ProRes RAW gains support

Do you have questions about Desktop Video, Converters, Routers and Monitoring?
  • Author
  • Message
Offline

Andrew Kolakowski

  • Posts: 6574
  • Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:20 am
  • Location: Poland

ProRes RAW gains support

PostSun Apr 07, 2019 10:12 am

https://news.creativecow.net/story/896572

In the same time ProRes RAW comes to Scratch, Baselight, MTI Cortex.
Time for BRAW as well.
Offline

SkierEvans

  • Posts: 90
  • Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2018 9:59 pm
  • Real Name: Ron Evans

Re: ProRes RAW gains support

PostSun Apr 07, 2019 1:56 pm

Will be supported by EDIUS 9.4 in May too.
Threadripper 1920, Gigabyte X399 DESIGNARE EX, 32G RAM, MSI 1080Ti 11G, IP4K, WIN10 Pro 1903
Resolve Studio 16, EDIUS 9.5, Vegas 17
Offline

Andrew Kolakowski

  • Posts: 6574
  • Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:20 am
  • Location: Poland

Re: ProRes RAW gains support

PostSun Apr 07, 2019 9:49 pm

Yep, we need the same with BRAW.
Offline

ricardo marty

  • Posts: 772
  • Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2017 4:03 am

Re: ProRes RAW gains support

PostSun Apr 07, 2019 10:06 pm

Apple must have given it away.

Ricardo Marty
Resolve 16, Abelton, Focusrite,
Inspiron 5675 1800x 8/16 core, Radeon RX580/8,16 GB ram, 512 sd, 500 Samsung Pro ssd.
Lenovo Y520, Quad 1777hq,NV1059/6,16gb ram,512 nvme sd, 1tb Samsung Evo pr
Sony FS700R, Bmp4k, Sony A6600.
Offline

Andrew Kolakowski

  • Posts: 6574
  • Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:20 am
  • Location: Poland

Re: ProRes RAW gains support

PostSun Apr 07, 2019 10:16 pm

They have to give away decoder SDK. They have no choice. No one will be paying licensing fees for decoding part. If there won't be decoding available outside FCPX then format will simply die.
They will most likely charge fees for encoder part in case someone will be wanting to add it in camera or some recorder.
Offline

Andrew Kolakowski

  • Posts: 6574
  • Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:20 am
  • Location: Poland

Re: ProRes RAW gains support

PostMon Apr 08, 2019 10:38 am

Some tweet suggests that Edius may be coming with ProRes exporter as well (not just ProRes RAW importer), so if this is the case we really want ProRes in Resolve.
I'm not so sure if it's true though.
update: it's true.
Last edited by Andrew Kolakowski on Mon Apr 08, 2019 8:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Offline

Jerry Hatfield

  • Posts: 40
  • Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2012 3:50 pm

Re: ProRes RAW gains support

PostMon Apr 08, 2019 1:23 pm

Yes, it is true. Prores export and Prores Raw will be in the Edius 9.4 release. It should be showing at NAB right now.

https://www.provideocoalition.com/prore ... -nab-2019/
Offline
User avatar

Xtreemtec

  • Posts: 4486
  • Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2013 11:48 am
  • Location: The Netherlands

Re: ProRes RAW gains support

PostMon Apr 08, 2019 3:45 pm

Well Atomos says something about Prores raw vs Braw.. But i think it is more a kick in the nuts towards BMD.. :cry:
https://www.cinema5d.com/prores-raw-vs- ... omy-young/

Daniel Wittenaar .:: Xtreemtec Media Productions ::. -= www.xtreemtec.nl =-
4K OBV Trailer, ATEM TVS HD, 4M/E Broadcast Studio 4K, Constelation 8K, Hyperdeck Studio 12G, Ursa Broadcast 4K, 4K fiber converters with Sony Control
Offline

Andrew Kolakowski

  • Posts: 6574
  • Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:20 am
  • Location: Poland

Re: ProRes RAW gains support

PostMon Apr 08, 2019 8:42 pm

Jerry Hatfield wrote:Yes, it is true. Prores export and Prores Raw will be in the Edius 9.4 release. It should be showing at NAB right now.

https://www.provideocoalition.com/prore ... -nab-2019/


Yes, found some confirmation on Edius forum. This is crazy disappointing for Resolve v16 then (BM works very close with Apple).
With new smart rendering in Resolve 16 lack of ProRes is one of the main limitation of the exporter now.
Offline

Andrew Kolakowski

  • Posts: 6574
  • Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:20 am
  • Location: Poland

Re: ProRes RAW gains support

PostMon Apr 08, 2019 8:53 pm

Xtreemtec wrote:Well Atomos says something about Prores raw vs Braw.. But i think it is more a kick in the nuts towards BMD.. :cry:
https://www.cinema5d.com/prores-raw-vs- ... omy-young/



This is very interesting regarding RED patent portfolio. As Atomos guy said- it's very strong portfolio and he even said that compression of RAW doesn't necessarily need to happen in camera itself ( I always thought this is the case). Atomos licensed it from RED, so they are clean with ProRes RAW. No idea who gave RED back in the past such a strong patent. It will be a nightmare for anyone who will be trying to do compressed RAW.
Offline

Hendrik Proosa

  • Posts: 968
  • Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 6:53 am
  • Location: Estonia

Re: ProRes RAW gains support

PostTue Apr 09, 2019 1:38 pm

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:As Atomos guy said- it's very strong portfolio and he even said that compression of RAW doesn't necessarily need to happen in camera itself ( I always thought this is the case).

I think the most obvious way is to just push the raw digitized sensor data out of camera as if it was already RGB or Y'CbCr data and on the receiving end interpret it as needed. How the packing of two green photosites into single image plane is solved is the main question probably because Bayer data has four components but video signal has three.
I do stuff.
Offline

Andrew Kolakowski

  • Posts: 6574
  • Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:20 am
  • Location: Poland

Re: ProRes RAW gains support

PostTue Apr 09, 2019 1:54 pm

You can most likely get around it, but you will need lawyers for this as well as engineers :)
Offline

Andrew Kolakowski

  • Posts: 6574
  • Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:20 am
  • Location: Poland

Re: ProRes RAW gains support

PostTue Apr 09, 2019 8:38 pm

Not an NLE, but AJA also adds ability to capture to ProRes on PC:

https://www.aja.com/news/top-stories/825
Offline

Carlos Garcia-Diaz

  • Posts: 68
  • Joined: Mon Feb 01, 2016 9:40 pm

Re: ProRes RAW gains support

PostFri Jul 19, 2019 7:48 pm

I don't use FCP X as my main editor since I don't like the UI. Waiting/hoping for Premiere & Resolve to add support. I don't use BM cameras so BRAW is not an option at this point. Any chance that Resolve will support it?
Offline

Frank Engel

  • Posts: 468
  • Joined: Thu May 17, 2018 11:09 pm
  • Real Name: Frank Engel

Re: ProRes RAW gains support

PostWed Jul 24, 2019 12:51 pm

ProRes RAW is patent-encumbered, by patents from a 3rd party (RED) - Atomos is paying royalties to RED to be able to use Apple's codec:

https://forums.creativecow.net/docs/for ... 63&pview=t


This is a rather sad situation and personally I would want as little to do with ProRes RAW as possible right now. BMD had to drop cDNG from their cameras because of that same patent, so I wouldn't be surprised if they feel the same way, in which case you might be waiting a long time.
Offline

MishaEngel

  • Posts: 1327
  • Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2018 12:18 am
  • Real Name: Misha Engel

Re: ProRes RAW gains support

PostWed Jul 24, 2019 1:11 pm

It's a US patent and not valid in the rest of the world. Kinefinity still gives them the finger and Sony can also use compressed RAW (they had enough patents to put RED out of business).
BRAW is not RAW so it doesn't violate RED's US patents.
Offline

Hendrik Proosa

  • Posts: 968
  • Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 6:53 am
  • Location: Estonia

Re: ProRes RAW gains support

PostWed Jul 24, 2019 1:17 pm

I wonder why the combination of raw signal output and raw capture in external device is not a thing. Raw data could be put into any digital signal, packing could be standardized and recording devices could have a setting to tell that incoming signal is raw data that should be handled such and such. External raw recorder shouldn't violate RED's in-camera compressed raw patents.
I do stuff.
Offline

Andrew Kolakowski

  • Posts: 6574
  • Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:20 am
  • Location: Poland

Re: ProRes RAW gains support

PostWed Jul 24, 2019 2:59 pm

Looks like RED patented whole idea about compressing RAW (in camera or outside). Very strong patent, which causes a lot of problems for everyone who is not happy to pay them fee.
Best way to avoid it is to do something with RAW signal where you can't really call it RAW anymore, but keep it 100% recoverable later in the post if needed.
Offline

MishaEngel

  • Posts: 1327
  • Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2018 12:18 am
  • Real Name: Misha Engel

Re: ProRes RAW gains support

PostWed Jul 24, 2019 3:22 pm

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:Looks like RED patented whole idea about compressing RAW (in camera or outside). Very strong patent, which causes a lot of problems for everyone who is not happy to pay them fee.
Best way to avoid it is to do something with RAW signal where you can't really call it RAW anymore, but keep it 100% recoverable later in the post if needed.


The patents are only valid in the US, the rest of the world declined these patents.
Since Hollywood is still the main producer of big movies a lot of camera/recorder manufacturers paid a license fee, found an other solution(like BMD with BRAW) or had more patents(Sony).
With storage getting cheaper by the day (Samsung PM883 7.68 TB $ 1300 SATA-drive vs. Red Mini-Mag 0.96 TB $ 2.350 mSATA-drive vs. Micron 9300 15.36 TB $ 2.600 U.2 NVMe drive) who needs in camera data compression, ARRI never did and they are still the benchmark.

You can always compress the RAW data with RAW4PRO to Cineform RAW (4:1 compression has the same quality as RED 5:1 compression) when you want to save storage space.
Offline

Andrew Kolakowski

  • Posts: 6574
  • Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:20 am
  • Location: Poland

Re: ProRes RAW gains support

PostWed Jul 24, 2019 3:42 pm

Compressing RAW is the next big step for cheaper cameras as it makes perfect sense. There is absolutely 0 need to debayer in camera (just to get so much more data) and then compress it. Compressing RAW is the most efficient way to store best quality sensor data at smallest possible size. It can work well not only for small compression like we see now (3:1-12:1), but also for much higher compression using codecs like h265 (or specially designed for RAW codec). It's still very uncharted territory- a lot can be done, but RED patents seems to be big problem (even if only apply to USA).
Storage size/speed is still one of the main problems for smaller cameras. I want to save space, but during recording stage, not later (later is easy).

ARRI does have problems due to size and bandwidth needs for their RAW- it's obvious (this is one of the reasons why many people shoot ProRes). There is already ARRI RAW compressed format made by Codex to reduce those crazy RAW uncompressed numbers. I'm not interested in high-end recording, but more in middle/lower end (so you can forget about drives for 3K$), where compressing RAW makes even more sense than for high-end.

This is why ProRes RAW (thanks to be clean of "RED problem") can be a winner. It all depends how much RED wants you to pay when licensing ProRes RAW (be greedy and cause format to die or let it spread). I don't think RED is in great financial situation currently- are they (after blowing so much money on their "useless" phone)?

RAW4PRO is gone and outdated. We would need new tool for RAW to CF RAW compression. There is very basic support now in Vdub2 (I've asked developer to add it).
Offline

Hendrik Proosa

  • Posts: 968
  • Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 6:53 am
  • Location: Estonia

Re: ProRes RAW gains support

PostThu Jul 25, 2019 10:51 am

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:Best way to avoid it is to do something with RAW signal where you can't really call it RAW anymore, but keep it 100% recoverable later in the post if needed.

Call it RGGB and done :D Double the green, double the action!
I do stuff.
Offline

Andrew Kolakowski

  • Posts: 6574
  • Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:20 am
  • Location: Poland

Re: ProRes RAW gains support

PostThu Jul 25, 2019 2:46 pm

I doubt this would be enough :)
Offline

Carlos Garcia-Diaz

  • Posts: 68
  • Joined: Mon Feb 01, 2016 9:40 pm

Re: ProRes RAW gains support

PostThu Sep 12, 2019 1:54 am

Frank Engel wrote:ProRes RAW is patent-encumbered, by patents from a 3rd party (RED) - Atomos is paying royalties to RED


Well, as everyone knows bye now, Apple is filed to have Red's patents invalidated. There really is nothing new to Red's patent (they just took existing tech and combined them imo).

So, is there any realistic chance that Resolve will support ProRes Raw at some point? I don't want to use FCP X just to grade it since I have a strong dislike of FCP X for anything other then 4K multicam editing.
Offline

Andrew Kolakowski

  • Posts: 6574
  • Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:20 am
  • Location: Poland

Re: ProRes RAW gains support

PostThu Sep 12, 2019 3:50 pm

Resolve support for ProRes RAW is rather not tight to the RED patent story. It's more a competition in terms of RAW format itself.
Offline

Andrew Kolakowski

  • Posts: 6574
  • Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:20 am
  • Location: Poland

Re: ProRes RAW gains support

PostFri Sep 13, 2019 12:50 pm

In the meantime new BRAW 1.5 adds Premiere and AVID plugins on Win and Mac.
Edius 9.5 now supports BRAW (but not latest 6K).
Offline

Carlos Garcia-Diaz

  • Posts: 68
  • Joined: Mon Feb 01, 2016 9:40 pm

Re: ProRes RAW gains support

PostMon Sep 16, 2019 8:42 pm

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:In the meantime new BRAW 1.5 adds Premiere and AVID plugins on Win and Mac.
Edius 9.5 now supports BRAW (but not latest 6K).


https://www.cinema5d.com/prores-raw-sup ... announced/

Native Premiere support has just been announced for ProRes Raw.
Offline

Andrew Kolakowski

  • Posts: 6574
  • Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:20 am
  • Location: Poland

Re: ProRes RAW gains support

PostMon Sep 16, 2019 9:33 pm

Now we know why BM had to make free BRAW plugin asap :D
Offline

Noemis

  • Posts: 5
  • Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:38 am
  • Real Name: Simeon in 't Veld

Re: ProRes RAW gains support

PostWed Sep 18, 2019 3:20 pm

Interesting to see AVID and Premiere Pro gaining support for both BRAW and ProRes RAW. Hoping to see davinci support it soon enough too. Does anyone know if this will happen anytime soon (IBC2019?)
Offline

ricardo marty

  • Posts: 772
  • Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2017 4:03 am

Re: ProRes RAW gains support

PostWed Sep 18, 2019 7:14 pm

Carlos Garcia-Diaz wrote:
Andrew Kolakowski wrote:In the meantime new BRAW 1.5 adds Premiere and AVID plugins on Win and Mac.
Edius 9.5 now supports BRAW (but not latest 6K).


https://www.cinema5d.com/prores-raw-sup ... announced/

Native Premiere support has just been announced for ProRes Raw.



Lightwors also added braw.

Ricardo Marty
Resolve 16, Abelton, Focusrite,
Inspiron 5675 1800x 8/16 core, Radeon RX580/8,16 GB ram, 512 sd, 500 Samsung Pro ssd.
Lenovo Y520, Quad 1777hq,NV1059/6,16gb ram,512 nvme sd, 1tb Samsung Evo pr
Sony FS700R, Bmp4k, Sony A6600.
Offline

Carlos Garcia-Diaz

  • Posts: 68
  • Joined: Mon Feb 01, 2016 9:40 pm

Re: ProRes RAW gains support

PostSat Oct 19, 2019 2:57 pm

Noemis wrote:Interesting to see AVID and Premiere Pro gaining support for both BRAW and ProRes RAW. ...Does anyone know if this will happen anytime soon (IBC2019?)


Anyone?
Offline

ricardo marty

  • Posts: 772
  • Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2017 4:03 am

Re: ProRes RAW gains support

PostSat Oct 19, 2019 3:58 pm

Carlos Garcia-Diaz wrote:
Noemis wrote:Interesting to see AVID and Premiere Pro gaining support for both BRAW and ProRes RAW. ...Does anyone know if this will happen anytime soon (IBC2019?)


Anyone?


BMD created a braw plugin for avid and premier and now Braw is will be available for cinema cameras that output SDI-raw. For now the canon c500 and the Panasonic ev-1. Bmd stated that others will follow.

Ricardo Marty
Resolve 16, Abelton, Focusrite,
Inspiron 5675 1800x 8/16 core, Radeon RX580/8,16 GB ram, 512 sd, 500 Samsung Pro ssd.
Lenovo Y520, Quad 1777hq,NV1059/6,16gb ram,512 nvme sd, 1tb Samsung Evo pr
Sony FS700R, Bmp4k, Sony A6600.
Offline

Carlos Garcia-Diaz

  • Posts: 68
  • Joined: Mon Feb 01, 2016 9:40 pm

Re: ProRes RAW gains support

PostSat Oct 19, 2019 4:48 pm

ricardo marty wrote:
Carlos Garcia-Diaz wrote:
Noemis wrote:BMD created a braw plugin for avid and premier and now Braw is will be available for cinema cameras


Sorry, but I wasn't asking about BRAW support Marty (this thread is about ProRes Raw). The question is whether/when Resolve will support ProRes Raw.

Thanks
Offline

ricardo marty

  • Posts: 772
  • Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2017 4:03 am

Re: ProRes RAW gains support

PostSat Oct 19, 2019 7:52 pm

My opinion is that dr will support Pres-raw when apple supports braw, Maybe because bmd will have to pay a license fee while braw is free. B raw is becoming available to more cameras. This might make it more compelling for apple to include it which in turn will make BMD use prores-raw

Ricardo Marty
Resolve 16, Abelton, Focusrite,
Inspiron 5675 1800x 8/16 core, Radeon RX580/8,16 GB ram, 512 sd, 500 Samsung Pro ssd.
Lenovo Y520, Quad 1777hq,NV1059/6,16gb ram,512 nvme sd, 1tb Samsung Evo pr
Sony FS700R, Bmp4k, Sony A6600.
Offline

jbandes

  • Posts: 23
  • Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2019 1:18 pm
  • Real Name: Jaems Bandes

Re: ProRes RAW gains support

PostTue Jan 14, 2020 10:19 pm

I really love Davinchi Resolve 16. I have a Nikon Z6 and Atomos recorder and they both now support ProRes Raw but now us Windows users need an NLE that supports Prores Raw. I bought a copy of Edius which does support it but I dont really like the user interface and refer DR. Now Adobe has announced support so I really do hope that my beloved DR will also support ProRes Raw in the near future.
Offline

Andrew Kolakowski

  • Posts: 6574
  • Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:20 am
  • Location: Poland

Re: ProRes RAW gains support

PostTue Jan 14, 2020 10:51 pm

ProRes RAW is coming to major NLE.
More than ProRes Raw I want ProRes export on PC- it last major missing bit for Resolve compared to other NLEs.
Just played with ProRes export in Edius and it's well implemented (proper MOV headers including ones for HLG and PQ).
Offline

Glenn Sakatch

  • Posts: 363
  • Joined: Sat Apr 13, 2013 5:36 pm

Re: ProRes RAW gains support

PostSun Jan 26, 2020 5:50 pm

Just played with ProRes export in Edius and it's well implemented (proper MOV headers including ones for HLG and PQ).


The website seems to indicate prores support is import only in 9.5.

I see something for 444 export, not sure if that is workgroup only version...are you saying you are doing 422 exports out of a windows box.

(it's a tough website to read..all white with very thin black font, so i might be missing something)
Offline

Andrew Kolakowski

  • Posts: 6574
  • Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:20 am
  • Location: Poland

Re: ProRes RAW gains support

PostSun Jan 26, 2020 8:36 pm

ProRes export was there since 9.4 version and in 9.5 it includes ProRes444 with alpha.
Not sure if you were on this website:
https://www.edius.net
Offline

Glenn Sakatch

  • Posts: 363
  • Joined: Sat Apr 13, 2013 5:36 pm

Re: ProRes RAW gains support

PostTue Jan 28, 2020 5:54 pm

No, i was on a different reseller page...very similar however.

The main page, as many do, dance around the words so well, that I have become very suspicious, and leaned not to assume anything with any software, unless i see it spelled out.

They say lots of improved performance for ProRes and DNX, but to me that is just import and playback, which every system can do.

I still couldn't see the actual words ProRes Export until i went to the 9.4 release page...but i did see it there.

In this day and age, i would actually think they would make a bigger deal of it on their main page.
Avids announcement in August that they were adding windows export seems to have been long forgotten...and they have said nothing further since. We've had about 6 product updates since then...with no ProRes windows export news.
Starting to doubt it will ever come.

Thanks
Glenn
Offline

Andrew Kolakowski

  • Posts: 6574
  • Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:20 am
  • Location: Poland

Re: ProRes RAW gains support

PostTue Jan 28, 2020 11:45 pm

This is what happens when good products and companies are sold to bigger and bigger corporations which have one and only interest- make money on it (quite often those corpos have about nothing to do with actual products). Very sad world of $.
"Edius" been sold in recent years few times and about to be sold again (Belden is selling GV brand).
Actual team which was/is behind Edius is very good and under good ownership they could do amazing things. I feel this is about to be lost forever.

Return to Post Production

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Joachim.Claus and 19 guests