Pro 64-bit, Resolve Studio 18, BM Micro Panel & Speed Editor
Offline

Steve Fishwick

  • Posts: 1006
  • Joined: Wed Mar 11, 2015 11:35 am
  • Location: United Kingdom

Re: Your film on a big screen for the first Time

PostSat Sep 17, 2022 9:11 am

Ellory Yu wrote:Steve, I’m in the States and kind of do it like Kays. In our work agreement for editing and color grading it explicitly says that we don’t do VFX and even sound cleaning and these are not included in the price. We will refer them to others who are specialists in that area. However, there will be times when it is easy for us to fix it that I just go ahead and do some kind of repair work.


Interesting Ellory, In the big post houses here, say The Farm, Online editor and Colourist are two separate jobs, similar to you describe. This particularly where post is for features and high end TV drama etc. where perhaps the colourist is Dolby certified and sits at a big Davinci panel, they're not really 'editors' in that sense. In Broadcast TV, where I work the roles are combined and most editors who do online will also be an offline editor too. I'm like that for instance, I'm mostly your classic creative story telling editor, who often also onlines and grades - not every editor has the technical knowledge to do that, it's just something I've always done and I like too. Some online/grading editors do just that and never cut a picture in the classic sense. In any case we never touch sound in online, it goes to dub. However, finally, we are less contractually or union restricted here than you seem to be and a certain flexibility is expected. As a freelancer I am either working for a facility or the production company directly, at a daily/weekly rate. I charge more for online/grading than regular editing but that's it.
Ellory Yu wrote:Then there is the delivery of the DCP on media which is another ball of wax.


DCP-O-Matic now allows you to format media for compliant delivery, does that not work for you?
Offline

Kays Alatrakchi

  • Posts: 1290
  • Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2014 8:22 am
  • Location: Los Angeles, CA

Re: Your film on a big screen for the first Time

PostSat Sep 17, 2022 3:18 pm

Steve Fishwick wrote:But here in the UK that type of work is a standard part of online. I don't consider it 'VFX', unless I misunderstood you


Let me put it to you this way -- if Mocha gets involved, then that's a VFX job and gets billed differently -- typically on a per shot basis at a different hourly rate.

Neat Video for noise reduction, as well as reframing, and using power-windows to blur out or otherwise obscure some background element that shouldn't be there is fine for color/finishing.

I suppose Resolve by incorporating Fusion and other fairly advanced OFX tools is blurring the line somewhat, but IMHO that line needs to stay fairly clear regardless of what the software offers.

Ultimately, I can't tell anyone else how to do their job or run their business, but setting precedents and getting clients used to expect VFX type of work (or sound design for that matter) out of a colorist or an editor is IMHO setting a potentially dangerous trend.
>>Kays Alatrakchi
Filmmaker based in Los Angeles, CA
http://moviesbykays.com

Resolve 18.1.4, Mac OS X 12.6.3 (Monterey), iMac Pro 64Gb RAM, Decklink Mini 4K, LG C9

Mac Book Air M1, Mac OS X 12.6 (Monterey), 16Gb RAM
Offline

Ellory Yu

  • Posts: 3944
  • Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2014 5:25 pm

Re: Your film on a big screen for the first Time

PostSat Sep 17, 2022 5:38 pm

Steve Fishwick wrote:DCP-O-Matic now allows you to format media for compliant delivery, does that not work for you?

They didn’t use to have that feature so we have been using Cinematiq as our standard process. I recall we tried using DCP-O-Magic to format media and certain Christie projectors were unable to read the drive or had errors reading it. That’s been a while ago so it may have been addressed in newer version, IDK.
URSA Mini Pro 4.6K G2, Blackmagic Design Pocket Cinema Camera 6K, Panasonic GH5
PC Workstation Core I7 64Gb, 2 x AMD R9 390X 8Gb, Blackmagic Design DeckLink 4K Mini Monitor, Windows 10 Pro 64-bit, Resolve Studio 18, BM Micro Panel & Speed Editor
Offline

Steve Fishwick

  • Posts: 1006
  • Joined: Wed Mar 11, 2015 11:35 am
  • Location: United Kingdom

Re: Your film on a big screen for the first Time

PostSat Sep 17, 2022 6:08 pm

Kays Alatrakchi wrote:Let me put it to you this way -- if Mocha gets involved, then that's a VFX job and gets billed differently -- typically on a per shot basis at a different hourly rate.


Let me put it to you this way too - if you tried to over-charge for such basic things here in the UK, you would be out of a job :)
Offline

Kays Alatrakchi

  • Posts: 1290
  • Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2014 8:22 am
  • Location: Los Angeles, CA

Re: Your film on a big screen for the first Time

PostSun Sep 18, 2022 5:25 am

If you're pulling the shot into AfterEffects, doing camera tracking in Mocha, bringing in the plate to Photoshop so that you can paint out a boom or a crew member or whatever, then bringing it back into AE and compositing it, adding grain matching and refining the mask so that the comp sits in with the rest of the shot, and in some cases doing some roto because the actor crosses into the patch -- that's the very definition of VFX work!

I assure you that other colorists in the UK or elsewhere are not doing that as part of their color grading work.
>>Kays Alatrakchi
Filmmaker based in Los Angeles, CA
http://moviesbykays.com

Resolve 18.1.4, Mac OS X 12.6.3 (Monterey), iMac Pro 64Gb RAM, Decklink Mini 4K, LG C9

Mac Book Air M1, Mac OS X 12.6 (Monterey), 16Gb RAM
Next

Return to Post Production

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 33 guests