Extend min-max limits in Temp/Tint Primaries Sliders

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Dmitry Shijan

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Extend min-max limits in Temp/Tint Primaries Sliders

PostSat May 23, 2020 2:13 pm

There is nothing special about RAW and as you may know it is very easy to adjust Exposure in ProRes Log files by adjusting Gain in linear gamma (ProRes source should be captured native camera ISO)
Seems it is also possible to adjust White Balance in Resolve in same way if source video was shoot with native WB setting (usually around 5500K)
There is a Temp/Tint controls for ProRes, but in gamma corrected setup it operates in very different from RAW WB and can't provide same quality with large WB adjustments.
After some tests i found that it is possible to match WB RAW by adjusting WB Temp/Tint tool in Primaries operated in XYZ color space and Linear gamma.

Temp/Tint tool in Primaries sliders are limited by temperature 4000 tilt 100, so in huge ACES or XYZ color space i need to add 2-3 node copies of same tool to adjust WB enough.

:arrow: It would be great to extend to infinity min-max value limits in Temp/Tint tool in Primaries sliders

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Sounds insane, but WB adjusted in larger color spaces like ACES or XYZ, final result looks even better than WB adjusted in RAW.
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Last edited by Dmitry Shijan on Sun May 24, 2020 1:47 pm, edited 7 times in total.
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dariobigi

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Re: Better WB tool for ProRes to match WB in RAW

PostSat May 23, 2020 3:32 pm

The offset wheel or offset RGB knobs aren’t working for you in this capacity?


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Re: Better WB tool for ProRes to match WB in RAW

PostSat May 23, 2020 3:53 pm

I didn't test offset RGB as WB adjustment, but it is not the best option because offset use RGB sliders instead of normal Temp/Tint sliders. Also offset RGB sliders are very non linear and can't provide same precision as normal Temp/Tint sliders.
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Dmitry Shijan

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Re: Better WB tool for ProRes to match WB in RAW

PostSat May 23, 2020 3:58 pm

By the way, there is a Chromatic Adaptation OFX tool in resolve that seems like acts very close to WB adjustment in RAW, but it provides very limited amount of WB adjustment range. Not sure if it was designed to 100% replace WB tool.
Last edited by Dmitry Shijan on Sat May 23, 2020 4:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Hendrik Proosa

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Re: Better WB tool for ProRes to match WB in RAW

PostSat May 23, 2020 3:59 pm

WB is weighted gain on linear values, what doesn't work for you exactly?

If you want a really elaborate wb/tint control you could transform to xyY and move data on xy axis, but it is essentially similar to pushing ab components in Lab. And result is still the same as doing simple linear gain on RGB.

White balance means aligning color components so that some specified value becomes neutral (equal value in all channels). Because chromaticity is independent of luminance, relative alignment coeficcient is the same over whole linear light scale. And thus simple linear gain is all that is needed.
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Dmitry Shijan

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Re: Better WB tool for ProRes to match WB in RAW

PostSat May 23, 2020 4:47 pm

Ok, thanks for suggestions! RGB gain in linear gamma works very well, but now i see that it depends a lot from color space. I usually work with BMMCC files in RedWideGamut color space, so seems my mistake always was attempt to adjust WB in RedWideGamut instead of native BMDfilm color space.

When i use native camera BMDfilm color space and switch node gamma to Linear - Temp/Tint tool in Primaries work almost identical to Temp/Tint in RAW.
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Hendrik Proosa

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Re: Better WB tool for ProRes to match WB in RAW

PostSat May 23, 2020 5:13 pm

The temp/tint control has builtin assumptions about gamut. Different gamuts, especially the technical camera source gamuts etc can have wildly different primaries from rec709 and thus the conversion math that allows expressing controls to user as color temp and tint does not work properly anymore.
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Re: Better WB tool for ProRes to match WB in RAW

PostSat May 23, 2020 6:18 pm

Also seems for perfect WB adjustment in linear gamma outside RAW - ProRes file should be in native camera WB. This needs some testing...

Any idea what is the real "native" WB setting for BM cameras? Most sensors are adjusted for Daylight but is there some specific Temp/Tilt settings that as true original White Balance starting point?
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Re: Better WB tool for ProRes to match WB in RAW

PostSat May 23, 2020 8:55 pm

Don't know. Not sure it is actually a property of sensor, that native wb might as well be imposed in sensor gamut transform (that specifies the relation between sensor values and XYZ) because it has to have some white point. Makes no difference for user though...

Temp/tint setting is gamut specific in Resolve because color tools are not colorspace aware. Assumption is something in the lines of "gamut x has white point specified as chromaticity xy. From this we can derive the transform for moving the neutral axis in xy plane that for user looks like warm-cold change or green-magenta change". Accurate way would be to plot the movement in xy to blackbody temp curve and tint as modification perpendicular to it but simpler way is to balance red-blue for wb or green channel for tint with constant luminance. How it is approached in practice is the secret sauce of every sdk and tool I think, end user can only twiddle thumbs and test what happens.
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Dmitry Shijan

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Re: Better WB tool for ProRes to match WB in RAW

PostSat May 23, 2020 9:00 pm

It seems like WB starting point is 5500K. Other temperatures produce color shifts. I started separate thread here viewtopic.php?f=2&t=114403
Last edited by Dmitry Shijan on Sun May 24, 2020 1:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Better WB tool for ProRes to match WB in RAW

PostSun May 24, 2020 4:35 am

"Make it better"?

You understand that's not really an actionable request, right? My thinking is you'd have much better luck getting something added if you provide a...more specific suggestion.
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Dmitry Shijan

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Re: Better WB tool for ProRes to match WB in RAW

PostSun May 24, 2020 11:26 am

Ok, after some tests now i see that perfect WB tool already exists.
WB Temp/Tint tool in Primaries operated in XYZ color space and Linear gamma. Sounds insane, but it produce even better than original WB RAW controls.

Temp/Tint tool in Primaries sliders are limited by temperature 4000 tilt 100, so in huge ACES or XYZ color space i need to add 2-3 node copies of same tool to adjust WB enough.

:arrow: It would be great to extend min-max value limits in Temp/Tint tool in Primaries sliders
All my custom made accessories for BMMCC/BMMSC now available here https://lavky.com/radioproektor/

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