NMOS Setup?

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Brett Casadonte

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NMOS Setup?

PostSun Oct 29, 2023 11:52 pm

Hello - Wondering if anyone has the new Decklink IP cards and if so, have you been successful using NMOS... the web site says that the devices support it, but I can't see where one would access this capability. Feels like there is a forthcoming upgrade to the BM VideoHubs that may be required to setup / advertise available 2110 sources via NMOS...

Very curious because I can't seem to find any information in BM's product documentation...

Thanks,
Brett Casadonte
Founder and Techinical Director - GlobeStream Media
http://www.globestreammedia.com
Live Production: on-location and REMI using LiveU
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Tobias Dieterich

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Re: NMOS Setup?

PostMon Oct 30, 2023 7:55 am

Hi,

did you already receive the card? I'm still waiting for both the Decklink card and the SDI box.

The card should look fo a registry using is-04 via DNS-SD. Do you see any requests? You can also check if is-05 is working.

is-05 is using HTTP to control the devices. You can use your browser, curl or the nmos-cpp kit to do some experiments. Just have a look on the specs. Maybe try to request available API versions using is-05 (http(s)://<ip address or hostname>:<port>/x-nmos/connection/)
https://specs.amwa.tv/is-04/
https://specs.amwa.tv/is-05/
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Brett Casadonte

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Re: NMOS Setup?

PostWed Nov 01, 2023 3:03 am

Thanks for the suggestions. I'll give them a whirl tomorrow. I did get the IP / SDI Card and I have it here, but the rest of the IP / 2110 product line from BM seems to still be on its way to resellers. The 2110 IP Converter hasn't started shipping yet, and my reseller is telling me December / January for that one. We'll know for sure when BM updates their firmware to support it. Looks like they are having some issues with the software though since it appears that the initial support for all of the IP products is only 2 2110 streams, not 3 as was initially advertised.

Thanks,
Brett Casadonte
Founder and Techinical Director - GlobeStream Media
http://www.globestreammedia.com
Live Production: on-location and REMI using LiveU
ATEM 2 M/E, 1 M/E, TV Studio Pro 4k, BM URSA Broadcast, & Studio/Micro Studio Cameras
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Tobias Dieterich

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Re: NMOS Setup?

PostFri Nov 03, 2023 12:25 pm

Yep, also got the information from the supplyer that there is a big firmware issue and all delivieries are stopped until further notice.

Let's see when I will the decklink card, seems like they are not held back.

Did you get any nmos info out of the card? ;-)
Tobias Dieterich | T.D. Video Engineering | www.tdvideo.de

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canigou77

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Re: NMOS Setup?

PostFri Nov 24, 2023 9:05 am

Hello, we have 2 HD IP Optical cards and a IP Converter. With NMOS-CPP, I get IS-04 information, in read-only mode.
I cannot change the Active flag to route a source to a destination (IS-05).
T'm working on windows with 12.7.1 driver
Jean-François SEIGNOLE
Paris
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Brett Casadonte

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Re: NMOS Setup?

PostSat Nov 25, 2023 4:59 pm

Hi Tobias -

Thanks for the suggestions and sorry for the slow response. I've been up to my eyeballs in production this month...

Some good news and bad news on the 2110 / BM front. First the good news is that I was able to take your suggestion and connect to the Decklink card as well as the 2110 IP Converter (I purchased a few of these which have since come in as well). Using a web browser, I'm able to connect to both just fine and discern from the information available which ports the various essences were being sent on for their 2110 output. So good news there. Also, I have a Panasonic Kairos IP switcher, and once I had the port information for the video essence in the 2110 stream, it was able to connect to the Decklink card.

Now for the bad news... while I do indeed have a PTPv2 clock on my network, it does not appear that the Decklink card and the Kairos were properly synced to it. While the Kairos could receive the 2110 stream from the Decklink card (though not the 2110 converter), it gave me an 'out of sync' error and the video stream was not frame-synced. Thus it was a garbled mess. Also, when I tried to connect the Decklink 2110 stream to the 2110 IP converter, the converter recognized the NMOS announcement and allowed me to select either stream 1 or 2 output, but alas no video came through.

Anyway, so that's my progress at this point with 2110 and the BM products. I'm sure that there is more configuration that I need to implement somewhere along the lines to get things to work properly, I'll just have to try and spend more time with it over the coming week or two and see if I can successfully get this implemented.

Thanks,
Last edited by Brett Casadonte on Wed Nov 29, 2023 2:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Brett Casadonte
Founder and Techinical Director - GlobeStream Media
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Tobias Dieterich

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Re: NMOS Setup?

PostSat Nov 25, 2023 7:03 pm

Hey Brett,

thanks for that feedback. Still waiting for my orders, but no delivery date announced...

According to Blackmagic Design their devices can act as PTPv2 grand master. You could use Meinberg's PTP Track Hound application to check PTP status of your network and what clocks are out there. On their demo setup they did not use a dedicated clock.
Tobias Dieterich | T.D. Video Engineering | www.tdvideo.de

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Julusian

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Re: NMOS Setup?

PostMon Nov 27, 2023 11:27 am

My card and converter arrived the other week.

I don't have a proper PTP clock, but the converter appears to be acting as the clock for both.
It is also worth noting that I don't have anything else doing 2110 or PTP on the network currently, so I can't comment on interoperability

Usually the converter is able to see the decklink and I can route signals from decklink to converter on the front panel of the converter, but sometimes it fails to see the decklink.
I haven't seen a way to choose what is being sent into the decklink other than through nmos.

I have also run https://github.com/sony/nmos-cpp to try out nmos. Once I got it deployed and running, both devices have registered themselves there, and using https://github.com/sony/nmos-js I am able to control what streams everything is subscribing to.
I think I have had it on occasion where one device doesnt manage to register with the nmos registry, I havent tried to investigate this, so that may or may not be blackmagics fault
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Gemini

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Re: NMOS Setup?

PostMon Nov 27, 2023 2:07 pm

Hi All

The Blackmagic 2110 uses PTPv2 Domain 127 with 4 Announce Messages per Second (-2)
Because it's hard coded and not ajustable, all the other devices need to set to the same values
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Brett Casadonte

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Re: NMOS Setup?

PostWed Nov 29, 2023 2:37 pm

So some good news... I was finally able to get the 2110 converter working with my Panasonic Kairos setup. In what was a bit of an interesting accident, I ended up setting up my second 2110 converter just to see if the two could transmit a signal back and forth. When I selected the originating 2110 converter's IP video stream, it 'activated' the master_enable which allowed the Kairos to see the video stream as well. However, over a period of about 10-15 minutes, the IP video signal started getting jittery, so that wasn't ideal. I'll need more time to uncover that issues, but at least for the moment I've been able to successfully transmit a 2110 signal from the BM 2110 converter to my Kairos switcher!

In regards to clocking... The Kairos was setup as a follower and it appeared to be able to successfully identify the BM 2110 converter as its clock source. I say appeared because in Kairos it showed that it was getting a sync signal from the network (and the BM 2110 was the only other device on the network, at least until I added the second one). That said, the Kairos also showed "no sync" when the IP 2110 video came up in the multi-view, so that was a bit curious. I suspect that this plays into the jitter issue that I was seeing and I suspect that the two are related.... more work to do when I have some extra time, but in general, positive developments.

BTW - for those that are interested, I'm using a Ubiquiti UniFi Pro Aggregation switch (our company network is almost all UniFi-based, except for our Peplink routers that provide PepVPN connectivity for our bonded-cellular remote productions). I also have a UniFi Enterprise XG 24 switch, the one that BM notes in the 2110 users guide as compatible, but I've not had a chance to integrate it into our network. That will probably happen next week, at which point I'll spend more time working to integrate 2110 into our environment.
Brett Casadonte
Founder and Techinical Director - GlobeStream Media
http://www.globestreammedia.com
Live Production: on-location and REMI using LiveU
ATEM 2 M/E, 1 M/E, TV Studio Pro 4k, BM URSA Broadcast, & Studio/Micro Studio Cameras
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Re: NMOS Setup?

PostTue Dec 05, 2023 2:49 pm

Hi Brett,

I'm wondering if you've made any progress with this.... I've got a Kairos setup that is working but no luck with the blackmagic 2110 ip convertor 3x3g... we have a mellanox switch and I can see the igmp v3 multicast group with either kairos in it, or a pair of blackmagic convertors.

They (kairos and blackmagic devices) dont join the multicast group simultaneously (viewed on the switch), and I can't set one Blackmagic device to receive the stream from the other. Using Riedel nmos explorer on windows it is possible to start streams, stop them, copy the sdp, change or view parameters etc.

I'm wondering if some other necessary protocols have been set like the ptp with no option to change them...
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Re: NMOS Setup?

PostThu Dec 07, 2023 5:17 pm

Julusian wrote:My card and converter arrived the other week.

I don't have a proper PTP clock, but the converter appears to be acting as the clock for both.
It is also worth noting that I don't have anything else doing 2110 or PTP on the network currently, so I can't comment on interoperability

I use a PI4 Compute Module with a TimeBeat GPS card as PTP clock in my lab environment.
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Re: NMOS Setup?

PostThu Dec 07, 2023 5:40 pm

brianstorm wrote:Hi Brett,

I'm wondering if you've made any progress with this.... I've got a Kairos setup that is working but no luck with the blackmagic 2110 ip convertor 3x3g... we have a mellanox switch and I can see the igmp v3 multicast group with either kairos in it, or a pair of blackmagic convertors.

They (kairos and blackmagic devices) dont join the multicast group simultaneously (viewed on the switch), and I can't set one Blackmagic device to receive the stream from the other. Using Riedel nmos explorer on windows it is possible to start streams, stop them, copy the sdp, change or view parameters etc.

I'm wondering if some other necessary protocols have been set like the ptp with no option to change them...

I have been doing some tests with ffmpeg as receiver for 2110 from the 3x3. It does not work if I have not since the last reboot connected a stream to one of my other 3x3 units.
If I make a connection to one of my other 3x3 units it works fine even if I remove the 3x3 receiver until next reboot.
I can verify that my switch detects the multicast request but no data starts to flow.
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Re: NMOS Setup?

PostThu Dec 07, 2023 7:26 pm

Hello all.
I've done some progress on my lab setup.
I can now see the 2 video/audio outputs of a Optical HD on a BMD ConvertIP.
110 routing is done with Riedel NMOS Explorer.
PTP coming from a Greyware server.
Coming soon : decoding video/audio with another device (Matrox)
Jean-François SEIGNOLE
Paris
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Re: NMOS Setup?

PostFri Dec 08, 2023 6:11 am

Hi, on my side I received both a 3x3 converter, and the decklink optical card.

I started to test the converter first, but my first concern was the no ability to set the PTP domain to the one we use ( moreover using 127 by default is far from recommended practices) . So for me it's a no go for this box right now.
I still did some checks to the NMOS API, and could see that it looks very buggy as well.

I expect the card behaving the same way at least concerning PTP domain , so I won't test it for the moment.

My exchanges with BMD support give me the feeling they don't really understand how 2110 set-ups work, and how they should comply with it instead of pushing their own vision of it.
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Re: NMOS Setup?

PostFri Dec 08, 2023 10:18 am

Hi,

since this appears to be the only thread on this topic, I was wandering if you have any insights on BMs claim that
Videohub Smart Control can route sources to destinations on 2110 IP networks because it can act as an NMOS controller.
The available documentation on the Videohub Smart Control Pro does not mention any of that. Does this simply mean that there is a software update needed or am I missing something?

Thank you, cheers

Martin
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Gary Adams

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Re: NMOS Setup?

PostFri Dec 08, 2023 5:53 pm

That’s a good question. NMOS in the Smart Control is not ready yet. I’m sorry I don’t have any more information than that.

Gary
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Tobias Dieterich

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Re: NMOS Setup?

PostFri Dec 08, 2023 6:31 pm

I also did some experiments using two 3x3 converters only. Somehow "they see each other" without an NMOS registry. As soon as I start ne registroy fo easy-nmos, they don't offer routing via its menus aymore. However they appear in the registry. Next step is to route using Riedel NMOS explorer.

Concerning PTP: I did not involve a proper PTPv2 GM. However the 3x3 can act as a GM.
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canigou77

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Re: NMOS Setup?

PostMon Dec 11, 2023 2:08 pm

Gary Adams wrote:That’s a good question. NMOS in the Smart Control is not ready yet. I’m sorry I don’t have any more information than that.

Gary


Hi Gary
do you know if BM will present the products at the next "JT-NM tested" session ?
Jean-François SEIGNOLE
Paris
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Re: NMOS Setup?

PostSun Jan 28, 2024 2:08 am

Hi,

I have just purchased the BM 2110 IP converter and have a couple of questions. Not sure this is the correct place, but there seems to be related information.

I want to use the product to test encoders with 2110 inputs and decoders with 2110 outputs. I want to use the BM to convert from my playout server that has a SDI output. I want to monitor the decoder output using a SDI monitor.

My first question is where is PTP set up? I have a GrandMaster and want to feed this multicast, into the unit. The only PTP config I see mentioned is as follows:

"Set converter as a PTP follower". Reading some comments in this forum it looks like PTP may not be fully supported, but a master-slave point to point relationship.

I think the unit should join multicast - 224.0.1.129

Also I see where the output multicast addresses are set for each of the 3 streams. I do not see where the UDP port is set up for each of the essences, video, audio, etc.

Regarding the video flow IP to SDI, where is the specific multicast set up so the BM can listen to the correct address.

Thanks in advance.

Pete
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Re: NMOS Setup?

PostMon Jan 29, 2024 6:01 pm

Hi Pete,
I myself am just starting to get into ST2110 (so other people please correct me if, I get anything wrong!) but I'm happy to share what I was able to find out so far from experimenting with the BMD Products (converter and decklink).

Vidiffusion wrote:My first question is where is PTP set up? I have a GrandMaster and want to feed this multicast, into the unit. The only PTP config I see mentioned is as follows:


The ST2110 Converter doesn't offer any proper PTP Settings except for the checkbox that sets it into slave only mode. However after looking at the ptp packets in wireshark I figured out that the ST2110 converter is set up on ptpt domain 127 and comes with an internal Grandmaster clock that has a very low priority (high number). So basically as soon as you connect a proper PTP time server to the network it should immediately take over the role of the grandmaster clock, making the BM converter an ordinary clock again.

Vidiffusion wrote:Also I see where the output multicast addresses are set for each of the 3 streams. I do not see where the UDP port is set up for each of the essences, video, audio, etc.

Regarding the video flow IP to SDI, where is the specific multicast set up so the BM can listen to the correct address.


The routing of the video signals has to be done via nmos. The ST2110 converter offers a really basic implementation of an nmos registry/ controller but I'd recommend looking into easy nmos. Once you have set up a proper nmmos registry, a control software like Riedel nmos explorer will also let you configure the separate multicast addresses + ports for video, audio and ancillary streams.

Hope this helps
Max
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Vidiffusion

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Re: NMOS Setup?

PostMon Feb 05, 2024 1:20 am

Max,

Many thanks for your reply. I have been doing some more experimentation regarding this unit.

I think I get the PTP set up as I have been monitoring via Wireshark also. When the PTP follower option is unchecked, I see the BM converter act as a Grand Master, though in the ANNOUCE message, it states the Timesource is an INTERNAL OSCILLATOR.

When the BM converter is connected to my GPS sourced Grand Master and the PTP Follower is checked, I do not see any response from the BM. I have a PC also on the network that is taking my same GM, I see a periodic DELAY_REQ message from my PC. I do not see this from the BM converter, so I do not know that the BM is connected to my GM.

I have a valid SDI source connected to SDI 1. I can monitor this on the BM converter screen. However when I monitor the BM multicast output that is directly connected to my laptop via 10G Ethernet interface, I see the PTP info incoming but not the 2110 multicast for the address set up in the BM for SDI 1. DO you know what I am missing?

Regards

Pete
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maxschroeter

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Re: NMOS Setup?

PostWed Feb 07, 2024 9:55 pm

Hi Pete,
no worries.

When the BM converter is connected to my GPS sourced Grand Master and the PTP Follower is checked, I do not see any response from the BM. I have a PC also on the network that is taking my same GM, I see a periodic DELAY_REQ message from my PC. I do not see this from the BM converter, so I do not know that the BM is connected to my GM.


Your setup seems to be really close to the one I have.
Your are right, the BM Converter should respond with a delay request just like your PC does. I would assume that the issue lies within the configuration of your Grand Master Clock. Did you check if the announce messages coming from your GMC have the same PTP domain as the ones that were coming from the BMD converter (127)?

I have a valid SDI source connected to SDI 1. I can monitor this on the BM converter screen. However when I monitor the BM multicast output that is directly connected to my laptop via 10G Ethernet interface, I see the PTP info incoming but not the 2110 multicast for the address set up in the BM for SDI 1. DO you know what I am missing?


Monitoring the st2110 output with a point to point connection to your laptop doesn't work because the BM converter doesnt just constantly emit a video stream on its network interface. The sender has to be specifically activated through nmos for it to start the stream. This can be done via easy nmos.

Hope this helps
Max
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brianstorm

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Re: NMOS Setup?

PostFri Feb 09, 2024 4:41 pm

has anyone had any luck with making two of the 2110 convertors stream to each other?

in my case via an nvidia mellanox switch (setup as a central part of a working 2110 system) it seems that i can't stream from one unit to another.

using the riedel nmos explorer i can configure streams on the two convertors and start/stop the streams...

i'd be interested to hear from anyone that has successfully sent video between two 2110 convertors, and see if i can replicate it...
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brianstorm

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Re: NMOS Setup?

PostMon Feb 12, 2024 5:18 pm

brianstorm wrote:has anyone had any luck with making two of the 2110 convertors stream to each other?

in my case via an nvidia mellanox switch (setup as a central part of a working 2110 system) it seems that i can't stream from one unit to another.

using the riedel nmos explorer i can configure streams on the two convertors and start/stop the streams...

i'd be interested to hear from anyone that has successfully sent video between two 2110 convertors, and see if i can replicate it...



I have tried to send a signal between two 2110 convertor units with a different switch and they still dont seem to work.

i'm guessing that they dont work and thats that? or has anyone successfully used these?
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Tobias Dieterich

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NMOS Setup?

PostTue Feb 13, 2024 6:04 am

brianstorm wrote:i'm guessing that they dont work and thats that? or has anyone successfully used these?

I had a setup of two of those running without an extra PTP master clock and NMOS registry. They will show up in each others menu where you can route and start the streams.
Used an Arista 7050SX-64.


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Re: NMOS Setup?

PostThu Feb 15, 2024 11:41 am

Tobias,

I have a similar setup to you, Arista 7050SX3 switch but I do have a PTP master and NMOS registry. I have a pair of BMD 2110 converters attached to the switch. Using Reidel NMOS explorer I can see the devices, sender and receivers. I can successfully route the 2110 output of either BMD 2110 to a 3rd party 2110 receiver and get video. When I look at the igmp group table I can see the entry created by the 3rd party 2110 receiver subscribing to the multicast group.

If I try and route any streams TO one of the BMD 2110 receivers everything looks good in NMOS explorer but I don't get a video output (which seems consistent with what a number of others are experiencing). If I look at the igmp group table on the switch, no group has been created suggesting the BMD 2110 receiver has not subscribed to the multicast group. I have also tried a tcpdump of the igmp traffic on the port the BMD 2110 receiver is using and as far as I can tell it is not sending igmp joins when streams are routed by NMOS explorer. It is however responding to the periodic igmp membership queries but it is not listing the expected multicast group in the reply.

I can successfully loop back its own 2110 traffic and get video out which would again suggest everything is OK on the NMOS side, but that the issue is that the multicast traffic is not being forwarded to the BMD 2110 receiver port because of the missing igmp signalling.

I'm wondering if you had to do anything on your Arista to get your set up to work that I might be missing?
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theearls2000

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Re: NMOS Setup?

PostFri Feb 16, 2024 9:35 am

But it is absolutely important and not really the question. Changing the PTP domain is an essential feature that every 2210 device must support. Without that, we don't even need to talk about whether the cards are really usable.

Regards
Thomas

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