ATEM Mini Pro 720p/30 stream output

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karlalexpauls

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ATEM Mini Pro 720p/30 stream output

PostThu May 14, 2020 3:43 pm

I am a hobbyist documentarian and I specialize in live, on-location political events, demonstrations, and protests.

In many situations I do not have funds for a Live-U or despite having that device the network connection is poor enough that I would like to stream at a rate as low as 1 to 1.5mbps. In order to keep up with a moving shot this means that I cannot shoot 60 fps full HD.

In the product specs I saw that the ATEM Mini Pro is able to scale the camera output as needed. However it appears that the stream output selects the highest frame rate and resolution provided to the device. Creating a custom streaming profile does not reduce the frame rate or resolution as I expected.

The Mini Pro is a great product and it helps me get twice the battery life out of my mobile backpack than what I could achieve with an Intel i5 NUC. The cost is about the same, however without the ability to downscale the stream resolution the ATEM is a downgrade in capabilities for my use-case and will be left at home instead of providing me the more reliable and efficient mobile stream studio that I was hoping to achieve.

Please let me know if I've missed a setting in the ATEM control software or if I can use some method to constrain my stream output to 720p/30.
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karlalexpauls

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Re: ATEM Mini Pro 720p/30 stream output

PostThu May 14, 2020 6:59 pm

I found the Settings button, but unfortunately 1080p/23.98 is the lowest setting I can achieve.

I also tried forcing my cameras down to 720p/60 and that didn't change the resolution visible in the Settings Video Standard "Auto Mode".

Please consider this a feature request for 720p/30 outputs.
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Denny Smith

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Re: ATEM Mini Pro 720p/30 stream output

PostFri May 15, 2020 5:41 am

Sorry, 720p30 is not a standard video resolution, it is 720p59.84 (60).
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karlalexpauls

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Re: ATEM Mini Pro 720p/30 stream output

PostFri May 15, 2020 4:16 pm

Denny Smith wrote:Sorry, 720p30 is not a standard video resolution, it is 720p59.84 (60).
Cheers


720p60 is not available in the ATEM Mini Pro's Settings menu.
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Denny Smith

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Re: ATEM Mini Pro 720p/30 stream output

PostSat May 16, 2020 12:51 am

No, and neither is 720p30. The ATEM Mini is a full 1080pmHD device. You need a Up/Down/Cross converter to get 720p60, or feed the HDMI output of the Mini into a WebPresenter which converts the USB output to a 720p webcam.
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Denny Smith
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Stefan Flos

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Re: ATEM Mini Pro 720p/30 stream output

PostSun May 17, 2020 12:38 pm

or use the webpresenter: that is 720 max...
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karlalexpauls

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Re: ATEM Mini Pro 720p/30 stream output

PostSat May 23, 2020 7:34 pm

Denny Smith wrote:You need a Up/Down/Cross converter to get 720p60


You seem to have some problem understanding my post. I'm requesting 720p30 streaming output.

I am able to recover some bandwidth using 1080p24 but 720p30 would be much better.

I appreciate focusing on that as my use-case and helping keep that clear for Blackmagic developers reading this forum for feedback.
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ishootyou.com

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Re: ATEM Mini Pro 720p/30 stream output

PostSat May 23, 2020 9:42 pm

Bring it into OBS and stream from there setting OBS to whatever you need. Another option would be a Webcaster X2 as a streaming device.
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DavidSwinehart

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Re: ATEM Mini Pro 720p/30 stream output

PostSat May 23, 2020 11:20 pm

I'm in a similar situation, where I am now streaming weekly from my church during the COVID pandemic, and the internet signal from their ISP is unreliable and often insufficient to support even the "low" (3500/Kbps) stream setting from the ATEM Mini Pro.

At the moment, we're bringing the signal over to my MacBook Pro via USB-C and encoding the stream with OBS. OBS can downgrade the signal to 720 / 30fps / 2000Kbps, but as anyone who has used OBS with a newer MacBook knows, it's a horrible experience.

What I think the OP is getting at, and I want the same thing, is the ability to output the encoded stream directly from the Mini Pro at 720 / 30fps / 2000Kbps (I think YouTube Live gives error messages when the signal is less than 2000Kbps).

Since the Mini Pro already has multiple encode quality options and frame rates, is it possible to write a script to create a "baseline" quality option?
Forgive my ignorance - I'm a producer and not an engineer, so I'm not educated on how this works.

The whole purpose of trading our ATEM Mini for the Pro model was to use the built-in encoder and bypass OBS. It's frustrating that OBS gives options all the way down to SD but the Mini Pro does not.
David
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Dave Del Vecchio

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Re: ATEM Mini Pro 720p/30 stream output

PostSat May 23, 2020 11:55 pm

As mentioned on the technical specifications page for the ATEM Mini Pro, only the following 1080p streaming output resolutions are supported:
https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/produc ... s/W-APS-14
Video Streaming Standards
1080p23.98, 1080p24, 1080p25, 1080p29.97, 1080p30, 1080p50, 1080p59.94, 1080p60
If you edit the XML configuration file for the streaming settings, you might be able to lower the bitrate for one of the 1080p encoding levels to 2000 Kbps, although I'm not sure what the resulting video quality will be as 2000 Kbps is a bit low for a 1080p stream. Some additional information about editing the XML file can be found in this thread:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=110844

It would certainly be nice if Blackmagic added support for scaling on the ATEM Mini Pro stream output, but this isn't supported at the moment and it's not clear if there is sufficient processing power in the ATEM Mini hardware to allow for output scaling to arbitrary resolutions and frame rates.
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Denny Smith

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Re: ATEM Mini Pro 720p/30 stream output

PostSun May 24, 2020 2:52 pm

Adding to what Dave wrote, the ATEM Mini was designed as a 1080p device. For a 720p webcam output, BMD makes the Web Presenter. I agree with Dave, in I doubt BMD will downscale the Mini to 720p.

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Denny Smith
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karlalexpauls

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Re: ATEM Mini Pro 720p/30 stream output

PostFri May 29, 2020 3:18 am

ishootyou.com wrote:Bring it into OBS and stream from there setting OBS to whatever you need. Another option would be a Webcaster X2 as a streaming device.


The ATEM Mini Pro provides me 6 hours of streaming. An Intel NUC i5 with 2 Cam Links will only run for a little over 2 hours.

Have a look at Unicorn Riot's broadcast today to get a sense of what kinds of situations this might be useful in.
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karlalexpauls

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Re: ATEM Mini Pro 720p/30 stream output

PostFri May 29, 2020 3:21 am

Dave Del Vecchio wrote:If you edit the XML configuration file for the streaming settings, you might be able to lower the bitrate for one of the 1080p encoding levels to 2000 Kbps, although I'm not sure what the resulting video quality will be as 2000 Kbps is a bit low for a 1080p stream.


I have been able to test streaming at 1080p24 from 1.2 mbit to 2.4 mbit.

I use multiple sites, some which do not limit me to 2 mbit. Also when my data link is especially congested it would be useful to go as low as possible in order to maintain a connection. I have remote offline protection, but getting a continuous stream is more important.
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TimBradley

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Re: ATEM Mini Pro 720p/30 stream output

PostSun May 31, 2020 11:49 pm

I want to be able to stream to Facebook which wants 720P. Please give us an option for outputing that (in PAL - 25P)

Thank you!

Cheers,
Tim
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tim_hughes

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Re: ATEM Mini Pro 720p/30 stream output

PostSun May 31, 2020 11:59 pm

+1 for 720 output please BMD!
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ishootyou.com

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Re: ATEM Mini Pro 720p/30 stream output

PostTue Jun 02, 2020 5:43 am

Facebook does the downscaling for you, why the hassle? If the internet connection is too low for 1080 it might not be a good idea to stream anyway.
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Walter Sonius

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Re: ATEM Mini Pro 720p/30 stream output

PostTue Jun 02, 2020 12:18 pm

TimBradley wrote:I want to be able to stream to Facebook which wants 720P. Please give us an option for outputing that (in PAL - 25P)

Thank you!

Cheers,
Tim


Make a half framerate option for streaming over Ethernet would indeed be a nice feature for 720p50 or 720p/59.94, however recording to the USB should still maintain full project resolution & framerate. Will try some XML editing as soon as the device arrives.
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Kastanu4

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Re: ATEM Mini Pro 720p/30 stream output

PostTue Jun 02, 2020 9:28 pm

ATEM gives Directshow video over the usb-c. You could run ffmpeg, capture this video, encode to 720p and stream to YouTube/Facebook. For the first time it could be harder, than OBS, but if you have some problems with OBS on Mac - it could work.
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TimBradley

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Re: ATEM Mini Pro 720p/30 stream output

PostWed Jun 03, 2020 1:56 am

ishootyou.com wrote:Facebook does the downscaling for you, why the hassle?


So even though I get event log messages in the Facebook live saying resolution too high, Facebook will accept the stream without any problems?

Thank you!
Tim Bradley
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goran diffner

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Re: ATEM Mini Pro 720p/30 stream output

PostWed Jun 03, 2020 11:58 am

Dont you still bring a laptop with you on the road. Im not sure how the pro version works but if nothing changed with an update I never did on mine at least the none pro wants a computer to setup the audio 100%. If you do you got options for 720 with obs or fmle in to your stream.
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ishootyou.com

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Re: ATEM Mini Pro 720p/30 stream output

PostWed Jun 03, 2020 2:37 pm

TimBradley wrote:
ishootyou.com wrote:Facebook does the downscaling for you, why the hassle?


So even though I get event log messages in the Facebook live saying resolution too high, Facebook will accept the stream without any problems?

Thank you!


Yes as far as I know. I streamed for my company on Facebook once without any problems.
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Dave Del Vecchio

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Re: ATEM Mini Pro 720p/30 stream output

PostWed Jun 03, 2020 9:54 pm

TimBradley wrote:So even though I get event log messages in the Facebook live saying resolution too high, Facebook will accept the stream without any problems?
Yes, I have done numerous multi-hour streams to Facebook sending it 1080p video up to 60fps from various streaming encoders. Even though the Facebook live monitoring console will report a bunch of warning messages about the streaming resolution and frame rate, I have never found this to actually affect the streams that viewers see.

Facebook's live platform does support 1080p60 streaming for certain gaming users, so clearly their streaming infrastructure is able to ingest incoming 1080p streams without any problems. Their platform also does live transcoding to lower resolutions and frame rates. So for most Facebook accounts that are limited to 720p30 video, the incoming video stream will automatically be transcoded from a 1080p source resolution to 720p for viewers.
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grantwood

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Re: ATEM Mini Pro 720p/30 stream output

PostThu Jun 04, 2020 5:24 pm

I'd also like to put a vote in for 720p output over USB when connected to a computer (if it is even possible given the chipsets within the device).

The use case here is simple, and has nothing to do with whether or not 1080p at various framerates and bitrates are better or even supported by one platform or another. I use the ATEM mini Pro for video conferencing and presenting, and out of the box it does exactly what I need as a presenter, but is on the border of bing un-useable for live streaming.

Nearly every video conferencing application that I have to use (and no I don't always get to choose), Skype, Zoom, MS Teams, WebEx, GoToMeeting, Join Me, Google Meet, etc. has native support for 720p for participants, primarily because that is what resolution camera is built into nearly every laptop today. Yes, some of them support 1080p, that is not in dispute. It is important to note however, that the way many support 1080p, is often to down convert it to 720p on the presenter's computer prior to uploading the stream. This can put a huge CPU load on the host system.

Additionally, not all software is equal. For instance, Zoom manages this trick with 120% CPU usage, while MS Teams uses 280% on my older MacBook Pro. Both of these systems lag horribly, and participants see video on "satellite delay" while the audio comes through on time when using the ATEM mini as a webcam source. This delay is entirely because the computer can't keep up with the encoding.

Choosing to use a device like the ATEM mini means you get to offload most if not all of the video processing from your computer. You don't need software like EEcam, and you can use much nicer cameras. Unfortunately the value of offloading the video processing vanishes if your computer needs to re-encode the stream in order to use it. If the ATEM mini could output a 720p 30fps stream over usb to a computer, then a lot of us could have avoided buying a whole new computer just to handle what the ATEM mini could do. This makes the ATEM mini Pro valuable to an even larger audience IMHO, and may justify the development cost (again, if it's even possible)

Just my 2¢
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karlalexpauls

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Re: ATEM Mini Pro 720p/30 stream output

PostThu Jun 04, 2020 9:22 pm

goran diffner wrote:Dont you still bring a laptop with you on the road. Im not sure how the pro version works but if nothing changed with an update I never did on mine at least the none pro wants a computer to setup the audio 100%.


I do not use a laptop at all. I operate the ATEM Mini Pro in headless mode carrying it in a wire cage over my shoulder.

Here's an example of my latest work during the Seattle protests: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/640742551

I will be trying to use an Intel Compute Stick to run ATEM Control Software over WiFi. Then I should be able to load settings and run macros to take full advantage of the ATEM while being in basically the same setup as my current headless operation.

In headless mode ATEM seems to save the setup parameters, the stream destination, but not much else.

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