Need a TBC for 3/4" digitizing

I'm trying to digitize 3/4" SP tape from a Sony VO-9850 into my Multibridge Eclipse box on a 2008 MacPro running 10.6.8. I'm getting a TON of black frames (every second or so, sometimes several per second). Can anyone recommend an affordable time base corrector to put between the deck and capture box, assuming that's the issue? FWIW, the deck has a TBC option on the "mode select" switch on the front, but no noticeable difference when its switched to TBC mode. Maybe its an optional card I don't have--not sure.

Also should I look for cables to use the "dub" connectors on the back of the deck instead of the composite bnc? Will it make a quality difference? Is u-matic recorded as component or composite on the tape?

Thanks!

I have a 9850P in my armoury of VCRs. In fact it's been used for a bulk transfer right now. The U-Matic SP system is composite video, not component, as is clear by the connections on the rear. However, the "dub" connector (which has been present on U-Matic since the earliest machines in the 1970s), is of use only when directly connecting one machine to another or when using a Sony TBC inline. It does carry the components of video signals and I used to find the video output slightly less noisy but again for you there's no benefit whatever.

In answer to your questions, the "TBC" switch is only of use for timing up the pre-roll of the machine when being cued for editing with an editing controller. It locks the VTR to the reference sync in order to achieve a clean edit and isn't something that's relevant to basic playout operation. The machine doesn't have a built-in TBC, either.

As for TBCs, I have mix of For.A units and a G2 MSTC (multi-standard timebase corrector). The latter is my workhorse which is used to stabilise VCR playback prior to feeding a Teranex 2D for onward processing (I'm currently up-scaling and up-rezzing SD 4:3 U-Matic SP to 1920x1080p with excellent results). Another decent brand is Hotronics. If you can find a Snell & Wilcox TBC (much favoured by the BBC during is SD years) on eBay or wherever then grab it.

The trouble with TBCs is that they'll have been used constantly and because of their age they're not always that reliable. I have two For.A units that worked for only a week or two before developing problems! It's a hit & miss game, unfortunately.

Edit: There are some current model TBCs available, such as units from TV-One, but these aren't generally robust enough to cope with any substantial breaks in black burst & sync coming off-tape. You'll find that the capture will be terminated in Media Express, simply because the total dropout of sync leads ME to believe that the sequence has ended. If you were to buy something like the TV-One unit, I'd recommend the one with a genlock input capability. You can then feed this with a stable output from a SPG (Sync Pulse Generator) to which the TBC can lock. If there's a loss of off-tape sync the TBC will remain locked to the SPG output and should guarantee you a stable output for capture. However, even that isn't assured. If you're only capturing professionally-shot sequences or edited masters you should be OK, but for any "messy" recordings you might have a problem.

Usually, older ForA, Hottronics or G2 devices are a better bet.

Hope that helps! I've learned by bitter experience - having been using U-Matic since the late 1970s.

Thank you so much for your detailed reply. It's amazingly helpful. I also have a BetacamSP UVW-1800 deck. Do you know if there a way to use it for its TBC without recording to tape (it's not accepting large tapes at the moment)? A friend of mine suggested putting it in pass through EE mode. I'll have to figure out how to do that, but if you happen to know it won't work, I won't waste time on it. Thanks again!

Pass-through mode means just that - in and straight out again. Give it an input via composite or component and then take the equivalent output and feed that to the Shuttle. I'd pass the audio through as well in case you lose a frame or three due to video lag as it is processed. I'm not sure whether will work, though, as the TBC is designed to read the off-tape signals within the machine but hey, you never know!

Thanks. Running the u-matic through the UVW-1800 seems to have solved my problem. I'm also now running black burst to both decks and the Multibridge eclipse. No more black frames!

That's good news - and something I've never tried before!

Another cheap TBC solution is if you have a Matrox Digisuite system lying around. When these cards are in E-E they will act as a TBC (with or without reference) and output continuous sync. If you don't have access to one, the cards can be had for $100 or so on eBay and plug in to a PCI slot in a PC running NT4, w2k or winXP, drivers still available from Matrox. SD only, of course, but you're digitising U-Matic. They will output composite or component (and some do SDI) straight in to your capture device. I still use my card when digitising Video8 or VHS.

For 3/4" digitizing, I use a SNELL & WILCOX CVR450 with IQ-BAAD-1D Modular card installed (for audio synchro with video).
This TBC does a really good job !!

This TBC has 2 composite input, 1 Y/C input, 1 optional Component input, 2 SDI Inputs. Output possible in composite & SDI.

BTW, I'm interested in getting more info about the DUB connectors available on some U-Matic. I know that the picture quality/resolution won't be better. But, concerning luma & chroma, is it possible to obtain a better picture with dub connectors, in particular with red colors ?

BTW, I'm interested in getting more info about the DUB connectors available on some U-Matic. I know that the picture quality/resolution won't be better. But, concerning luma & chroma, is it possible to obtain a better picture with dub connectors, in particular with red colors ?

Not with a decent TBC. I used to connect these between machines in an 2-machine or 3-machine edit configuration back in the early 80s, and they did offer a slight improvement in moire, etc., but I reckon that a hi-spec TBC gives better results now. I also have an ex-BBC TV Sony BVT-500P which has Dub in and out connectors but I don't use it any longer. It makes far too much noise!!

Hi Doug,

did you input a reference video signal to the UVW-1800 REF. VIDEO INPUT CONNECTOR in order to enable the built-in TBC to operate correctly?

Thanks

I assume he fixed his problem as the last post before yours was around 17 months ago

Adam, I would need to know it because I'm planning to get the same deck and use it as TBC passthrough.

Also should I look for cables to use the "dub" connectors on the back of the deck instead of the composite bnc? Will it make a quality difference? Is u-matic recorded as component or composite on the tape?

I know I'm picking up a very old post, but for the sake of others the recording format on U-Matic takes one of three forms. Basically, there's the original "low band" U-Matic, which is a composite recording system, then BVU (also referred to as "high band") which has better colour processing and moire pattern filtering, and finally there's BVU-SP (also known as U-MaticSP) which is a YC Component system and the best of the bunch. You need to be careful when choosing a VTR to play your 3/4" tapes because lowband VTRs (such as the "5800" series) won't play high band tapes, and not all BVU-SP machines will play lowband tapes. I have several U-Matic VTRs because I do a lot of archiving work from them.

As for the Dub connectors, these are a better way of connecting to other U-Matics and Sony TBCs because they keep Luminance and Chrominance signals separate. I've put lots of U-Matic editing systems together (since the late 1970s) using Dub connectors and I always preferred this method, especially when Sony "BVT" series TBCs are employed in the system. I was given a BVT-500 series TBC by the BBC when they had a clearout a few years ago but sadly it dies. It was a great TBC though - build like a tank and would happily correct literally any old junk signal given to it! They're like gold dust now, though I have subsequently obtained a couple of Snell & Wilcox TBCs from UK broadcasters and they're superb (they should be, both Snell and Willcox were ex-BBC research engineers!).

I hope that's helpful background for would-be 3/4" Umatic users. Remember, when you're using these, a TBC is absolutely vital. It's such a shame that Blackmagic doesn't produce something that will do the job today.

I agree with Colin, but in fairness to BMD this is a problem with almost all the capture cards out there. None of them can handle the glitches from traditional analog composite video (Betamax, VHS, 3/4", etc.), particularly in machines without TBCs. Many (but not all) Betacam decks did have built-in TBCs, but a handful did not.

A better idea might be to hunt down a BVU-850 or a newer BVU-950, both of which had built-in TBCs and are very reliable machines. The alternative would be to find a company that had machines like this and just pay them to digitize all the material for you. You do need somebody to adjust the tracking and levels, keep the heads clean, check the audio, and all that other stuff.

Dealing with analog video is a nightmare in 2016, particularly now that we're to the point where all these tapes and machines are really falling apart.

A better idea might be to hunt down a BVU-850 or a newer BVU-950, both of which had built-in TBCs and are very reliable machines.

Not all of them did. I have an ex-BBC Television BVU-950P and it didn't come with a TBC card (maybe somebody nicked it before I got it!). I remember the card being an optional purchase back in the day.

The alternative would be to find a company that had machines like this and just pay them to digitize all the material for you. You do need somebody to adjust the tracking and levels, keep the heads clean, check the audio, and all that other stuff.

Like my company!!! (I am in PAL-land, though)

Dealing with analog video is a nightmare in 2016, particularly now that we're to the point where all these tapes and machines are really falling apart.

That's the biggest problem now. I've stopped buying machines on eBay and the like because they invariably require a lot of work with heads that are shot or dry connections on boards etc. Spare parts are becoming rarer - as is the guy with the technical skills to repair the machines. A nightmare indeed!

Hello Colin,

Recently I got a BB generator and I would like to know how to properly use it for my needs.

I would like to draw your attention to the following workflows and wondering which one you would suggest or what else...

BB1.jpg (24.34 KiB) Viewed 8192 times

BB2.jpg (24.88 KiB) Viewed 8192 times

Here's my system specs:

BB GEN.: SIGMA ELECTRONICS BSG-26P 6 OUTPUTS
U-MATIC VTR: SONY VO-9800P
TBC/FS: SNELL&WILCOX KUDOS TBS100
CAPT. CARD: AJA KONA LHE (NO BOX)

Thank you in advance

In a good old-fashioned analogue TV studio or post-production facility it was common to have a centralised BBS (Black Burst & Sync) generator that feeds everything via a VDA (Video Distribution Amplifier) in order that all pieces of equipment are identically referenced. In my own set up, this is how I do it as well, with BBS being generated by a Kramer SG-6005 Multistandard BBS generator. This output is then fed to a "one-input, many output" VDA which is sent to other devices. (Even in larger broadcast organisations there would be a single sync pulse generator producing what was known as "station sync" which was then sent out to everything via VDAs.)

Your second method is probably the best one for your setup, by giving a single BBS output to the TBC only, and then loop a reference output to the VTR and then also feed a BBS output to the AJA as you suggest.

Then pass the Comp Video output from the VTR back to the TBC and onwards to the AJA capture unit. On the VTR, switch "Mode Select" to "TBC"; what will now happen is that it receives what's known as "AMS" (Advanced Mixed Sync") which the VTR uses to lock to. The TBC then compares its AMS output to the received Comp Video input and uses this to make calculations on the timebase correction process. It's not essential to supply AMS, but in my early days the system techs always used to build the systems this way.

For your information, I think your inclusion of a Snell & Wilcox Kudos TBC is a very good investment. The BBC always had S&W TBCs (note that Roderick Snell was a BBC research engineer before he left to form his own company - which then got lots of lucrative contracts with its old employer!!). I have several TBCs but by far the best is my Kudos TBC-11 unit, which ironically I obtained from BBC-TV! There's no input it can't stabilise.

To be honest, both your methods would work OK, but I personally would go for the second. Have fun.

Thank you very much for your detailed explanation. By the way, since I have no a VDA unit I'll feed the devices directly with BB following the second method as you suggested. The Sony VO-9800P deck lacks of a REF. IN connector (as in the case with Betacam decks), but it only has a SYNC. IN connector. Do you think it should work anyway?

I have been experimenting with few PAL TBCs (some in pass thru) to digitise VHS and Video8. I have tried the DMR-ES10, DMR-ES15, DMR-EH65, JVC M10s, Matrox MOX2 mini, RD-XS32, Intensity4k Pro, Sony TRV-460e, and Brighteye BE75. From a horizontal jitter and stability perspective , the E10S in pass thru mode is the best I have tested (with NR switched off), however I suspect there is some colour shift. Have any of you had experimented with these TBC's and if so, how do they compare to the older broadcast TBCs that have been mentioned earlier in the thread?

I setup a second workstation with Blackmagic Intensity Pro 4k and Panasonic DMR-EH585 as TBC-like passthrough and I got amazing results!!!

The Sony VO-9800P deck lacks of a REF. IN connector (as in the case with Betacam decks), but it only has a SYNC. IN connector. Do you think it should work anyway?

Yes, they're the same thing effectively. A "reference" signal needs to be an absolutely constant Black Burst and Sync in order that the device taking it will lock to it. The input marked "sync" is the same thing in that the required stable sync pulse provides the reference pulse to which the device can lock.

Hey @blackmagicdesign, why don't you make a TBC in a miniconverter-style box? That would be awesome.

There's a company in England who has made a DUB to Y/C converter. Looks useful:

https://keystrobe.co.uk/product/dub-opt ... atic-vcrs/

regards,
Andreas