Web Presenter HD + Constellation Rec2020 Issue

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Thibaud

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Web Presenter HD + Constellation Rec2020 Issue

PostThu Apr 22, 2021 3:35 pm

Hello,

There really seems to be an issue with the Web Presenter Firmware 2.1 when using it with the Constellation 8K. I work with a 1080p25 signal.

Here is the workflow I tested to generate the screenshot attached:

A. Media Player 1 still image in the ATEM Mini Extreme media pool -> Direct Stream to Youtube using built in encoder (Streaming High)
B. Media Player 1 still image in the ATEM Constellation media pool -> SDI IN Web Presenter HD (Streaming High) ->Stream to Youtube

Live stream B is way more saturated. Does that with anything you put into the Constellation 8K (cameras / computers...)

Anyone found a way to fix it ?

Image

Thanks,
Last edited by Thibaud on Thu Apr 22, 2021 10:37 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Xtreemtec

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Re: Web Presenter HD + Constellation Rec2020 Issue

PostThu Apr 22, 2021 4:02 pm

Actually you could just loop back the monitor output of the Webpresenter HD into the constellation and put it next the mediaplayer on Multiviewer.

You will see that the Output is oversatured of the Webpresenter.

Buddy my says the WPHD also says REC2020 in the display with HD signal on it.. But when you change the output of the Constellation to 1080P Level A the Webpresenter says Rec 709 and its fine..

Not tested this myself because still waiting on my delivery of the WPHD units....
Daniel Wittenaar .:: Xtreemtec Media Productions ::. -= www.xtreemtec.nl =-
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Thibaud

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Re: Web Presenter HD + Constellation Rec2020 Issue

PostThu Apr 22, 2021 4:50 pm

Indeed thanks ! Just tried setting to Level A and it's fine... but that means we cannot use 25P / 30P / 24P etc... only 50p / 50i / 59.94i.... not good.
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Xtreemtec

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Re: Web Presenter HD + Constellation Rec2020 Issue

PostThu Apr 22, 2021 6:39 pm

That is strange.. So you say that in 50i and 25P it will say Rec2020 instead of Rec709?? :shock:
Daniel Wittenaar .:: Xtreemtec Media Productions ::. -= www.xtreemtec.nl =-
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Thibaud

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Re: Web Presenter HD + Constellation Rec2020 Issue

PostThu Apr 22, 2021 10:36 pm

To be more precise

24p / 25p / 30p ---> Rec2020
50i / 50p / 59.94i AND Level A---> Rec709
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Andy Coulthurst

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Re: Web Presenter HD + Constellation Rec2020 Issue

PostMon Apr 26, 2021 6:04 pm

I'm seeing the same problem.
Constellation at 1080p50 into Web Presenter HD - result is everything looks too saturated , and I personally look like I've been in the sun too long !
I cannot use Level A because my Audio Monitor doesn't support Level A.

Sigh , my transition to the constellation is looking troubled already.
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Pedro Ruiz Mateos

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Re: Web Presenter HD + Constellation Rec2020 Issue

PostMon Apr 26, 2021 7:24 pm

I have the same problem :cry:
Pedro Ruiz Mateos
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Peter Robbemond

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Re: Web Presenter HD + Constellation Rec2020 Issue

PostMon Apr 26, 2021 8:19 pm

Ai, hopefully this will get fixed with a software update. Shouldn't be too hard really?
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Andy Coulthurst

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Re: Web Presenter HD + Constellation Rec2020 Issue

PostSun May 02, 2021 4:43 pm

I just noticed another issue - as well as the BT2020 issue , timecode appears to stop being detected when using 1080p25 or 1080p50 level B.

I was in the middle of responding to a BM support request for more info when I noticed.
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David Hutchinson

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Re: Web Presenter HD + Constellation Rec2020 Issue

PostMon May 03, 2021 8:09 pm

Yep experiencing the same issues with my Constellation and WP-HD. Somewhat disappointing. Somewhat embarrassing as I was blaming my captions/subtitles provider.
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Andy Coulthurst

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Re: Web Presenter HD + Constellation Rec2020 Issue

PostTue May 04, 2021 9:33 am

Vectorscope picture showing the problem
661E4AF3-7461-4E2F-A261-8211520CF8E4.jpeg
Vectorscope for 75% bars, output from Streaming bridge via web presenter HD set to 1080p25
661E4AF3-7461-4E2F-A261-8211520CF8E4.jpeg (64.66 KiB) Viewed 2131 times
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Andy Coulthurst

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Re: Web Presenter HD + Constellation Rec2020 Issue

PostTue May 04, 2021 9:35 am

I note that the problem is not there with the Constellation set to UHD resolutions.
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Howard Roll

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Re: Web Presenter HD + Constellation Rec2020 Issue

PostTue May 04, 2021 5:09 pm

Andy Coulthurst wrote:Vectorscope picture showing the problem
661E4AF3-7461-4E2F-A261-8211520CF8E4.jpeg


That is an interesting scope, what is the function of the mirroring? Typically full field bars are 100% and SMPTE/ARIB Bars are 75%.

Good Luck
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Andy Coulthurst

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Re: Web Presenter HD + Constellation Rec2020 Issue

PostTue May 04, 2021 6:01 pm

Howard Roll wrote:
Andy Coulthurst wrote:Vectorscope picture showing the problem
The attachment 661E4AF3-7461-4E2F-A261-8211520CF8E4.jpeg is no longer available


That is an interesting scope, what is the function of the mirroring? Typically full field bars are 100% and SMPTE/ARIB Bars are 75%.

Good Luck

I'm an ancient BBC engineer , so for me , Red patch VT bars are normally 75% ( 100% would be difficult for old analogue tape ).
The mirroring is just a hangover for a view similar to the old analogue Vectorscopes ( adding the look of the Pal 180 subcarrier switch on each line. I can turn that off by setting to component view ).
And I think you may be correct that the bars are100% out of the constellation , my mistake , I have the vectorscope set to the correct mode for the bars to match, either 75 or 100%

When viewing the direct signal out of the Constellation , this is the result.
DC25FAE8-2E6C-4FF1-8BA2-0428E2830240.jpeg
DC25FAE8-2E6C-4FF1-8BA2-0428E2830240.jpeg (71.3 KiB) Viewed 2093 times
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Andy Coulthurst

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Re: Web Presenter HD + Constellation Rec2020 Issue

PostTue May 04, 2021 6:27 pm

Anyway - the bottom line appears to be that the Web Presenter HD is incorrectly choosing BT2020 when interpreting incoming colourspace for HD resolutions ( except 1080p50 Level A ) - it should be choosing BT709. For UltraHD it appears to be correctly using BT2020.

It would be interesting to see if its some strange interaction with the Constellation, or purely a Web Presenter HD problem.

I might dig out the TV Studio HD tomorrow and do another test.
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Xtreemtec

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Re: Web Presenter HD + Constellation Rec2020 Issue

PostTue May 04, 2021 7:02 pm

Hope to get my units soon.. They are payed for last week.. But no shipping notice yet..

Got a Phabrix QX 12G here... That does Rec 2020 and Rec709 so it would be easy to find out which one is the culprit..
Daniel Wittenaar .:: Xtreemtec Media Productions ::. -= www.xtreemtec.nl =-
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Andy Coulthurst

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Re: Web Presenter HD + Constellation Rec2020 Issue

PostWed May 05, 2021 10:39 am

UK Support have confirmed they have reproduced the issue and the developers are looking to fix it.
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Thibaud

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Re: Web Presenter HD + Constellation Rec2020 Issue

PostTue May 11, 2021 9:19 am

Hello,

Anyone from Blackmagic has an ETA for this fix ? If it is actually fixable hopefully.

For the moment, the Web Presenter HD cannot be used with the Constellation.
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Xtreemtec

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Re: Web Presenter HD + Constellation Rec2020 Issue

PostTue May 11, 2021 12:18 pm

Thibaud wrote:Hello,

Anyone from Blackmagic has an ETA for this fix ? If it is actually fixable hopefully.

For the moment, the Web Presenter HD cannot be used with the Constellation.

They wont tell you until it's there.. Sorry but that is how they operate.. ;)
Daniel Wittenaar .:: Xtreemtec Media Productions ::. -= www.xtreemtec.nl =-
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jri1234

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Re: Web Presenter HD + Constellation Rec2020 Issue

PostMon Jul 19, 2021 7:31 pm

Has anyone tried downgrading to version 2.0?
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Andy Coulthurst

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Re: Web Presenter HD + Constellation Rec2020 Issue

PostTue Jul 20, 2021 6:02 pm

jri1234 wrote:Has anyone tried downgrading to version 2.0?

8.0 is the earliest with support for the Constellation.
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jri1234

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Re: Web Presenter HD + Constellation Rec2020 Issue

PostTue Jul 20, 2021 6:33 pm

Andy Coulthurst wrote:
jri1234 wrote:Has anyone tried downgrading to version 2.0?

8.0 is the earliest with support for the Constellation.

Sorry. Version 2.0 of Web Presenter HD firmware. Version 2.1 changelog says "Improve compatibility with Rec. 2020 video input signals." I'm wondering if 2.1 actually introduced the problem.
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Andy Coulthurst

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Re: Web Presenter HD + Constellation Rec2020 Issue

PostTue Jul 20, 2021 7:14 pm

I think the problem is not specifically with the web presenter HD , it seems related to the constellation incorrectly marking REC2020 even in such resolutions as 1080p25.

I've tried to read up on how rec2020 is signaled , but I haven't found anything describing it. I've only seen mention that only 4k UHD should use rec2020 and in fact a tektronix document seems to indicate to manually select the colour gamut. Sadly my vectorscope only supports 1.5G so I cannot perform definitive tests to confirm exactly where the issue is. I may try some other equipment soon. It could be that this requires the Webpresenter to select rec709 for hd , and offer a manual choice of rec2020/rec709 for UHD.
I suspect this also means the Constellation might need a manual option.

If anyone has any detail on how or if rec2020 is signaled (ancillary packet) please comment.
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Andy Coulthurst

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Re: Web Presenter HD + Constellation Rec2020 Issue

PostWed Jul 21, 2021 5:45 am

This poster https://www.telestream.net/pdfs/technical/Creating-4K-UHD-Content-Poster_11W-60274-2-2.pdf suggests there is a flag in the VPID ancillary packet to indicate colour space.
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Andy Coulthurst

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Re: Web Presenter HD + Constellation Rec2020 Issue

PostWed Jul 21, 2021 1:26 pm

I have now done some further checks and according to the Decklink SDK example app "Capture Preview" the Constellation is marking the video as Rec2020 when it should not.
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jri1234

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Re: Web Presenter HD + Constellation Rec2020 Issue

PostWed Jul 21, 2021 1:32 pm

Brilliant work. Here's hoping BMD fixes quickly.
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Xtreemtec

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Re: Web Presenter HD + Constellation Rec2020 Issue

PostThu Jul 22, 2021 9:13 am

Andy Coulthurst wrote:I have now done some further checks and according to the Decklink SDK example app "Capture Preview" the Constellation is marking the video as Rec2020 when it should not.

This is the case with multiple products from BMD that they dont send the correct Payload ID's.. So i'm not suprised... :roll:

So yes it probably an update that needs to be happening to the constellation rather then the webpresenter..
Daniel Wittenaar .:: Xtreemtec Media Productions ::. -= www.xtreemtec.nl =-
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Andy Coulthurst

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Re: Web Presenter HD + Constellation Rec2020 Issue

PostFri Jul 30, 2021 3:36 pm

With the new Hyperdecks supporting HDR /Rec2020 - the Constellation might be incompatible. I've ordered two of the Hyperdeck HD Plus units ( I have had the Mini on back order for months ). I hope the Constellation firmware is corrected before they arrive.
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jri1234

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Re: Web Presenter HD + Constellation Rec2020 Issue

PostFri Jul 30, 2021 3:55 pm

Question for you Andy. We have a new build in progress with 1080p29.97. It goes Constellation (which we know incorrectly marks Rec 709 as Rec 2020), then to 2 x AJA 3G-AM embedders (only take up to 3G-SDI), then to an encoder (not the Web Presenter HD, but this encoder takes up to 4K60... so maybe/definitely Rec 2020). Do you think we'll have an issue? Or will the 3G-SDI embedders compensate for this issue?
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Andy Coulthurst

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Re: Web Presenter HD + Constellation Rec2020 Issue

PostFri Jul 30, 2021 5:34 pm

jri1234 wrote:Question for you Andy. We have a new build in progress with 1080p29.97. It goes Constellation (which we know incorrectly marks Rec 709 as Rec 2020), then to 2 x AJA 3G-AM embedders (only take up to 3G-SDI), then to an encoder (not the Web Presenter HD, but this encoder takes up to 4K60... so maybe/definitely Rec 2020). Do you think we'll have an issue? Or will the 3G-SDI embedders compensate for this issue?

Sorry - I have no idea if the embedders modify the problem data , I would suggest they do not as they have no reason to.
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Andy Coulthurst

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Re: Web Presenter HD + Constellation Rec2020 Issue

PostFri Jul 30, 2021 5:38 pm

You would probably have better chance going sdi->hdmi hdmi->sdi.
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Andy Coulthurst

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Re: Web Presenter HD + Constellation Rec2020 Issue

PostSun Aug 01, 2021 10:31 am

Andy Coulthurst wrote:You would probably have better chance going sdi->hdmi hdmi->sdi.

So - I tested this theory. I took one of the new bi-directional sdi/hdmi 3G converters and connected the hdmi input to the hdmi output. Feeding the sdi input from the Constellation and examining the 3G sdi output of the converter by sending to a decklink Quad2 capture card on a pc running the "CapturePreview" sample application ( it can show the Static Colorspace Flag ).

The output of the constellation shows "Rec2020" and the output of the converter shows "Rec.709".
Tested at 1080p25 , 720p50, 1080p50,1080p59.94,1080p24,1080i50.

However this does not appear to work at 1080p29.97,1080p23.98,720p59.94,( no video output from the converter )

Maybe this is helpful to some people as a workaround for the problem.
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jri1234

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Re: Web Presenter HD + Constellation Rec2020 Issue

PostSun Aug 01, 2021 1:30 pm

Andy Coulthurst wrote:
Andy Coulthurst wrote:You would probably have better chance going sdi->hdmi hdmi->sdi.

So - I tested this theory. I took one of the new bi-directional sdi/hdmi 3G converters and connected the hdmi input to the hdmi output. Feeding the sdi input from the Constellation and examining the 3G sdi output of the converter by sending to a decklink Quad2 capture card on a pc running the "CapturePreview" sample application ( it can show the Static Colorspace Flag ).

The output of the constellation shows "Rec2020" and the output of the converter shows "Rec.709".
Tested at 1080p25 , 720p50, 1080p50,1080p59.94,1080p24,1080i50.

However this does not appear to work at 1080p29.97,1080p23.98,720p59.94,( no video output from the converter )

Maybe this is helpful to some people as a workaround for the problem.


That is very sad. Unfortunate that it doesn't work for 1080p29.97. Even more unfortunate that it appears the converter doesn't even output video at 1080p29.97??
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Andy Coulthurst

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Re: Web Presenter HD + Constellation Rec2020 Issue

PostSun Aug 01, 2021 1:59 pm

It may be a problem with the CapturePreview app - as I did manage to convert the output.
I may be able to test later , as my Vectorscope can manage 1080p29.97
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Andy Coulthurst

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Re: Web Presenter HD + Constellation Rec2020 Issue

PostSun Aug 01, 2021 3:31 pm

Andy Coulthurst wrote:It may be a problem with the CapturePreview app - as I did manage to convert the output.
I may be able to test later , as my Vectorscope can manage 1080p29.97

Just checked with my vectorscope and all resolutions work , but I cannot check the rec2020 flag on the vectorscope.
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Andy Coulthurst

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Re: Web Presenter HD + Constellation Rec2020 Issue

PostSun Aug 01, 2021 3:44 pm

Andy Coulthurst wrote:
Andy Coulthurst wrote:It may be a problem with the CapturePreview app - as I did manage to convert the output.
I may be able to test later , as my Vectorscope can manage 1080p29.97

Just checked with my vectorscope and all resolutions work , but I cannot check the rec2020 flag on the vectorscope.

Re-cabled my Constellation/Webpresenter HD , looking at the Webpresenter HD monitoring output all resolutions from 720p50 to 1080p60 work , and the monitoring states BT.709. I also note that timecode is passed through as well ( presumably because the 3G BiDirectional converter supports timecode over hdmi ).

So - for me it seems like a good solution , the resolution is automatic , and no up/down conversion. And all options are converted to BT709. The only gotcha would be that 3G A/B signaling would need to be manually selected in the Converter setup utility.
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jri1234

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Re: Web Presenter HD + Constellation Rec2020 Issue

PostSun Aug 01, 2021 3:46 pm

Andy Coulthurst wrote:
Andy Coulthurst wrote:
Andy Coulthurst wrote:It may be a problem with the CapturePreview app - as I did manage to convert the output.
I may be able to test later , as my Vectorscope can manage 1080p29.97

Just checked with my vectorscope and all resolutions work , but I cannot check the rec2020 flag on the vectorscope.

Re-cabled my Constellation/Webpresenter HD , looking at the Webpresenter HD monitoring output all resolutions from 720p50 to 1080p60 work , and the monitoring states BT.709. I also note that timecode is passed through as well ( presumably because the 3G BiDirectional converter supports timecode over hdmi ).

So - for me it seems like a good solution , the resolution is automatic , and no up/down conversion. And all options are converted to BT709. The only gotcha would be that 3G A/B signaling would need to be manually selected in the Converter setup utility.


Awesome. So this is SDI in to HDMI out. What about SDI in to SDI loop out?
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Andy Coulthurst

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Re: Web Presenter HD + Constellation Rec2020 Issue

PostSun Aug 01, 2021 4:03 pm

So , the bidirectional converter can operate as two converters , sdi to hdmi AND hdmi to sdi.
In this configuration the HDMI in is looped to the HDMI out with a short cable.

Then feed the Constellation output ( upto 3G resolutions only ) to the bi-directional converter SDI input.
Feed the SDI converter output to the Webpresenter HD.

Hope that makes it clear enough.
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Andy Coulthurst

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Re: Web Presenter HD + Constellation Rec2020 Issue

PostSun Aug 01, 2021 4:05 pm

Big fat warning when you buy the BiDirectional converters , SCAN in the Uk has sent me the wrong item on two occasions, in the end I bought from Thoman.de
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jri1234

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Re: Web Presenter HD + Constellation Rec2020 Issue

PostSun Aug 01, 2021 4:51 pm

Andy Coulthurst wrote:So , the bidirectional converter can operate as two converters , sdi to hdmi AND hdmi to sdi.
In this configuration the HDMI in is looped to the HDMI out with a short cable.

Then feed the Constellation output ( upto 3G resolutions only ) to the bi-directional converter SDI input.
Feed the SDI converter output to the Webpresenter HD.

Hope that makes it clear enough.


This is clear yeah. I knew it was bidirectional but never thought to loop the HDMI out to HDMI in. Clever.
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jri1234

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Re: Web Presenter HD + Constellation Rec2020 Issue

PostSat Sep 11, 2021 4:41 pm

So........ is BMD even working on this?
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Andy Coulthurst

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Re: Web Presenter HD + Constellation Rec2020 Issue

PostSun Sep 12, 2021 11:32 am

jri1234 wrote:So........ is BMD even working on this?

I was about to ask the same question , this taking too long. I can only hope they are creating a big update which will include this fix.
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Thibaud

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Re: Web Presenter HD + Constellation Rec2020 Issue

PostThu Sep 16, 2021 3:53 pm

Mines are just sitting there on a shelf... useless. Thinking of reselling those.

Anyone knows if this has been fixed in the 4K version of the Web Presenter ?
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jri1234

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Re: Web Presenter HD + Constellation Rec2020 Issue

PostThu Sep 16, 2021 4:08 pm

Thibaud wrote:Mines are just sitting there on a shelf... useless. Thinking of reselling those.

Anyone knows if this has been fixed in the 4K version of the Web Presenter ?


It seems the problem is with the Constellation. The Constellation incorrectly marks it's Rec. 709 output as Rec. 2020. Any device that can take in and auto-detect Rec 2020 (such as the Web Presenter HD) will have the issue. Assuming my understanding is correct.
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Andre Augustin

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Re: Web Presenter HD + Constellation Rec2020 Issue

PostFri Sep 17, 2021 2:50 pm

I can confirm that switching the Constellation to Level A will result in a 709 in the Web Presenter HD and 4k.
Andre Augustin
Bifuteki
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Andy Coulthurst

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Re: Web Presenter HD + Constellation Rec2020 Issue

PostFri Sep 17, 2021 3:01 pm

Andre Augustin wrote:I can confirm that switching the Constellation to Level A will result in a 709 in the Web Presenter HD and 4k.

I think this is only for 1080p50 and 1080p60 , not a solution for non 3G modes.

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