Portable setup with Decklink 8K Pro and Thunderbolt chasiss

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Rob Swart

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Portable setup with Decklink 8K Pro and Thunderbolt chasiss

PostThu Dec 29, 2022 3:05 pm

I’m trying to create an affordable portable multicam recording and streaming setup.

I’m thinking about the Decklink 8K Pro card inside a good Thunderbolt 3 Chassis connected to a Macbook Pro M1 Max.

I’m aware that a Thundebolt 3 chassis has a limit of PCIe gen 3 x4. This will certainly limit the possibilities of the card.

I’m wondering though whether I’d be able to simultaneously record the following inputs reliably. Two inputs with UHD 4K@25fps signals and at least one but preferrably two 1080p@25fps signals.

Anyone explored and experienced the limits of this type of setup?

Thanks in advance for any info.
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David Laplant

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Re: Portable setup with Decklink 8K Pro and Thunderbolt chas

PostSat Jan 21, 2023 5:38 pm

Me to. Would this be possible with an M1 Mini or what would be needed.
I am thinking about a Setup with 2 of those chassis and 2 Cards. Would that be possible?
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Rob Swart

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Re: Portable setup with Decklink 8K Pro and Thunderbolt chas

PostSat Jan 21, 2023 9:40 pm

David Laplant wrote:Me to. Would this be possible with an M1 Mini or what would be needed.
I am thinking about a Setup with 2 of those chassis and 2 Cards. Would that be possible?


AJA sells the IO 4K+ which has four 4K inputs and uses a Thunderbolt 3 connection. But I can’t seem to find a confirmation anywhere of whether that device allows for capturing all four inputs with a 4K signals at once. I’m starting to doubt that.

If the AJA IO 4K could capture all four 4K signals I was hoping a Decklink Quad HDMI or preferrably a Decklink 8K Pro card in the right TB 3 Chassis would also work. I need a minimum of three 4K inputs at 25 fps in a portable setup.

A Decklink 8K Pro card needs an 8 lane PCIe Gen 3 slot and the Sonnet Echo Express SE III chassis is stated as having an PCIe 8 lane slot but as far as I know Thunderbolt 3 is capable of only PCIe 4 lane speeds. The question for me is whether three inputs at 4K 25fps would work when connected to an M1 Max Macbook Pro with Thunderbolt 4 ports.

The other option is, like you suggested, to divide the load over two Thunderbolt 3 ports by using two Thunderbolt 3 chassis’ with two Decklink 8K Pro cards or an 8K Pro in one and for example a Decklink Studio 4K in the other. That I guess would work reliably for capturing three or four 4K signals at 25fps. But it is a lot more expensive and less portable. Prise wise you then aproach or maybe even surpass the AJA IO 4K+ territory which is a lot more portable.

I’ve spoken to a couple of retailers here but they have never tested this kind of setup either.
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Marc Wielage

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Re: Portable setup with Decklink 8K Pro and Thunderbolt chas

PostMon Jan 30, 2023 6:11 am

Rob Swart wrote:I’m trying to create an affordable portable multicam recording and streaming setup. I’m thinking about the Decklink 8K Pro card inside a good Thunderbolt 3 Chassis connected to a Macbook Pro M1 Max.

I don't think a MacBook Pro is going to have the throughput necessary to record multiple HD or 4K cameras simultaneously.

What I see done for (say) live rock concerts or comedy performances being done in auditoriums or arenas is they buy or rent racks and racks of Hyperdeck Studio Pros (HD or 4K), and record on at least one device per camera. In once-in-a-lifetime situations, they'll do two decks per camera. The Hyperdecks record in quite a few different formats, the timecode can be connected between multiple devices (like cameras and audio recorders) to make sure every recording has identical timecode, and it's fairly reliable. Again, you can rent these in large cities, so you don't necessarily have to buy a whole stack of them. I've seen trucks with literally walls of Hyperdecks being used in situations where formerly traditional HDCam or D5 broadcast videotape decks would be used in sports and so on. And the Hyperdecks are about a grand, vs. the $50,000+ the tape decks used to cost.

I get very antsy trying to do anything really mission-critical on a laptop, because the USB-C ports are fragile enough that one minor bump could take down the whole thing. If your situation is very cost-conscious, you could try one of the ATEM SDI Pro ISOs, which will record 4 inputs via HDMI or SDI inputs (depending on the model). It only records in H.264, but it's perfectly fine if you're just doing a show destined for YouTube or something like that.
marc wielage, csi • VP/color & workflow • chroma | hollywood
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: Portable setup with Decklink 8K Pro and Thunderbolt chas

PostTue Jan 31, 2023 5:33 pm

What quality do you need?
Is it just for YouTube?
You can use old approach with SDI/HDMI + recorders or you could do new approach (if ProResLT/Standard quality is enough).
With old approach what is quite important is actual ingest tool. Most are quite simple and crap (eg. MediaExpress). They are unstable and can easily drop recording. With good tool like ToolsOnAir this could work.
Based one their performance sheets:
https://toolsonair.atlassian.net/wiki/s ... heet+v.5.5
M1 Max with ProRes media engines should do it, but issue can be with actual TB connection (2 xUHD 25p should work- 3 probably not, so you would need 2 cards). They could advise you.
When you look at it then it all quickly gets complex, with many hardware elements, connections etc.

I would go modern route. For 2K$ you get 4 channels (up to 4x UHD 60p) NDI recorder which is rather tiny box. You connect your cameras over 12g SDI and then box itself to 10gig network or directly to your machine (you need 10gig port though). With 75$ NDI recorder app you can record (it supports locked recording for many channels) in native NDI codec. There are no CPU needs for this as it's just copy. Premiere even supports editing while recording. I don't think you can make it cheaper (and reliable at the same time) than that (unless you have all hardware like cards and recorders).
Note- Resolve doesn't support native NDI files. I have not tested exactly this setup in real life either (just portions of it).

For h264/5 quality you may buy 4 simple recorders.
HDCAM, D5 what is this? :D
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Rob Swart

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Re: Portable setup with Decklink 8K Pro and Thunderbolt chas

PostFri Apr 21, 2023 8:37 pm

Thanks for the answers and appologies for my late reply. I’ve had to put the portable setup plans in the fridge for a while due to other projects.

I have been using a similar portable setup using 3G BMD Micro Recorders. But I’d like to upgrade this setup to 4K.

I’ve seen videos from Softron. They claim to have tested a Decklink 8K Pro card in a Sonnettech SEIII chassis. They don’t actually show it working but claim it is able to do:

8-bit
4 inputs of 2160p @ 25 and 30fps
2 inputs of UHD60 @ 50 and 60fps

10-bit
4 inputs of 2160p @ 25fps
3 inputs of 2160p @ 30fps
2 inputs of 2160p @ 50fps
1 input of 2160p @ 60fps

These numbers do make sense considering the ~32 Gigabit per second (Gbps) practical bandwidth of a single TB3 connection. Two 12G connections would sum to 24Gbps which a TB3 connection should be able to do. That is of course if you reserve a full TB3 bus without anything else connected. The Macbook Pro M1 Max has three separate 40Gbps TB3 buses.

I need at least three inputs preferably 10-bit and all 2160p @ 25fps.

So if I would use 6G connections it should be possible to do four 8-bit 2160p signals @ 25fps or 30fps which according to Softron should work.

It is definitely possible to do two 2160p @ 30fps inputs using two DeckLink Mini Recorder 4K cards in a Sonnettech SEIII chassis. I’ve seen a video from 9to5Mac where this is tested. So I could of course buy two chassis’ and three of those BMD cards. But that’s a lot more expensive than having a single card in a single chassis for three inputs and the Mini Recorder cards don’t have SDI. Besides I like to reduce as much clutter as possible and have a highly portable but of course reliable setup.

I had just hoped someone here would have been able to confirm from personal experience with an exact same type of setup before I shell out :)
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: Portable setup with Decklink 8K Pro and Thunderbolt chas

PostSat Apr 22, 2023 7:15 am

I would like to see those number working reliably ( not for 1 min).
32gbit for TB3 data bus is only a theoretical speed. I have not seen anything pushing it. It’s more like 27Gbit in real world (3.3GB/sec).
If you could use all TB3 connections then this of course could work.
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Rob Swart

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Re: Portable setup with Decklink 8K Pro and Thunderbolt chas

PostSat Apr 22, 2023 1:33 pm

I would like to see those number working reliably ( not for 1 min).

That’s exactly why I placed my question here in the hope of finding someone with practical experience with a setup like this.

32gbit for TB3 data bus is only a theoretical speed. I have not seen anything pushing it. It’s more like 27Gbit in real world (3.3GB/sec).

In my experience ~32Gbps is the practical maximum speed that one can get out of TB3. But still, even at 27Gbps it should be able to handle three 6G inputs of 2160p @ 25fps. As long as nothing else connected like a hard drive for example that can steal away overhead bandwidth from the Thunderbolt Bus. I’d prefer 10-bit but if it’s not possible than 8-bit would suffice.

I might have to take the plunge. If I can’t get three inputs working reliably into a Decklink 8K Pro card, I can always expand to two chassis’.
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: Portable setup with Decklink 8K Pro and Thunderbolt chas

PostSat Apr 22, 2023 10:05 pm

If you are happy with around ProRes standard alike quality then I would not go to card setup.
What capture tool are you planing to use?
You need a bit of hacking to run multiple MediaExpress instances on Mac.
Also - it's not very reliable tool at all for long captures (1h+).
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Rob Swart

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Re: Portable setup with Decklink 8K Pro and Thunderbolt chas

PostSat Apr 22, 2023 11:22 pm

I am recording all individual inputs using Wirecast professional.
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: Portable setup with Decklink 8K Pro and Thunderbolt chas

PostMon Apr 24, 2023 3:18 pm

It supports NDI as source, so all what I would do is buy 4 channels SDI to NDI box which is 2K$. Hook it over 10gig to Mac and done. 4x 4K up to 60p and endless possibilities of further signal distribution.
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Rob Swart

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Re: Portable setup with Decklink 8K Pro and Thunderbolt chas

PostSun Apr 30, 2023 12:23 pm

Yes, i have looked at the birddog Quad 4K60p. Correct me if i’m wrong please, but the Birddog Quad 4K60 won’t allow me to do ISO recording in Wirecast of all individual camera’s connected to it right?

Unless of course I buy 4 individual SDI to NDI convertors correct?
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: Portable setup with Decklink 8K Pro and Thunderbolt chas

PostMon May 01, 2023 6:38 pm

Birddog Quad is a 4 channels box, so each camera will be an independent signal which can be further used as you wish. There are recorders which can keep sync between these signals (eg. for multicam recording), but they are all independent same way as if you had 4 single channel NDI boxes. You can buy 4 x1 channel boxes, but it will be more expensive and more kit to carry.
Not sure about ISO recording in Wirecast (never used it), but this:
https://www.telestream.net/download-fil ... hanges.pdf
seems to suggest opposite what you said. It should work.
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Rob Swart

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Re: Portable setup with Decklink 8K Pro and Thunderbolt chas

PostTue Jun 13, 2023 4:54 pm

Some feedback for anyone interested in a setup like this.

Because I still had a Razer Core X PCIe expansion box sitting around doing nothing, I went for the Decklink 8K Pro card. If it wasn't going to work in the Razer I could always purchase a Sonnettech Echo I. Which I might do anyway later on as the Sonnettech is a bit more portable at half the width of the Razer Core X. But for now the setup is working reliably.

With all proper drivers installed the card is recognised instantly by my Macbook Pro M1 Max without any issues.

My first tests have been very stable capturing for about 3 hours in one go without a single dropped frame. This test was capturing the following signals at the same time:

- Camera with a 2160p signal @ 25fps through an HDMI to SDI 12G mini convertor
- Macbook Pro M1 Pro with a 2160p signal @ 25Hz through an HDMI to SDI 12G mini convertor
- Macbook Air with a 1080P signal @ 25fps through an HDMI to SDI 3G mini convertor

Next week I will do more testing with three and four UHD sources. For now the stability looks promising.

I will replace the HDMI to SDI 12G mini convertor for the computer signal with a Decimator 4K cross/down/up convertor/scaler to have more reliability in scaling and thus recording exotic resolutions of any laptop.
Last edited by Rob Swart on Wed Jun 14, 2023 7:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: Portable setup with Decklink 8K Pro and Thunderbolt chas

PostTue Jun 13, 2023 6:42 pm

Old BM drivers +MediaExpress were FAAAR from reliable, even for 2x HD captures.
Maybe things got better.
Interesting to see how reliable is multiple UHD.
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Rob Swart

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Re: Portable setup with Decklink 8K Pro and Thunderbolt chas

PostWed Jun 14, 2023 7:49 am

I’m not using Media Express but Wirecast for recording. Have been using Wirecast reliably for well over 7 years in a 4 input HD setup with BMD ultra studio mini recorders on a Mac Pro 2013 (trashcan) using its six Thunderbolt 2 ports.

Of course I did encounter some issues now and then over the years, which were often related to bugs in major Wirecast updates and indeed sometimes a flaky BMD driver update. A fallback to a previous version would fix that until Telestream or BMD came out with an update. Wirecast has now grown to be a very reliable and stable piece of software for a setup like this which I use to record for days on end.

I now want to upgrade this setup to 4K which will give all sorts of advantages from obviously being able to deliver in 4K to creating ‘different’ shots with zoom ins using crop settings in Wirecast.

I’ll give an update after testing this with more than two 4K inputs.
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: Portable setup with Decklink 8K Pro and Thunderbolt chas

PostWed Jun 14, 2023 8:21 am

I think most of the issue came from MediaExpress, so other more reliable solution should be better.
I know ToolsOnAir are reliable and can be used with BM cards as well, so it's not like BM card is no go (although for extreme sensitive cases I would ago with AJA).
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Rob Swart

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Re: Portable setup with Decklink 8K Pro and Thunderbolt chas

PostFri Jul 14, 2023 12:12 am

Update:

I tested the setup thoroughly with three 4K signals. Two at 25fps and one @ 50fps.

I can record for hours continuously without a single dropped frame. The cpu of my Macbook Pro M1 Max with 64GB of RAM is hovering between 25% and 30%.

So I’m very happy with the system.
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: Portable setup with Decklink 8K Pro and Thunderbolt chas

PostFri Jul 14, 2023 9:51 am

This is in reality 2x 50p which does fit easily into TB3 bandwidth.
I wonder if MediaExpress would be stable as well.
Try 3x 50p- this is close to edge (around 3.1GB/sec).
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Rob Swart

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Re: Portable setup with Decklink 8K Pro and Thunderbolt chas

PostFri Jul 14, 2023 11:13 am

Yes. Well I was very well aware of the fact that a Thunderbolt 3 connection wouldn't be able to cope with the Decklink 8K Pro card when receiving full resolution and framerate (max 4K@60fps) on all four inputs.

All I needed though was to be able to run a minimum of three inputs of 4K@25fps reliably.

An Apple Silicon Macbook Pro HDMI output can't be set to anything lower than 47.95Hz. So I have to set it at 50Hz for capturing its HDMI output. I wanted to get the Decimator 12G Up/Down converter to convert the HDMI output to 25fps. But it is not available worldwide apparently due to chip shortages. I used the BMD cross/Down converter reliably to be able to connect any laptop and always get a reliable 25fps signal at the right frame size. But unfortunately BMD doesn't make one for 12G that also does scaling.

Anyway, I'm happy it runs reliably with two times 4K@25fps with the one at 50fps.

As soon as I have some downtime in the studio, I will test to see what the limits are. I reckon as well that will be three times 4K@50fps as that should certainly come close to Thunderbolt's limits like you said.
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: Portable setup with Decklink 8K Pro and Thunderbolt chas

PostFri Jul 14, 2023 11:20 am

More important is fact that your capture is stable.
As you said- you know limits, so there won't be any big surprise for you.

I still think NDI in your case could be a "better" solution.
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Rob Swart

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Re: Portable setup with Decklink 8K Pro and Thunderbolt chas

PostWed Jul 26, 2023 11:07 pm

Tested the limits of this setup. It can reliably capture two 4K@50fps and two 4K@25fps inputs. Which basically comes down to those three 4K@50fps inputs. Which is not too shabby over one TB3 cable. In the test I captured an hour long program material in one go without any dropped frames.

An NDI setup would have been a lot more expensive compared to what I have now. Plus I read in the Wirecast manual about some limitations with ISO Recording when using NDI sources. Forgot the details but there was something that made it clear I had to go with the current hardware.

So my current setup now uses Wirecast Pro on a Macbook Pro M1 Max and reliably captures two 4K@25fps and one 4K@50fps as original sources into three separate Prores 422 files and also captures the live directed canvas while switching between more than 20 multi-layer composited shots into one 1080p X264 High Profile 150 Mbps output file. All while hovering between 20 and 30% of CPU usage.

I haven’t tested it yet but I am pretty confident that should I need it I can also stream the 1080p canvas at the same time to for example Youtube or Vimeo. And if i don’t need cropping (zooming) the sources into a 1080p canvas, i’m positive it will allow me to stream a 4K canvas as well. That’ll be a test for some other day.

I’m happy with this mobile setup.
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: Portable setup with Decklink 8K Pro and Thunderbolt chas

PostThu Jul 27, 2023 8:26 pm

If you are happy then this is good :)
3x50p UHD is still good and this will be pushing TB3 bandwidth for sure.

NDI route is basically 2.1K$ for 4 channels UHD. Other elements (capture, stream, etc.) in the chain are cheap or totally free.

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