Resolve Gamma Purgatory

Hi all,

I have scoured the net for days on end looking for a definitive answer to this question. My workflow is so ubiquitous that I can't imagine there isn't a way through this, so I'm going to list my processes here - hopefully someone can point out what the hell is going on..

1. Cinestyle 7d or mk3 h264 assets through mpeg streamclip to prores 422.

2. Prores edited in fcp7

3. Xml the prores edit to resolve.

4. Grade and output to prores.

Now: whether legally scaled on output or not, the Resolve output back in fcp just doesn't match what I'm seeing in Resolve. Gamma shifts and/or saturation changes occur in every combination available.

I've read this is a result of an error of prores gamma flags.

I've read this is a result of not using an sdi monitor.

I've read this is unsolvable.

Is it?

Are you saying the resolve viewer on your computer monitor looks different than the fcp viewer on your computer monitor? If so, yeah it looks different. People used to freak out about this in the apple color days.
You need to view both out of a decklink card on external monitor.

I'm using one Eizo DVI monitor. Are you saying that there is no way to maintain what I'm seeing in the Resolve viewer to it's output in FCP, QT Player, VLC, et al?

If that's the case, what does a decklink do? How does it solve the problem?

Edit: And people investing in the BMCC - how the hell are they meant to run post on material without a decklink?

The only way to insure consistent monitoring between apps, formats, etc is through an io device to a calibrated broadcast monitor. It has always been this way. Otherwise you are just looking at a GUI display in whatever color space the app and monitor use. Ok for web stuff, not for tv.
The decklink or kona or whatever adhere to rec 709 or whatever space is selected.
This seems to be getting better with newer apps and OS, but still not a reliable way to monitor critical color. Ie, you may have more consistency between say fcpX and resolve or AEcs6 in the latest iMac, but not sure...

[Peter Chamberlain]

Hi Lorka, Paul is correct. The Rec.709 standard is common across most products as a deliverable format via HD-SDI. It's a good reference between apps. Consider the UI monitor to be for UI.

The DeckLink accepts the RGB image from Resolve and presents it as HD-SD for the monitor. You may think that the DVI output from the graphics card is doing the same but you would be incorrectly assuming that the application is displaying the correct gamma on the UI monitor before it passes the image to the DVI out.

While Resolve does apply the correct gamma, most applications do not and so you can not use the UI monitor for cross app comparison.
Peter

Hi guys thanks for your responses,

Ok, so -

Is any FCP, Pr, or MC - Resolve roundtrip workflow entirely unpredictable and unmanageable without a decklink?

I should have mentioned - this is all for web. I'm not working for broadcast standards right now.

Hi, I'm working on a FCP project for imminent delivery to a client. I'm using FCP 7 on a Mac pro using 10.6.8 OS. Output is for HD web use.

I love Resolve and the way it grades colour.

As recommended by your manual, I recently upgraded my system to add the 285 GTX to my existing 120 in the tower. I also added a stack of ram and an Eizo calibrated monitor. There was no mention of the necessity of a decklink.

My frustration is that when I grade a project shot in cinestyle and it looks great in Resolve, the final output file has significant shifts in gamma, contrast or colour, regardless of the settings in Resolve or which software I use to view the final output file.

There is nothing on your site that discusses this and very little on the web apart from various equally frustrated voices.

What I don't understand about the decklink consideration is that, whatever my monitor happens to be, the monitoring part of the chain is static - it's not a variable, DVI or VGA or whatever. I can view a piece of prores media in VLC, FCP or Premiere and it looks the same - it's just Resolve's viewer that seems to buck the trend. Are all these other viewers 'wrong'? What am I seeing when the output goes to say, Vimeo and looks the same as from FCP, Premiere or VLC?

I would be extremely grateful if you can recommend what you consider to be the best workflow I could adopt in order to have the final output film look the same as it does when graded in Resolve.

Without any certainty of output the graphics cards I bought to work with Resolve and the time invested are all wasted.

Many thanks,

Mike

1. Cinestyle 7d or mk3 h264 assets through mpeg streamclip to prores 422.

By the way, you should not transcode your Canon rushes with Streamclip.
Even if it's a great toolbox, it does a poor job with 5D/7D material as it tends to clip your signal.
You'd better either use the free Canon plugin for FCP or (better) use 5DtoRGB (http://rarevision.com/5dtorgb/), wich is an amazing tool.
Unless you use Prores clips to edit in FCP then reconform the native H264 files in Resolve.

Cheers.

Strangley enough there was also a post on the Avid forum this last week with the same question.
Radman.

Hi Andre, you make an interesting point about transcoding. You're right that 5DtoRGB produces a better result than Streamclip. I also use Streamclip to transcode. Streamclip is not quite as good but its quick. For the current project I'm working on I shot 18 hours of raw footage.

Transcoding in Streamclip took a full day and working to a deadline there isn't the time for 5DtoRGB. I don't believe that transcoding in 5DtoRGB instead of Streamclip would make any difference to the issue being discussed here.

Right now I'm grading the project - edited in FCP 7 - in FCP's 3-way instead of Resolve. 3-way is very crude by comparison with Resolve, but at least the output is close to what I see on the canvas.

If Peter Chamberlain or one of his colleagues from Black Magic could give some advice about how to get gamma/colour shift-free results for output from Resolve to fix the problem described above that would be great!
Thanks, Mike

Hi, Message for Peter, it would be great if you could comment on my post re the gamma shift - I work with Lorka and we are experiencing the same issue. I'd be really grateful if you could suggest a way forward!
Thanks, Mike

so you guys are outputting resolve and FCP through a decklink card to a broadcast monitor and are seeing gamma shifts between the two software?

[CaptainHook]

I've seen a colour/saturation shift on Avid Media Composer (6) via a Decklink, and Resolve 9 via Decklink to the same Sony broadcast monitor, but didn't notice a gamma shift.

No, Paul, if you read the posts that Lorka and I have made you'll see that we are using GT 120 and GTX 285 graphics cards, the ones recommended by Blackmagic, and we get gamma shifts when outputting the graded footage from Resolve, regardless of the output settings. I do not have a Decklink card - in the Resolve set-up guide there is no mention of the Decklink.

I was hoping one of the Blackmagic team might have responded by now. I have to output the final 10 minute film for the client tomorrow and I'm going to have to use FCP's 3-way instead of Resolve to grade this project if I can't get a sensible answer to this problem.
Mike

ok, so you did not read my post or Peter from BMD confirmation that you cannot judge color / contrast by comparing the gui viewer windows of resolve & FCP or any other software like quicktime player on your computer monitor.
and in the resolve configuration guide there is explicit reference not only to decklink cards, but which models are approved and tested (although basically they all work at this point)

Hi Paul, so what is your workflow? How do you get your final graded output footage to look the same as your graded footage in Resolve, and what kit are you using to get there?
Best, Mike

Hi Paul, so what is your workflow? How do you get your final graded output footage to look the same as your graded footage in Resolve, and what kit are you using to get there?
Best, Mike

I am on a mac pro system set up similar to the one in the configuration guide on the resolve support page. I also have the cubix gpu expander and use sony oled pvm 2541 and panasonic bt300 50" plasma for monitoring.
tangent element panels. BMD ultrascope