Blackmagic Reference Monitor

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Ellory Yu

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Blackmagic Reference Monitor

PostMon Oct 31, 2022 3:46 pm

I’d like to see a reasonably price 42” reference monitor from BM that has a built in calibration, scopes, 3D LUTS, and color quality that colorist will vote for. Not sure if this is in their hardware stack for the future.
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Steve Fishwick

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Re: Blackmagic Reference Monitor

PostMon Oct 31, 2022 4:30 pm

It's unlikely to happen - it's a very specialised and crowded market, difficult to make proper ones cheaply too. FSI, Eizo, Asus, SmallHD and some quite good LGs abound, amongst many others. Built in calibration is quite useless in the vast majority of cases too - highly advisable to calibrate with an external probe and good software.
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: Blackmagic Reference Monitor

PostThu Nov 03, 2022 6:43 pm

FSI is your BM when it comes to monitors. It would be very difficult to make it cheaper as it's relatively small market. On top of this - you need a good panel. As of today there are really just few companies which produce panels and they seems to be less and less interested in reference ones (they probably not really profitable). BM won't make own panel as they have 0 experience with it and no "know how" (it's also not that easy and costly). Only way would be a special deal with one of the manufactures.
FSI is just using modded consumer panel, but this has its limitations. Sony stoped making OLED ref panels, Panasonic as well. There is nothing (as far as I know) there and we had nothing new for quite a time. Last good panel was dual layer Panasonic one.

FSI doesn't even take orders for XM312U anymore.
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Marc Wielage

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Re: Blackmagic Reference Monitor

PostSat Nov 05, 2022 7:57 am

Ellory Yu wrote:I’d like to see a reasonably price 42” reference monitor from BM that has a built in calibration, scopes, 3D LUTS, and color quality that colorist will vote for. Not sure if this is in their hardware stack for the future.

There was a time some years ago when Red Camera promised an "affordable" laser projector that would provide color-accurate D-Cinema images at an affordable price, under $10,000. They demoed prototypes a couple of times at trade shows... but it never happened. I think the reality is that manufacturing monitors and projectors is a really tough business, plus it's only a very limited market. If it were easy to do, trust me, Blackmagic and Red and everybody else would be doing it.

It's interesting to note that Sony has yet to replace its long-in-the-tooth BVM-X310 reference display. If you follow the HDTest guy on YouTube, he's said that the LG 32EP950 gives you more than 90% of the performance of the Sony BVM, but for roughly 1/6th of the price ($4000 vs. $25,000). Getting that extra 10% performance costs you $20K more, whether you go with Canon or Eizo or FSI or Sony or TV Logic.
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: Blackmagic Reference Monitor

PostSat Nov 05, 2022 2:42 pm

RGB panel, so this is good, but peak brightness is <600nits, so not good. Another thing: it uses much bigger B pixels (to achieve higher brightness I assume) which is not good when it comes to preserving color volume. Creates similar problems as WRGB panels. 90% of reference screens? I would argue with this claim.
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Kays Alatrakchi

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Re: Blackmagic Reference Monitor

PostMon Nov 07, 2022 5:33 pm

Ellory Yu wrote:I’d like to see a reasonably price 42” reference monitor from BM that has a built in calibration, scopes, 3D LUTS, and color quality that colorist will vote for. Not sure if this is in their hardware stack for the future.



Despite the naysayers, I find this to be not only a reasonable request, but one that absolutely makes sense within the Blackmagic "studio" ecosystem that they've been building for the past decade.

Considering that I can go buy a decent LG OLED panel at Best Buy for around $1000, which when properly calibrated will get me in a really good ballpark for rec709 and maybe even some P3 work, I think that the components are there for Blackmagic to do the same.

My friend Illya at Hot Rod Cameras in Burbank sells exactly that, pre-calibrated LG OLED TV's, and they're a major hit.

I think Blackmagic could absolutely get into the game, and deliver a similar panel, perhaps even with a built-in calibration sensor EIZO-style, and keep it well within the $2000 range.

Also, I think FSI monitors are hyped like crazy in the community, they have an almost religious following among colorists which IMHO isn't healthy; especially considering that they buy their panels from the same factories as everyone else. Some new competition from Blackmagic would do everybody some good!
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Ellory Yu

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Re: Blackmagic Reference Monitor

PostMon Nov 07, 2022 5:42 pm

Kays Alatrakchi wrote:
My friend Illya at Hot Rod Cameras in Burbank sells exactly that, pre-calibrated LG OLED TV's, and they're a major hit.

Kay’s, I don’t see this offered on their website. Do you know where I can find te info and pricing?
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: Blackmagic Reference Monitor

PostMon Nov 07, 2022 5:52 pm

You can do it, but you can't call it reference monitor as those consumer OLED panels are not reference level. Use of W pixel destroys saturation at higher brightness which is huge problem (as FSI guy said- above 200 nits colors are basically lost). They would have to be careful with claims and advertisement. It would work for many semi-pro users, but not for pro market for sure. Also of the shelf panels can't even hit 1000 nits properly. It's not as easy as you think. You have LG TVs already at good price (with calibration- just pay for proper calibration.

Latest FSI HDR screen is based on consumer panel, but with many tweaks and totally unique backlight system developed by FSI+ panel manufacture. It's not of the self panel. Saying this- they already stopped selling it. FSI can't do a miracle either, which current situation with lack of proper HDR panels confirmed.

Atm. it would be probably easier to do with zoned IPS panel than with OLED. You just have to create better backlight system to minimise blooming effect further. It's a massive compromise as well, but there is not much what can be done atm.
Even mentioned LG or Asus OLED monitors based on RGB JOLED panel are problematic. They use much bigger B pixels (so more blue to get more brightness), yet can hit <600 nits.
Could be done for SDR and Rec.709 though as this is easily achievable with today's (even consumer) tech.
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Re: Blackmagic Reference Monitor

PostMon Nov 07, 2022 7:35 pm

Kays Alatrakchi wrote:
Ellory Yu wrote:I’d like to see a reasonably price 42” reference monitor from BM that has a built in calibration, scopes, 3D LUTS, and color quality that colorist will vote for. Not sure if this is in their hardware stack for the future.



Despite the naysayers, I find this to be not only a reasonable request, but one that absolutely makes sense within the Blackmagic "studio" ecosystem that they've been building for the past decade.

Considering that I can go buy a decent LG OLED panel at Best Buy for around $1000, which when properly calibrated will get me in a really good ballpark for rec709 and maybe even some P3 work, I think that the components are there for Blackmagic to do the same.

My friend Illya at Hot Rod Cameras in Burbank sells exactly that, pre-calibrated LG OLED TV's, and they're a major hit.

I think Blackmagic could absolutely get into the game, and deliver a similar panel, perhaps even with a built-in calibration sensor EIZO-style, and keep it well within the $2000 range.

Also, I think FSI monitors are hyped like crazy in the community, they have an almost religious following among colorists which IMHO isn't healthy; especially considering that they buy their panels from the same factories as everyone else. Some new competition from Blackmagic would do everybody some good!



LG manufactures its own OLED panels. They are one of the few. And of the few, they are one of 2 that has mass market penetration allowing them to lower prices. Samsung is the other. (Sony was also).

BM can make its own displays but it will need LG, Samsung, etc to manufacture the panels.

The issue is at what level do they want to compete? The consumer sub $5K level or the higher-end or even ultra high-end?
As you go higher, the market shrinks quickly. Not many people are willing to spend $32K for a 32" monitor.
But at the low end, can it beat LG at their own game? At the same price? Doubt it.
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Re: Blackmagic Reference Monitor

PostMon Nov 07, 2022 7:45 pm

Pro market doesn’t basically exist atm. as there is no single suitable panel out there. It’s all back stock of Panasonic dual layer panel ( and existing Sony OLED/Dolby screens) and then nothing, except consumer panels which are simply not good enough for reference screens.
Not a single announcement (at least I have not seen one) about any new possible ref panel either. Industry has to deal with what is there, so it’s all shifting down with reference level. Luckily bigger studios have older models.
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Re: Blackmagic Reference Monitor

PostMon Nov 07, 2022 8:04 pm

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:Pro market doesn’t basically exist atm. as there is no single suitable panel out there. It’s all back stock of Panasonic dual layer panel ( and existing Sony OLED/Dolby screens) and then nothing, except consumer panels which are simply not good enough for reference screens.
Not a single announcement (at least I have not seen one) about any new possible ref panel either. Industry has to deal with what is there, so it’s all shifting down with reference level. Luckily bigger studios have older models.


I prefer the X310 over the X300. It is more stable both in color and brightness.
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Re: Blackmagic Reference Monitor

PostMon Nov 07, 2022 8:19 pm

Ellory Yu wrote:Kays, I don’t see this offered on their website. Do you know where I can find te info and pricing?


Contact them directly, they will give you all the info.

https://hotrodcameras.com
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Re: Blackmagic Reference Monitor

PostMon Nov 07, 2022 8:26 pm

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:You can do it, but you can't call it reference monitor as those consumer OLED panels are not reference level.


We can get into semantics, and of course a 32" Blackmagic Color Grading Monitor Pro running around $1999 will not compare to a Sony panel running at $25,000+, but it'd be fine for most people's needs.

Most colorists are not functioning within the studio/network market. They're grading for clients with much more modest means that simply don't really need the level of accuracy that, say, HBO or Disney expect. Most of them are using LG OLED's anyway at the moment, I don't see why Blackmagic couldn't enter that section of the market.

Regarding price, Blackmagic doesn't have to undercut LG or Sony, they need to offer a better solution that fits the needs of the majority of their clientele in the same way that they offer cameras that compete within a similar space as RED and ARRI without necessarily saying that they're better.

Ultimately, I'll defer to Grant as I'm sure he's got a pretty good grasp on the market and what new products they should bring to it.
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Re: Blackmagic Reference Monitor

PostMon Nov 07, 2022 8:28 pm

mpetech wrote:
Andrew Kolakowski wrote:Pro market doesn’t basically exist atm. as there is no single suitable panel out there. It’s all back stock of Panasonic dual layer panel ( and existing Sony OLED/Dolby screens) and then nothing, except consumer panels which are simply not good enough for reference screens.
Not a single announcement (at least I have not seen one) about any new possible ref panel either. Industry has to deal with what is there, so it’s all shifting down with reference level. Luckily bigger studios have older models.


I prefer the X310 over the X300. It is more stable both in color and brightness.


Maybe today Sony could make better OLED panel, but they struggled with last one and simply gave up.
Not seen X310, but then it comes to visual experience X300 is amazing.

From what I've seen on prade.de comparison test Eizo may be actually better than Sony. I think Eizo processing is superior (24bit processing with 24bit luts). Eizo seems to be more polished than Sony (+you have full calibration possibility).
And of course now Eizo site says that Prominence is not produced anymore (at least by info on Polish website). Eizo ran out of panels as well (Panasonic stopped production quit a time ago as far as I understand).
Last edited by Andrew Kolakowski on Wed Nov 09, 2022 11:45 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Blackmagic Reference Monitor

PostMon Nov 07, 2022 8:34 pm

Kays Alatrakchi wrote:
Andrew Kolakowski wrote:You can do it, but you can't call it reference monitor as those consumer OLED panels are not reference level.


We can get into semantics, and of course a 32" Blackmagic Color Grading Monitor Pro running around $1999 will not compare to a Sony panel running at $25,000+, but it'd be fine for most people's needs.

Most colorists are not functioning within the studio/network market. They're grading for clients with much more modest means that simply don't really need the level of accuracy that, say, HBO or Disney expect. Most of them are using LG OLED's anyway at the moment, I don't see why Blackmagic couldn't enter that section of the market.

Regarding price, Blackmagic doesn't have to undercut LG or Sony, they need to offer a better solution that fits the needs of the majority of their clientele in the same way that they offer cameras that compete within a similar space as RED and ARRI without necessarily saying that they're better.

Ultimately, I'll defer to Grant as I'm sure he's got a pretty good grasp on the market and what new products they should bring to it.


Yes, but you forgotten about knowledge, know how and actual engineers. This would be another 'division' for BM, which I think is already quite stretched (compared to old days there is about nothing new from BM). I don't see it making huge money (or any money worth the hassle), but I don't mind them introducing such a monitor :)
As you said, it doesn't have to be better than current 30K ones, but it has to "make sense" and offer something on top of current choices. One of the ways would be to buy FSI- this could work. They have needed knowledge and skills. BM money + worldwide sales network would make it 'easier' to reach potential clients.
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Re: Blackmagic Reference Monitor

PostTue Nov 08, 2022 12:59 am

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:From what I've seen on prade.de comparison test Eizo may be actually better than Sony. I think Eizo processing is superior (24bit processing with 24bit luts). Eizo seems to be more polished than Sony (+you have full calibration possibility).


In case someone is looking for it, it's prad.de, Andrew.
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Re: Blackmagic Reference Monitor

PostTue Nov 08, 2022 2:06 am

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:And of course now Eizo site says that Prominence is not produced anymore. Eizo ran out of panels as well (Panasonic stopped production quit a time ago as far as I understand).

This reminds me of a piece of rock climbing equipment called the Silent Partner, the best device for a particularly esoteric discipline. Despite being inarguably the best piece of kit for the job, it has long since been discontinued, and fetches a king's ransom online, because it's simply too expensive to manufacture given the highly interested, but highly limited group after one. I hope there's a replacement for the venerable X300 panel before too long.
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Re: Blackmagic Reference Monitor

PostTue Nov 08, 2022 8:07 am

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:From what I've seen on prade.de comparison test Eizo may be actually better than Sony. I think Eizo processing is superior (24bit processing with 24bit luts).


FWIW in SDR UK HD broadcast delivery, I have seen mostly the venerable FSI DM240s and increasingly the Eizo 319. I recently finished a BBC game show series on the Eizo and I was very impressed for the price. Sony are not used or recommended now as they don't have a way to load calibration 3D Luts. I don't know about the top X300/310s, since I have never worked on them. HDR UHD/4K is the really problematic arena for good panels currently, and the even adequate ones are very expensive. The LG consumer TVs are not suitable for that as Andrew stated. Whilst Oleds have infinite contrast, usually quoted at 1 million:1, they currently and possibly will never, reach the required nits accurately, or at all. Fald is faux contrast that has problematic blooming artefacts. The double panel Leds, mentioned, very expensive are the only current technology capable of accurate reference HDR grading. New technology is coming down the line, slowly but it will most likely replace Oleds. Oleds are still very good for SDR Rec.709 though, but there are enough Leds like the Eizo 319 or DM240 (deprecated) that are also adequate and cheaper too, for that purpose.
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Re: Blackmagic Reference Monitor

PostTue Nov 08, 2022 9:20 am

Jack Fairley wrote:
Andrew Kolakowski wrote:And of course now Eizo site says that Prominence is not produced anymore. Eizo ran out of panels as well (Panasonic stopped production quit a time ago as far as I understand).

This reminds me of a piece of rock climbing equipment called the Silent Partner, the best device for a particularly esoteric discipline. Despite being inarguably the best piece of kit for the job, it has long since been discontinued, and fetches a king's ransom online, because it's simply too expensive to manufacture given the highly interested, but highly limited group after one. I hope there's a replacement for the venerable X300 panel before too long.


Eizo uses same Panasonic panel as Sony, FSI ( did and quickly ran out of stock) and few other manufacturers.
Panasonic shut down whole R&D team for dual layer tech, so there won’t be new ones or new stock. Most likely reason is that those panels are simply too power hungry ( due to 2 layers construction) so they would never meet EU etc. power needs restrictions, so it means no global market. Keeping R&D and production just for pro market is probably not financially feasible, so it’s gone now.
Similar story with Sony’s OLED panel. It was difficult to make, they said they struggle massively with bigger size and then gave up ( as Panasonic panel show up). There is a desperate need for new ref class panel now.
Last edited by Andrew Kolakowski on Tue Nov 08, 2022 9:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Blackmagic Reference Monitor

PostTue Nov 08, 2022 9:23 am

Steve Fishwick wrote:
Andrew Kolakowski wrote:From what I've seen on prade.de comparison test Eizo may be actually better than Sony. I think Eizo processing is superior (24bit processing with 24bit luts).


FWIW in SDR UK HD broadcast delivery, I have seen mostly the venerable FSI DM240s and increasingly the Eizo 319. I recently finished a BBC game show series on the Eizo and I was very impressed for the price. Sony are not used or recommended now as they don't have a way to load calibration 3D Luts. I don't know about the top X300/310s, since I have never worked on them. HDR UHD/4K is the really problematic arena for good panels currently, and the even adequate ones are very expensive. The LG consumer TVs are not suitable for that as Andrew stated. Whilst Oleds have infinite contrast, usually quoted at 1 million:1, they currently and possibly will never, reach the required nits accurately, or at all. Fald is faux contrast that has problematic blooming artefacts. The double panel Leds, mentioned, very expensive are the only current technology capable of accurate reference HDR grading. New technology is coming down the line, slowly but it will most likely replace Oleds. Oleds are still very good for SDR Rec.709 though, but there are enough Leds like the Eizo 319 or DM240 (deprecated) that are also adequate and cheaper too, for that purpose.


Sony doesn’t offer full calibration so many studios stay away from it. It’s Sony’s strange decision.
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Re: Blackmagic Reference Monitor

PostTue Nov 08, 2022 9:30 am

Uli Plank wrote:
Andrew Kolakowski wrote:From what I've seen on prade.de comparison test Eizo may be actually better than Sony. I think Eizo processing is superior (24bit processing with 24bit luts). Eizo seems to be more polished than Sony (+you have full calibration possibility).


In case someone is looking for it, it's prad.de, Andrew.


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Re: Blackmagic Reference Monitor

PostTue Nov 08, 2022 10:49 am

I feel your pain. I'm glad the new one is good again.
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Re: Blackmagic Reference Monitor

PostWed Nov 09, 2022 10:19 pm

Jack Fairley wrote:I hope there's a replacement for the venerable X300 panel before too long.

The 32" BVM-X310 is still a current product (about $24,000 when I last checked):

https://pro.sony/ue_US/products/broadca ... /bvm-hx310

The head office for North America is in Montvale, NJ, and you can reach them at (800) 523-7669.

There are not a lot of what the EBU classifies as a "Grade-1" monitor, but the BVM-X310 is certainly one of them. There isn't a lot of competition out there these days.
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Re: Blackmagic Reference Monitor

PostFri Nov 11, 2022 7:38 pm

We have some of them, luckily, but I mean the actual screen manufactured by Panasonic.
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Re: Blackmagic Reference Monitor

PostFri Nov 11, 2022 8:27 pm

And it's 1MLN$ (maybe bit less) question - how many panels are in hands of companies which make monitors based on them- Sony, Eizo, Ikegami, TvLogic etc.
Panasonic shut production quite a time ago as far as I understand, so once panels are gone it's the end. FSI already doesn't sell their monitor anymore as they don't have panels.
BHP is out of stock on Sony.
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Re: Blackmagic Reference Monitor

PostSat Nov 12, 2022 4:05 am

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:Sony doesn’t offer full calibration so many studios stay away from it. It’s Sony’s strange decision.

That is not true. The BVM-X300 and BVM-X310 are -- hands-down -- the most widely-used reference displays at CO3, Deluxe, Picture Shop, and every other major broadcast post house in LA. I bet there's 150 of them in town, easily. There aren't a lot of Grade-1 displays on the market... period. The video engineers figured out how to calibrate the BVMs years ago with Calman or even Light Illusion -- but they use a Klein colorimeter or a Colorimetry Research spectrometer for the measurements, not Sony.
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Re: Blackmagic Reference Monitor

PostSat Nov 12, 2022 9:59 am

Either Sony offers calibration or engineers had to “figure out” how to calibrate them.
I don't see an official way even in latest models (only white point as it use to be with older models).
It doesn’t mean they are not accurate as they are rather very accurate. You can always store LUT outside monitor.

Your mentioned hacked way may be by using look LUTs (which Sony does offer) for calibration purposes or (through some service menu). None is an official way, which doesn't mean much as you can always calibrate from grading app level (may be actually better as it compensates for whole chain not just for monitor itself).
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Re: Blackmagic Reference Monitor

PostSat Nov 12, 2022 3:19 pm

Not 42" but the PVM-X1800 is a great compromise - quite popular.

https://pro.sony/en_CA/products/broadcastpromonitors/pvm-x1800
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Re: Blackmagic Reference Monitor

PostSat Nov 12, 2022 4:11 pm

18inch and this is PVM (so not grade 1), so big compromise.
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Re: Blackmagic Reference Monitor

PostSat Nov 12, 2022 4:16 pm

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:so big compromise.


Cake and eat it? :D

I'd argue that compared to an LG OLED, this will be much better for colour critical work. Get a big OLED if needed, but have this as your primary reference IMHO.
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Re: Blackmagic Reference Monitor

PostSat Nov 12, 2022 4:31 pm

Not necessarily. It's an IPS panel, so if it's not dual layer then not sure how it provides HDR (zones)?
It doesn't fully cover P3 gamut either (if it's 98%+ then ok, but it doesn't say).
Sony PVM series is not a reference series. It's also 18 inch.
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Re: Blackmagic Reference Monitor

PostSun Nov 13, 2022 8:42 am

Besides pro colorist and those with eyes trained to see color, the rest of the viewing population can’t distinguish or even comprehend what it is to be color accurate. Although it may be good for big post houses and Disney to pay oodles of dollars to be what is color accurate in a reference monitor, the rest who are making commercials, shorts and independent features, event gigs do not need to have accurate color. Good color, yes. Since their viewership won’t be able to tell and if the story or construction of the imagery is appealing, no one would care… well except you if you insist on grading with a color accurate monitor. Therefore my 2 cents is that 10% won’t be happy unless they grade using an expensive FSI, Sony, or Panasonic reference monitor, while 90% will be content and happy with a calibrated LG OLED or even a BENQ VA monitor that delivers 100% Rec709 and 98% P3. Honestly, no one can even tell if the director having the colors want it to be accurate or artistic.
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: Blackmagic Reference Monitor

PostSun Nov 13, 2022 11:51 am

There is no such a thing like accurate or artistic colors. They are all artistic. Accuracy is just to make sure they look the same between devices, yet look is different even between best grade 1 monitors, so...

Standards are needed for sure, but whole accuracy is just another hype.
Each technology has its "look" and even if monitor is calibrated to perfection it may still look different than other one also calibrated to perfection (Dolby PRM vs Sony X300). Which one is correct ? (not going to mention about cinema).
On top of any calibration it's all subjective as each person will see slightly differently.
Industry focuses on "deltas", but this is just half of the story. Trying to get them <3, <1 etc. is really not the biggest issues. At some point it's just good enough and if average is 0.6 or 1.2 is really meaningless, because you have things like coating, angles, blooming, uniformity, near black banding, burning issue, color volume etc. These are more important than whole color deltas today.

You really have to think what is worse- having eg. blooming effect or monitor which can reach 700 nits instead of 1000 nits. Do you want one which shows visible screen uniformity issues or one which is uniform, but have near black level issue?
Match your monitor to your projects needs and target audience. Know your monitor weak points and learn how to work around them. You can still get an Oscar for your movie :) Leave 30K monitors to Hollywood.

So good monitor is not the one with great deltas, but one which doesn't shift far from important parameters and in the same time doesn't exhibits prohibitive issues in other areas than color or gamma tracking, eg. very visible screen uniformity issues.

Funny enough "people" have started to ask important questions, like why movies are graded "so dark", for conditions which are about never met at home environment ? Maybe it's time to wake up and start delivering content for people, not for quite often "artificial specs". Today's TVs can deliver quite good quality. Maybe time to make a use of it. Cinema grade should be for cinema and for "home usage" (BDs, streaming etc.) there should be tweaked grade which really takes into account condition which those movies are watched in (not some perfect, unrealistic scenario). Those things are more important than fact if movie was grade on monitor with color delta at 0.6 or 2 :D
Last edited by Andrew Kolakowski on Sun Nov 13, 2022 12:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Blackmagic Reference Monitor

PostSun Nov 13, 2022 12:29 pm

Words of wisdom again, Andrew. Thanks!
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Re: Blackmagic Reference Monitor

PostSun Nov 13, 2022 7:18 pm

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:There is no such a thing like accurate or artistic colors. They are all artistic. Accuracy is just to make sure they look the same between devices, yet look is different even between best grade 1 monitors, so...


This is not true, Andrew. Calibrated standards exist for a reason. We have those and waveform monitors to work to accurate standards, that are, if properly calibrated, interchangeable between professional facilities. It does not matter what the home consumer does with their TV, we still need a common operating reference. As human beings our senses often lie and this is why we need calibrated tools. It's the same with sound too.

Anyone can actually learn to become a colourist, even with less than perfect colour sensibility IMV. If you work day in day out grading, you soon get a feel for what is right and what is not. I'm not saying everyone can be a Hollywood guru but dedicated application can help us all. The accurate tools are the ultimate safety check for specific delivery standards.

In reference to what Ellory was saying earlier too, I'm sorry I can't agree less. You don't have to buy expensive Grade 1 monitors, only if that is your job, such as it is mine a lot of the time. But there are still very affordable monitors available and the trick is to calibrate them accurately, at least enough. It's not that hard or expensive. A cheapish Xrite Probe will go a long way to improving such a workflow. A cheap BMD video I/O device, rather than a computer GPU output will always be a huge step up too. IMV again it's imperative to work to acceptable calibrated standards for professional delivery of all sorts. You may only deliver for the web, or whatever but a consistent workflow and colour accuracy, will always help whatever material you deliver.

I understand the costs seems off putting for many but I don't understand why people scrimp on these things when they will spend thousands on cameras etc. The final output is everything and as I say it needn't cost the earth to have accurate calibrated standards, at all.
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: Blackmagic Reference Monitor

PostSun Nov 13, 2022 7:25 pm

What is an "accurate color for a movie" ?
Standards and accuracy is for devices to be consistent between each other.
You pick a color and expect every monitor to display it identically according to rules (gamma etc.) provided by given standard. What colour you pick is up to you :)
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Re: Blackmagic Reference Monitor

PostSun Nov 13, 2022 7:30 pm

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:What is an "accurate color for a movie" ?


Andrew, all I know is that I can move from suite to suite at any good facility and the properly calibrated Grade 1 reference monitors will be identical to my eye. What is accurate colour? For us it is Rec. 709, Rec. 2020, whatever and the accurate probes and software that calibrate to those standards. It's not looking out of the window and saying is my monitor accurate, like that.
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Re: Blackmagic Reference Monitor

PostSun Nov 13, 2022 7:54 pm

You are talking about the same thing, just I don't get what author had in mind by "artistic and accurate" movie color :)
With this accuracy. Are they really that close ?
Have you seen eg. Dolby PRM next to Sony X300 or next to some Canon (in the same room)?
Some studios never put two different grade 1 displays in the same room for the exact reason- they not necessarily look exactly the same, regardless how perfectly they are calibrated :) And if you mix technology (OLED, LDC, etc ) they will never look the same. They may look the same if you use same brand and same tech. It's enough one company uses slightly different coating (eg. glossy vs mat) and "visual experience" is already slightly different. Very good example- Sony HX310 and Eizo Prominence (both use same panel).
So accuracy is good/needed, it just doesn't always translate to perfectly same "visual experience".
Then you go to cinema and things change totally as it's yet very different visual experience, just purely based on fact you seat and very dark room and screen is massive. So probes are good, but their results not always translates that well into real life.
This is why I dot think you should be stressed that much if your monitor is not providing <1 deltas :D
Last edited by Andrew Kolakowski on Sun Nov 13, 2022 8:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Blackmagic Reference Monitor

PostSun Nov 13, 2022 8:02 pm

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:You are talking about the same thing


Possibly we are :) Let me re-phrase where I can agree with you: There is little 'accurate IMV at the photographic end of our business; each manufacturer has their 'colour science'; white balance changes; colours change throughout the day and the artistic aim of the cinematographer is often far from 'accurate' in colour terms.

But at the post end we need accurate calibrated monitoring and measuring tools to bring together that look. So that we can grade it accurately, consistently. If for example I were to take the notion, when I work as an online or grading editor, that everything is inaccurate and artistic and I love red so my monitor is really red - the broadcaster or VFX house may say, why is everything so blue? We need standards at the output stage - the funnel before is where the creative stuff can happen. I mean, obviously grading can and should be very creative too but without accurate reference, it's like stabbing in the dark.
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Re: Blackmagic Reference Monitor

PostSun Nov 13, 2022 8:11 pm

Yes, just you don't have to be so pedantic about it as some may claim because whole human vision is very complex and there are plenty other elements which affect final seen picture. Calibrate, verify (not just monitor but whole signal chain) and if you around given standard it should be fine. Don't just chase deltas which seems to becoming a trend :)
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Re: Blackmagic Reference Monitor

PostSun Nov 13, 2022 8:16 pm

Pedantic Andrew, Moi? :lol: As I say our senses lie unfortunately, this is true. This is why in all technology accurate measuring instruments are the crux and staff of our achievements.
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Re: Blackmagic Reference Monitor

PostSun Nov 13, 2022 8:23 pm

We need to focus more on those standards to be properly respected by monitors/TV manufactures, MS, Apple etc. as now this is real issue, not deltas at 2.5 :D There is so much more needed to be done before we get to deltas.
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Re: Blackmagic Reference Monitor

PostMon Nov 14, 2022 12:26 pm

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:Either Sony offers calibration or engineers had to “figure out” how to calibrate them. I don't see an official way even in latest models (only white point as it use to be with older models).
It doesn’t mean they are not accurate as they are rather very accurate. You can always store LUT outside monitor.

You don't know what you're talking about.

Steve Fishwick wrote:Andrew, all I know is that I can move from suite to suite at any good facility and the properly calibrated Grade 1 reference monitors will be identical to my eye. What is accurate colour? For us it is Rec. 709, Rec. 2020, whatever and the accurate probes and software that calibrate to those standards. It's not looking out of the window and saying is my monitor accurate, like that.

Three times, I've had to take a Rec709 project out of our room (which uses a higher-end calibrted LG OLED display) and take it over to a broadcast mastering facility using a BVM-X300 in order to supervise a Dolby Vision grade. Three times, I've said, "wow, the color is about 95% perfect right out of the box." It was so close, I doubt if anybody would notice it except me. The trim went fine and the Dolby Vision pass went right through QC with flying colors. Zero problems.

Would I still rather use a BVM-X300 than an LG? Yes. Is the LG close enough most fo the time? For 100-nit Rec709, sure.
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Re: Blackmagic Reference Monitor

PostMon Nov 14, 2022 9:27 pm

Show me where Sony offers storing users calibration LUTs in their monitors?
Hacky way, maybe. I won't argue with this, but no official way.

I can show you 2 different mentions: one from Vincent and 2nd from Steve from lightillusion.

Post with your own input:
https://liftgammagain.com/forum/index.p ... ors.14127/

Whenever we are called in to calibrate a Sony display, we always make sure a decent LUT box is the last connection in the image path, immediately before the display.

Steve


Also, great post by some who represents same idea as place where I use to work:
"In most cases we are are required to have side by side presentations of material. In the case of motion picture production, the image present on the mastering grade monitor as it was specified by the client and presented to the director for signoff is the correct image."

This is why some studios never put two grade 1 monitors in the same room (specially different brands, technology based), as you have no guarantee they will look 100% the same, so client can always ask- which one is correct then ? :lol:

This also sums up whole idea of chasing deltas < certain (already low) values as they don't guarantee same look at all even on grade 1 monitors.
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Re: Blackmagic Reference Monitor

PostTue Nov 15, 2022 9:12 am

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:This also sums up whole idea of chasing deltas < certain (already low) values as they don't guarantee same look at all even on grade 1 monitors.


The Delta E figure is a useful metric, Andrew in that is usually an indication of the accuracy and drift of a professional monitor. This is partly down to the panel quality but also the processing in higher end monitors. Whilst it is true that it is impossible for all monitors, even Grade 1 to be absolutely identical, their accuracy and consistency can be enough for our eyes, in grading environments, especially if the calibration indicates so - you don't normally grade with 2 reference monitors at the same time.

It is not essential that a monitor is capable of taking 3D Luts to be classed as a Grade 1 monitor. Being capable of initial calibration with such as an SMPTE chart, in blue only can then be very important for subsequent 3D Lut calibration, which can be delivered by an outside mechanism. Many prosumer monitors with 3D Lut capability are incapable of the former, for example, which can somewhat defeat the purpose.
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Re: Blackmagic Reference Monitor

PostTue Nov 15, 2022 10:19 am

Useful I agree, but people don't have to chase deltas if they are already <3 or so. As important are other monitor parameters like uniformity etc.
Same with storing internal LUTs- useful, but external LUT will do as well and will compensate not only for monitor, but also signal chain problems. Sony doesn't offer internal LUTs. Just white point calibration which then should give you guarantee about overall accuracy. It seems to work, but it's not perfect which is argued (and proved) by Steve.
Whole grade 1 spec is just a recommendation because if you try to follow it 100% then probably not a single monitor will be grade 1.
Rule should be simple- if you have grade 1 monitor then it's accurate and fact it doesn't perfectly match other grade 1 monitors is meaningless (well I assume this is how most studios operate and they typically have monitors from same brand).
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Re: Blackmagic Reference Monitor

PostTue Nov 15, 2022 11:21 am

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:Useful I agree, but people don't have to chase deltas if they are already <3 or so. As important are other monitor parameters like uniformity etc..

We almost always aim for a dE of below 1.0 whenever possible. What display are you using, and what probe and calibration software are you using?
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Re: Blackmagic Reference Monitor

PostTue Nov 15, 2022 3:16 pm

It's not me, but place where I use to work. They had best gear you can get as it was top London studio.
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Re: Blackmagic Reference Monitor

PostWed Nov 16, 2022 10:40 am

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:Whole grade 1 spec is just a recommendation because if you try to follow it 100% then probably not a single monitor will be grade 1.
Rule should be simple- if you have grade 1 monitor then it's accurate and fact it doesn't perfectly match other grade 1 monitors is meaningless (well I assume this is how most studios operate and they typically have monitors from same brand).


Again Andrew this is not true, at least in the case of the EBU, which others like Netflix seem to follow. There are a set of defined technical parameters that make a monitor either Grade 1 or not. Amongst those are, for SDR Rec. 709, are a minimum contrast ratio of 2000:1 and having a tally lamp. It is true many monitors, such as the FSI DM240/1, fail to reach this, being 1500:1 and 1100:1 only, same with the Eizo leds. However they can and are still used in professional grading environments, since other more important qualities, make them serviceable and tally lamps are meaningless out side of a gallery. Oleds with their infinite contrast easily surpass the contrast requirement but they can be deceptive with sub blacks particularly. 3D Luts can be also rather crude, many monitors only accepting 17point ones. In the days of CRT and early LCDs, before them it was still possible to calibrate monitors to standards. The only reason facilities use FSIs and Eizos now, instead of more expensive Sony's is that they are cheaper, whilst still being able to do the job, in experienced hands; Accurate white point is a very important and a Delta of only <3 is not very good, as Marc indicates; If the panel's not uniform and you've paid 5K or more, I would send it back too.

Calibration is the absolute metric. Unfortunately for the most accurate calibration any colorimeter probe needs to calibrated itself, with an offset, against usually a Spectrometer. FSI provide their own custom Xrite probe with these offsets already built in, another plus in their market sector. It's probably in the end best, and why, facilities normally call the services of a specialist in calibration, for this purpose. For ourselves it's not hugely complex and daunting and calibration with a probe and DisplayCal software will get you working with accuracy far beyond not doing so. I wouldn't read everything into what the manufacturers and developers of calibration software say, since they seem to argue amongst themselves on public forums and their job is to make it seem, far more critical and complex than it should be.

There are monitors that can easily be classed as Grade 1, for SDR, around the 5K or more mark - HDR is much more critical and few below 25-30K, could ever be classed, so at the moment, certainly not LG consumer Oleds.
Last edited by Steve Fishwick on Wed Nov 16, 2022 11:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Blackmagic Reference Monitor

PostWed Nov 16, 2022 11:02 am

What is not true in fact that spec says minimum 2000:1 and monitors do <1500:1? Contrast is defined as "shall" so it means monitor has to be able to deliver it. This means you can't treat EBU spec literally, but more like a recommendation and try to be as close as possible to it. Otherwise you may have no monitor to work on :)

I know all of it. Worked at place which had 15+ Dolby PRM monitors.
This again brings you back to the fact that any monitor which is really close to grade 1 should be treated as reference and fact it still doesn't guarantee same look as other grade 1 monitor is meaningless (this is basically what you are saying). Also good practice is to avoid two grade 1 monitors in 1 room (and some studio use this rule).
People (experts, developers...) argue, because visual experience is very complex subject and your best probe is not going to change it. As I said- enough to put different coating on the same panel and you have slightly (or maybe not even slightly) different visual experience.
Similarly what you said- I rather had uniform monitor with good contrast with delta at 3 them one with delta <1 but with poor other parameters. This is my point and "perfection" is meaningless as you can't achieve it anyway.

Not sure if you know how Sony set price for X300? :)
I worked with this monitor before it was released to the public and have some insights about it, including pricing.
Last edited by Andrew Kolakowski on Wed Nov 16, 2022 11:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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