Blackmagic Forum

Hello,

May I ask if any of you still work in 2pop and color bars for the edit workflow? Why do people use this less?

Thank you.

Definite yes to 2pop and tail pop for me.

Thank you. That is good to know.

Totally useless nowadays.

Thank you Lucius.

Can you elaborate?

Not useless because the combination of 2pop and tail pop can tell you if your track starts in sync with picture as well as if it’s the right track and/or has been stretched so it’s no longer in sync the whole way.

In features, we traditionally use a 2-pop at the head (with a head-format countdown) and a tail-pop 2 seconds after last frame of action. This helps confirm with the sound mixers that their tracks are precisely in sync with the show.

Some people use a "film reel" setup so that the entire film is built in 20-minute segments, and that way you're not rippling changes across thousands of shots over a 2- or 3-hour movie. Of course, at some point, when the entire film is locked, then all the reels are stacked together as one continuous show for final delivery.

Anybody who wants 2-pop audio tone can download it for free at this link:

https://spaces.hightail.com/space/DeNSB8ptCL

I would recommend the 1-second 1kHz tone, and just use 1 frame of it on the 2-pop in the countdown. If you need head format countdowns, here's a link to a bunch of free ones in different formats:

https://spaces.hightail.com/space/aSyCR

For short projects, I rarely use more than a slate and 5 seconds of countdown, but it's up to the user. For final delivery, we often have no 2-pop at all and no slate, but it depends on the client and distributor.

Joe Shapiro wrote:Not useless because the combination of 2pop and tail pop can tell you if your track starts in sync with picture as well as if it’s the right track and/or has been stretched so it’s no longer in sync the whole way.

Why not using timecode to sync?

DaVinciKim wrote:Thank you Lucius.

Can you elaborate?

It's a habit inherited from cassette tapes and film reels.

If you have timecode then that’s used to sync location sound and picture. After that it’s creative time where people intentionally do things like move dialog so it’s no longer where it was relative to picture when recorded (of course you know this).

Once the offline edit is done the picture and audio are split again and sent off to different departments. When putting them back together you need more than seeing the timecode align - after all everything pretty much starts at 01:00:00:00 so timecode would always line up. And you can’t use length as a tail pop since audio post - especially in the indie world - is not exactly scrupulous in avoiding extra silence at the end.

Finally, when screening something there’s no timecode “shown” in either picture or audio. Hence the always- “visible” 2pop lets the projectionist/screener “be sure” that things are in sync and even adjust for audio pipeline delays in the system.

Joe Shapiro wrote:If you have timecode then that’s used to sync location sound and picture. After that it’s creative time where people intentionally do things like move dialog so it’s no longer where it was relative to picture when recorded (of course you know this).

Once the offline edit is done the picture and audio are split again and sent off to different departments

I agree. That's why I send to all these departments a reference export (light codec - timecode burnt to the image) so everyone work with a "common clock" so they all stay in sync.

Projectionists receive DCPs with no pop and bars.

Colour Bars & tone were for videotape playback alignment in the analog days. It was easy for things to be recorded on tape at odd timecodes so the countdown leader & 2 pop was a guarantee of accurate cueing for transmission or editing. These days it is rarely necessary but some company's delivery requirements still use it.

I think a test pattern in the head of the video will be useful with HDR.

mpetech wrote:I think a test pattern in the head of the video will be useful with HDR.

Feeding properly metadata inside the file seems much more important to me.

Lucius Snow wrote:

mpetech wrote:I think a test pattern in the head of the video will be useful with HDR.

Feeding properly metadata inside the file seems much more important to me.

I'm not discounting metadata. But a scope or visual check to see if the video is encoded or decoded properly is extremely useful. Metadata itself can be false. And there are things currently that are not part of the metadata set like video vs data levels.

Peter Cave wrote:Colour Bars & tone were for videotape playback alignment in the analog days. It was easy for things to be recorded on tape at odd timecodes so the countdown leader & 2 pop was a guarantee of accurate cueing for transmission or editing. These days it is rarely necessary but some company's delivery requirements still use it.

I still use color bars (and also a grayscale ramp) because it instantly lets us know if there's a playback problem on the client's side. If you understand PLUGE pulse and how to read scopes, it's easy to diagnose issues like that. The whole point is just to ensure that we're not screwing anything up on delivery.

In my experience, most broadcasters still require pre-programme lineup with bars and tone and a pip of some sorts, even for file delivery. Though, now instead of a single frame pip at 00:59:58:00 it's often requested to be 2 frames at 00:59:57:04 to allow for any standards processing. That change first started at Discovery, I think, but it has trickled its way down into most delivery specs that I come across these days.

Most distributors don't seem to care about it at all. On the odd occasion, if they anticipate on-selling to a broadcaster, they might request a master with lineup in their deliverables, just so they don't have to faff about adding it themselves if/when they do end up selling to a broadcaster who requires it.

Personally, I still prefer receiving final sound mixes with a good old-fashioned 2-pip at the top. Sometimes editors send timelines to sound with erroneous filler at the top of the timeline or with incorrect starting code. Having a 2-pip makes the first frame of the mix absolutely unambiguous. I agree that it's something you shouldn't really need these days, but sometimes ish happens, and it's a clear, unambiguous way of communicating where the mix starts.

Many times it depends on the distributor.

I have spec sheets that require it, and spec sheets that specify that there should be nothing between the slate and the start of the show.

Some local broadcasters specify that that the files they receive should start at program start.
One asks for 2 seconds black (but no 2 pop) before the show starts.
Some of this depends on the ingest system they are using.

Every media business has it's own set of specifications. There is no common format for delivery as every business has different requirements. Some are still using legacy methods (bars & tone etc) while others do not.

Exactly.
It's outdated and about useless, unless someone requires it.
Bars are in many cases useless as well. Files goes though so many conversions that you can't rely on them. People have a master (already broken), add new bars and are happy You rely on those bars, yet content itself looks totally wrong. I skip fact that for so long (and even now) HDR masters shave SDR bars, which is total mess. DPP spec doesn't require pop. In US there is more legacy, so maybe there it still serves some role.

What you should care is quality of your work. You should always double check your workflow and always verify it after software updates. You should always check your final masters. Good to have own list of checks and always follow it, regardless if you think all should be fine.

I think several of us pretty well explained why a 2pop is still useful.

More frequently than you’d imagine I’ve wished there were a circular test pattern at the head to verify the projector’s aspect ratio is set correctly. Just happened last month at a small festival.

Maybe I understood it wrongly.
During work (when you receive elements for the work) it may be useful, but on final masters it's not really.

Joe Shapiro wrote:projector’s aspect ratio is set correctly. Just happened last month at a small festival.

Sorry, I don't care about others' setup issues etc. I would go mad if I done this delivering so many masters. I just care and make sure my final masters are correct. This is why I spend (relatively) a lot of time verifying them, so when I have an email with "strange issue" I'm 99% sure it has nothing to do with me. Better this way then keep sending crap and then wasting 10x more time fixing it and dealing with re-deliveries. Sometimes (and not that rarely) people send masters with off-line content slates, abrupt cut at the end, etc. For me this is unacceptable at any level of delivery.

I would never try to verify my workflow relying on 3rd party masters (bars etc). I have my own elements for this which I trust and know they are fine.

Joe Shapiro wrote:More frequently than you’d imagine I’ve wished there were a circular test pattern at the head to verify the projector’s aspect ratio is set correctly. Just happened last month at a small festival.

Yes, we routinely provide a few frames of a sizing chart just to verify the projector is correct:



If I have time prior to the screening, I'll ask the projectionist to play the head leader so we can say, "yes, this is correct" vs. "oh my god, it's wrong and we have to fix it!" 99.9% of the time it's fine.

All of the posts are fantastic—thank you, everyone! I still enjoy using color bars. I've noticed that, in the PLUGE section, I don’t always see all three bars—sometimes only one shows up depending on the monitor. Still, I find it really helpful as a basic way to check if brightness levels are way off.
Speaking of which, does anyone know where I can download a reliable version of the color bars? I don't enjoy da Vinci's color bar. When I turn on Use Mac display color the pluge suddenly disappears.

*And I did use my spyder to calibrate my Mac monitor to rec 709 2.4

Looking for a shorter yardstick? The bars in Resolve are fine. Try this instead;

Set the MBP back to XDR
Open a new project
De-Select “Use Mac Displays”
Leave everything else alone.

I feel like the 1886 Mac preset looked better in Sonoma, it’s definitely crushed in Sequoia.

Good Luck

DaVinciKim wrote:All of the posts are fantastic—thank you, everyone! I still enjoy using color bars. I've noticed that, in the PLUGE section, I don’t always see all three bars—sometimes only one shows up depending on the monitor. Still, I find it really helpful as a basic way to check if brightness levels are way off.
Speaking of which, does anyone know where I can download a reliable version of the color bars? I don't enjoy da Vinci's color bar. When I turn on Use Mac display color the pluge suddenly disappears.

Then I'd say your Mac display is wrong. Whenever there's a discrepancy, check the scopes first. Sometimes, the scopes (particularly the waveform monitor) will reveal a problem before you can see it on a video display.

I also think it's very dicey relying on the computer GUI screens for anything. We just ignore them and only look at the calibrated main color display.

Thank you Marc. I agree with you 100 percent!

DaVinciKim wrote:Thank you Marc. I agree with you 100 percent!

I have learned this stuff through many painful lessons across decades. If I can prevent somebody from making the same mistakes (or going through the same grief), my life has been fulfilled.