Downconverting 4K in Premiere - Wrong Aspect Ratio

Here's what I'm seeing:

4K Timeline (3840x2160, 23.976)
Using UltraStudio HD Mini - SDI out to Flanders DM240 (2K monitor)
In Premiere Playback>Blackmagic Playback set to Scale down unsupported frames sizes.

The resultant output is not the correct aspect ratio, it's sending a 2K signal 2048 instead of 1920 so it's squeezed a little top to bottom.

No one has had this issue?

I tried to post this in the Software forum as I'm being told it's an SDK issue.

Maybe your timeline is set to 4K instead of UHD? It's not the same.

No, 3840x2160

I'm experiencing a similar problem with my UltraStudio 4K Mini (connected thru HDMI to a HDTV for monitoring). Using scale up for footage like 1280 x 720 to 1920x1080 works fine, but scale down for 3840x2160 and 4096x2160 footage doesn't output an HD signal.
I used to have a Mini Monitor and had no problems scaling up and down in Premiere.
It seems Adobe and Blackmagic are pointing to each other for this problem, but that doesn't offer a solution, right?

Yes, I've been seeing this problem for a while now and following a thread in Adobe forums, which seems to be missing now?

Both are pointing fingers at each other. Premiere says "we give the same SDK to all vendors"

This is the only way to monitor a 4K timeline to a 2K monitor in Premiere.

Last I read on the Adobe forum, they (Adobe and BM) were going to get together at the recent tech event and try to sort it out but I don't think that happened.

It's very unprofessional to be sitting with a client and have to make excuses for BM when the output is not the correct aspect ratio. And on a $5K Flanders monitor!

No one from Blackmagic has any comment on this?

Is there a moratorium on this subject?

Are people forbidden to talk about it?

We are right now talking about it, but maybe nobody has a solution.

I've talked about this at NAB with both Adobe and BlackMagic staff. Both say they have a good relationship with the other.

The Adobe folks say they provide the same SDK to everyone, and note that no AJA device has any problems. So it doesn't seem to be an Adobe problem.

The BlackMagic staffers say they comply with all the Adobe SDK specs. So it doesn't seem to be a BlackMagic problem.

And it doesn't get fixed. I don't see any urgency by anyone to do something.

Sent from my SM-S908U using Tapatalk

Sad, but true. Looking at AJA, you get what you pay for.

The long-running thread on Adobe appears to have been taken down. It got a little nasty and there was name-calling, but you can understand folk's frustrations as this 'bug' has been around for years and would appear to be relatively easy to correct. Additionally I imagine there are a lot of editors working in UHD / 4K timelines, but monitoring on perfectly acceptable HD monitors.

I am currently running a UHD project, running out to an HD monitor via an UltraStudio Monitor 3G I can see the aspect isn't right. When I load Desktop Video Setup I can see that the signal coming out is not HD but in fact 2K DCI. When I change the sequence settings to HD the aspect is correct.

Would be nice to hear from Blackmagic on this one as Adobe responded countless times in the thread on their forums.

Yes very weird the thread was removed from Adobe, I too have been watching, waiting for a fix all the while having to explain to clients that their project is not squished.

Yea, saying this is frustrating is being polite.

I've worked in both ecosystems for over a decade. Been to NAB every time too.

Both companies say ... publicly.... they have a great working relationship.


Staffers from both companies are frequently seen talking with staffers from other companies, in the booths and aisles of NAB/Vegas.

But in over a decade, I've never seen an Adobe shirt talking with a BlackMagic shirt.

You are welcome to draw whatever conclusions you wish, of course. Sigh.

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I have posted this on other forums as well and have gotten no answers.

"I'm looking to revive this thread as I have run into a problem with this set up and am unable to get any answers from Adobe or Blackmagic forums. I am unable to get a UHD signal from Premiere to display properly on the DM240. I set up a UHD 3840x2160 sequence in both Resolve and Premiere. Both are outputting via BM Ultrastudio Monitor 3G to a Flanders DM240 and both are downscaling. Resolve handles it properly and is communicating with the Ultrastudio to output a 1080p signal to the DM240. Premiere, however, is not, and the Ultrastudio is outputting 2K DCI to the DM240 which is incompatible (squished vertically). My only workaround has been to master in a 1080p sequence in Premiere (not ideal). Anyone in this group had any luck getting UHD in Premiere to output properly?"

and

"4K UHD 16x9 footage in Premiere is scaled down to 2K DCI instead of HD1080 16x9 for some reason, resulting in the wrong aspect ratio for all the footage. Scaling 4K UHD footage to fit in a HD1080 timeline causes the footage in that timeline to display properly, with the correct 16x9 aspect ratio."

So, in light of all of this, does anyone have a solution? Is there another manufacturer that makes a device to downscale Premiere UHD to 1080p for external monitoring (Flanders)?

Just ran into this issue again, it's been as-is for several years, and the problem isn't going away anytime soon. Only reason it's been a while, is because it's been a while since we had Premiere clients in-person in the suite.

Indeed, both Blackmagic and Adobe are in the right, given how they designed the interfacing between them. I therefore decided to try a different approach, and phrase it as a feature request. Either company will have to go "the extra mile" and commit to improving its part, regardless of what's happening on the other vendor's side.

I submitted this feature request to Blackmagic. If you agree, feel free to copy it and send it to them too. It can make a huge difference.

Please add this option to the Desktop Video driver's "Blackmagic Device Selection" window:
Scale to the default video standard

This dialogue appears via Adobe Premiere (and perhaps other apps), to handle the handoff to the BMD hardware. Here is a mockup of the implementation on the user-facing GUI end:

Blackmagic Adobe scale mockup3.png (56.42 KiB) Viewed 3587 times

This proposed feature will convert the signal to the format defined in the Desktop Video driver control panel > "Video Output" tab > General > Default video standard:

Default video standard.png (21.2 KiB) Viewed 3587 times

This includes performing the following 3 conversions as needed:

• Frame raster scaling (constrained to the source aspect ratio, adding letter/pillar boxing as needed)
• Progressive/interlaced conversion
• Frame rate conversion (duplicating or dropping frames/fields, creating a pulldown pattern if needed, but no motion interpolation).

Reason / benefit:

This feature will solve multiple problems users commonly face:

1. The audio/video hardware down the chain from the Blackmagic hardware, isn't always as capable as the Blackmagic hardware. For example, a monitor or audio de-embedder that can only handle HD-SDI signals, connected to an UltraStudio Mini Monitor 3G. Or an HD monitor connected to a DeckLink 4K.
   
2. The Blackmagic hardware is powerful and flexible, and supports SMPTE ST-2048 formats (DCI aspect ratios). However, many users' monitors and setups do not, or they need to see the signal in a specific target format, regardless of the video asset they happen to be playing back at the moment.
   
3. Video equipment often takes several seconds to switch between formats, even if the NLE and BMD hardware are fast. For example, when a user edits 23.98 fps footage into a 59.94 timeline, the constant format changing which results from switching back and forth, creates frequent disruptions in the editing room's viewing experience, as well as audio gaps and pops.
   A downstream Blackmagic Mini Converter sometimes creates loud pops on its analog audio outs, as it switches between SDI input formats.
   Locking the output format will prevent all that.

As I put on my engineer cap and thought it through, the current state of affairs causes multiple issues, not one:
- No video, because the signal format doesn't match what your monitor(s) can display
- No audio, because the signal format doesn't match what your D/A converters can accept
- Wrong aspect ratio, because the signal format doesn't match your display's characteristics, abilities, or configuration
- Freezes, blackouts, or pops because your equipment constantly has to switch between formats

And there are nuances to the mismatch, depending on your equipment and what you're working on on any given instant. E.g. an HD-SDI monitor and 59.94 clip/sequence. Do you want 1080/59.94i or 720/59.94p? Different editors, shows and workflows would have different needs.

I had an earlier draft, requesting these features:

Blackmagic Adobe scale mockup2-constrain.png (61.13 KiB) Viewed 3587 times

It's smarter, but also less intuitive, and actually gives the end-user less control. IMO the request to match a user-specified format is the most streamlined and simple, solving all of the above. It does require more conversion smarts in the backend, but I hope BMD would consider it worthy since all these capabilities are already in their wheelhouse (Desktop Video already has a rarely used cross-conversion feature).


To those who asked, as far as I know AJA does have this feature implemented. Premiere Preferences > Playback > Video Device > AJA > Setup > AJA Playback Settings > Video Format > Match Control Panel.
I can only hope that BMD would implement a similar (and much needed) feature too.

Hey, thanks for doing this. Will send this on and hope others do too. Could you point me toward the link for feature requests/bug reporting please?

Bug reporting is here, if not for the 20 beta.
Feature requests: viewforum.php?f=33