Micro Studio Camera no more?

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David Hutchinson

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Micro Studio Camera no more?

PostMon Aug 02, 2021 9:54 pm

I can't find the Micro Studio Camera 4k on the updated BMD website. Has it passed into history?
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Raphaël Jacquot

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Re: Micro Studio Camera no more?

PostTue Aug 03, 2021 5:51 am

looks like it
maybe it's undergoing a redesign to use the new sensor (low light capabilities :mrgreen: )
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David Hutchinson

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Re: Micro Studio Camera no more?

PostTue Aug 03, 2021 4:16 pm

I've been told they have temporarily removed it because they have huge back order numbers but no way of fulfilling them.
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Raphaël Jacquot

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Re: Micro Studio Camera no more?

PostTue Aug 03, 2021 8:25 pm

David Hutchinson wrote:I've been told they have temporarily removed it because they have huge back order numbers but no way of fulfilling them.


perfect time to upgrade the sensor to the more sensitive one
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robertsmu

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Re: Micro Studio Camera no more?

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Xtreemtec

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Re: Micro Studio Camera no more?

PostWed Aug 04, 2021 9:35 am

robertsmu wrote:https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/blackmagicmicrostudiocamera4k

Only if you know the old link..

But if you go to the main website there is no way to click your way to this page anymore. ;)

Due to a problem that they cant fullfill the orders anymore as sensors are not coming in anymore..
Daniel Wittenaar .:: Xtreemtec Media Productions ::. -= www.xtreemtec.nl =-
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Denny Smith

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Re: Micro Studio Camera no more?

PostWed Aug 04, 2021 5:45 pm

Thought as much, thanks Daniel. Hopefully, BMD May came out with a new version, using the same sensors, used in the new Studio Camera II.
Cheers
Denny Smith
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David Hutchinson

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Re: Micro Studio Camera no more?

PostWed Aug 04, 2021 8:33 pm

Xtreemtec wrote:
Due to a problem that they cant fullfill the orders anymore as sensors are not coming in anymore..


Do you think it's the same reason no Broadcast Cameras have been seen since last November?
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Denny Smith

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Re: Micro Studio Camera no more?

PostWed Aug 04, 2021 9:08 pm

Since the Ursa Broadcast camera uses the same sensor, that would be my conclusion also.
We might see a refresh of this camera also, using the sensor from the new Studio cameras, as the previous models did. Having the larger Four Thirds sensor is a nice addition, especially for smaller studios, allowing a better lens choice.
Cheers
Denny Smith
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Kim Janson

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Re: Micro Studio Camera no more?

PostThu Aug 05, 2021 7:12 am

2015 I got quite exited about the new micro cameras, even build a wooden mockup :D

BMMCC.jpg
BMMCC.jpg (33.61 KiB) Viewed 1400 times


The concept was wonderful, but the implementation left some things to desire:

- originally the micro studio was supposed to have global shutter, but that did not happen
- they both have the expansion port and many interfaces, too many, and was missing 2 way serial communication to fully control the camera. that is the only thing really I would like to have and exposure/synch pulse.
- it has wonderful and solid body, but weak attachment points? that really is a missed opportunity. Making the attachment points to the cooling construction that is solid metal and goes trough the camera would conduct also heat.
- and many customers are rejecting micro studio because of the image noise levels.

But despite all this, I think they where pioneers, and very reasonably priced. I hope we will see next version of them, it is about time after 6 years.
LeViteZer Smooths the movement, www.levitezer.com
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Xtreemtec

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Re: Micro Studio Camera no more?

PostThu Aug 05, 2021 12:38 pm

Denny Smith wrote:Since the Ursa Broadcast camera uses the same sensor, that would be my conclusion also.
We might see a refresh of this camera also, using the sensor from the new Studio cameras, as the previous models did. Having the larger Four Thirds sensor is a nice addition, especially for smaller studios, allowing a better lens choice.
Cheers

Sorry Denny but the Micro Studio is NOT the same sensor as the Ursa Broadcast. It had the same sensor as the big studio camera. Which is now EOL and replaced since last week..

The ursa Broadcast has a much smaller sensor because they could not fit the image plane of the B4 lens onto such a big sensor..

This is the reason that you need to use the doubler when you have a Studio camera, Micro Studio camera or Normal Ursa..

Also the Ursa Broadcast is much more light sensitive then the micro studio cam.
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Xtreemtec

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Re: Micro Studio Camera no more?

PostThu Aug 05, 2021 12:40 pm

Kim Janson wrote:But despite all this, I think they where pioneers, and very reasonably priced. I hope we will see next version of them, it is about time after 6 years.


Oh i really do hope they will.. 1 that has 12G sdi interface. And bluetooth as most cams now have would be nice, no need for serial connection then..
But we will see what BMD comes up with..
Daniel Wittenaar .:: Xtreemtec Media Productions ::. -= www.xtreemtec.nl =-
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Re: Micro Studio Camera no more?

PostThu Aug 05, 2021 2:02 pm

you speak about this one ?
https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/blackmagicmicrostudiocamera4k

a new one with pan/tilt will be attractive
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Kim Janson

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Re: Micro Studio Camera no more?

PostThu Aug 05, 2021 2:03 pm

Yes we have done the BT, but really hope hard wired connection that can do the same, no hassle on pairing, no lost connections, it just works, but we will see.
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Xtreemtec

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Re: Micro Studio Camera no more?

PostThu Aug 05, 2021 2:11 pm

Videobegin wrote:you speak about this one ?
https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/blackmagicmicrostudiocamera4k

a new one with pan/tilt will be attractive


The page is still there but can not be found anymore by clicking trough the main website. Also resellers can not order it anymore!! ;)
Daniel Wittenaar .:: Xtreemtec Media Productions ::. -= www.xtreemtec.nl =-
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Howard Roll

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Re: Micro Studio Camera no more?

PostThu Aug 05, 2021 5:34 pm

Xtreemtec wrote:
Denny Smith wrote:Since the Ursa Broadcast camera uses the same sensor, that would be my conclusion also.
We might see a refresh of this camera also, using the sensor from the new Studio cameras, as the previous models did. Having the larger Four Thirds sensor is a nice addition, especially for smaller studios, allowing a better lens choice.
Cheers

Sorry Denny but the Micro Studio is NOT the same sensor as the Ursa Broadcast. It had the same sensor as the big studio camera. Which is now EOL and replaced since last week..

The ursa Broadcast has a much smaller sensor because they could not fit the image plane of the B4 lens onto such a big sensor..


The prior 4K Studio, 4K Micro, and the UB all use a version on the 1" Onsemi AR1011.

Good Luck
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Denny Smith

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Re: Micro Studio Camera no more?

PostThu Aug 05, 2021 5:48 pm

Thank you Howard, yes the original Studio cameras, Micro Studio and UB all use the same type/size sensor, as you pointed out.

Daniel, the Ursa Broadcast does have the 1-inch sensor (as Howard pointed out above), and the BMD B4 mount on the camera is optically corrected to expand the B4 lens image to cover the larger 1-inch sensor, like a reversed Speed Booster. But you are correct, without this optical block in the mount, a B4 lens would not cover the larger sensor. Daniel, I am surprised you didn’t know this. :roll:
Cheers
Last edited by Denny Smith on Thu Aug 05, 2021 5:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Xtreemtec

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Re: Micro Studio Camera no more?

PostThu Aug 05, 2021 5:54 pm

That strange info as a product manager from the camera department told me the UB has a different smaller sensor. Yes there is a correctional optics in there, that also counter acts some of the 3 chip setup of the B4 lens.. But as far as know to me the sensor in the UB is smaller.

Why else would BMD pull the Micro studio out of the ordering process due to it's sensor not available at the moment but UB can still be ordered.. Isn't that strange if they had the same sensor :? :cry:
Daniel Wittenaar .:: Xtreemtec Media Productions ::. -= www.xtreemtec.nl =-
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Denny Smith

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Re: Micro Studio Camera no more?

PostThu Aug 05, 2021 6:06 pm

Daniel, they might not be exactly the same sensor formula, as different versions of a given sensor family are made. But, they are same type/size of sensor from the same manufacturer, not sure of the individual sensor specifics. But when you remove the B4 mount, and look at the sensor and compare it to the Micro Studio sensor, they are the same size and look alike. BMD told me when I got my UB, that it used the same sensor as the Mciro Studio, but had a bigger heat sink system and more powerful video processor to help clean up the noise levels of the Micro Studio.[*].

Perhaps BMD still has some stock on the UB version of the sensor, so they have not pulled it, or they are planning an upgrade on the camera, like they did the Studio camera.
Cheers my friend
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David Hutchinson

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Re: Micro Studio Camera no more?

PostFri Aug 06, 2021 10:13 am

Micro Studio
Effective Sensor Size
13.056mm x 7.344mm

Ursa broadcast
Effective Sensor Size
2/3 inch sensor size when using 4K B4 mount (Actual sensor size 13.056mm x 7.344mm)

Calling these sensors 1" is just deceptive marketing- thankfully I've never seen BMD use that description.

These two seem to be slightly different sizes indicating they are not the same (version)
Blackmagic Studio Camera 4K
Effective Sensor Size
17.78mm x 10mm (Four Thirds)

Pocket 4K
Effective Sensor Size
18.96mm x 10mm (Four Thirds)
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Howard Roll

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Re: Micro Studio Camera no more?

PostFri Aug 06, 2021 12:52 pm

David Hutchinson wrote:Calling these sensors 1" is just deceptive marketing- thankfully I've never seen BMD use that description.


Deceptive marketing? It's a 1" sensor.

camera_sensor_sizes.png
camera_sensor_sizes.png (7.76 KiB) Viewed 1181 times


The disparity between the "effective" sensor size of the P4K and the new studio camera is likely a 16:9 UHD crop of the native 17:9 P4K sensor.

17.78÷18.96X4096=3841

I'd hazard both the P4K and the 4K Studio are using versions of the Sony IMX299.

Good Luck
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David Hutchinson

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Re: Micro Studio Camera no more?

PostFri Aug 06, 2021 9:40 pm

There's nothing 1" about the sensor. Most people hearing 1" sensor would understand the diagonal of the chip would measure 1". Even your graphic is misleading. Most people don't understand where the term 1" comes from.... that it is the size of a vacuum tube that can house a sensor with a 16mm diagonal. What on earth has size of a vacuum tube 50 years ago got to do with the size of sensors today, it's simply marketing speak perpetuated by companies who want to mislead their customers.
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Howard Roll

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Re: Micro Studio Camera no more?

PostFri Aug 06, 2021 10:59 pm

Learn something or don't.

Onsemi.png
Onsemi.png (195.37 KiB) Viewed 1031 times


Good Luck
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Denny Smith

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Re: Micro Studio Camera no more?

PostSat Aug 07, 2021 4:59 pm

David, I think your issue over calling the smaller sensor a “1-inch” sensor is down to expecting it to have a 1-inch diagonal. This is not correct, there is a 1-inch dimension in a 1-inch sensor, it has to fit inside a 1-inch diameter of a cathode ray tube. :idea: You need to understand where the term 1-inch and 2/3rds used to describe a sensor size of TV cameras came from. The terms 1-inch, 2/3rds, and 1/2-inch sensors goes back to early days of TV production, when vacuum tubes were used in the camera to capture the image (not CCDs or current single CMOS digital sensors), and the measurement refers to the size of the diameter of the video tube used, and the image sensor size area, inside this cathode ray tube.

A 1-inch tube was one inch in diameter, but the image area was a 4:3 rectangle inside the 1-inch round tube , and this image area was smaller than 1-inch to fit inside the one inch tube. Same goes for a 2/3rds sensor, it is the size of the rectangle drawn inside a 2/3rds of an inch diameter vacuum tube. Original aspect ratio of TV production was 4:3, cameras used tubes for capturing the image, and the terminology used today, is based on this early technology.

So yes, a 1-inch sensor is not one inch in any measurement, but smaller, so it could fit inside a 1-inch vacuum tube sensor area (not quite edge to edge), and it is the circle size of the tube, not actual sensor size, we use to describe their size. Since these tubes only were 1-inch or smaller, this term is only used for these smaller sensor sizes. Four Thirds and Micro Four Thirds sensors are based on a still photography digital camera standard, and both use the same size sensor. Larger sensors are described by the movie film format they are closest to in size, and are not necessarily the same size as their film counterpart. So it all comes down to the terminology we use to describe things.

Also the image from a lens is a circle, and it has to be large enough to cover the sensor corner to corner, so we are back agin to putting our rectangle image sensors inside a circle… :roll:
Cheers
Denny Smith
SHA Productions
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Denny Smith

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Re: Micro Studio Camera no more?

PostSat Aug 07, 2021 5:48 pm

If anyone is interested, I have a lightly used BMD Micro Studio camera setup available, complete with remote, cage and adapters, PM me for details.
Cheers
Denny Smith
SHA Productions
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David Hutchinson

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Re: Micro Studio Camera no more?

PostSat Aug 07, 2021 9:41 pm

Howard Roll wrote:Learn something or don't.



Good Luck

Lol
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David Hutchinson

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Re: Micro Studio Camera no more?

PostSat Aug 07, 2021 9:48 pm

Denny Smith wrote:David, I think your issue over calling the smaller sensor a “1-inch” sensor is down to expecting it to have a 1-inch diagonal. This is not correct, there is a 1-inch dimension in a 1-inch sensor, it has to fit inside a 1-inch diameter of a cathode ray tube. :idea: You need to understand where the term 1-inch and 2/3rds used to describe a sensor size of TV cameras came from. The terms 1-inch, 2/3rds, and 1/2-inch sensors goes back to early days of TV production, when vacuum tubes were used in the camera to capture the image (not CCDs or current single CMOS digital sensors), and the measurement refers to the size of the diameter of the video tube used, and the image sensor size area, inside this cathode ray tube.

A 1-inch tube was one inch in diameter, but the image area was a 4:3 rectangle inside the 1-inch round tube , and this image area was smaller than 1-inch to fit inside the one inch tube. Same goes for a 2/3rds sensor, it is the size of the rectangle drawn inside a 2/3rds of an inch diameter vacuum tube. Original aspect ratio of TV production was 4:3, cameras used tubes for capturing the image, and the terminology used today, is based on this early technology.

So yes, a 1-inch sensor is not one inch in any measurement, but smaller, so it could fit inside a 1-inch vacuum tube sensor area (not quite edge to edge), and it is the circle size of the tube, not actual sensor size, we use to describe their size. Since these tubes only were 1-inch or smaller, this term is only used for these smaller sensor sizes. Four Thirds and Micro Four Thirds sensors are based on a still photography digital camera standard, and both use the same size sensor. Larger sensors are described by the movie film format they are closest to in size, and are not necessarily the same size as their film counterpart. So it all comes down to the terminology we use to describe things.

Also the image from a lens is a circle, and it has to be large enough to cover the sensor corner to corner, so we are back agin to putting our rectangle image sensors inside a circle… :roll:
Cheers

Denny you need to read my post. I understand the etymology of the 1" sensor name. I don't need the history lesson. What I'm saying is other companies are using the term 1" sensor to mislead buyers who perhaps don't understand what it means. Thankfully that's something BMD does not do.
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Denny Smith

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Re: Micro Studio Camera no more?

PostSun Aug 08, 2021 5:36 am

Sorry David, I miss read your original post. :oops: Anyway, I provided a history lesson for those that do not understand where the term came from. :roll:
Cheers
Denny Smith
SHA Productions
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David Hutchinson

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Re: Micro Studio Camera no more?

PostSun Aug 08, 2021 3:56 pm

Denny Smith wrote:Sorry David, I miss read your original post. :oops: Anyway, I provided a history lesson for those that do not understand where the term came from. :roll:
Cheers

No Problem :D
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Sander Vreuls

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Re: Micro Studio Camera no more?

PostSun Aug 08, 2021 11:06 pm

Here's hoping a new version has all the relevant connections on the rear instead of on the side. 3 normal sized BNC's (12G in and out and analog ref) plus an XLR4 for power.
And then the HDMI and other connections as they see fit (pbb the 10G Ethernet they introduced on the new camera's too).

The connections on the side on the original just made it more bulky than it had to be, and the tiny BNC connectors are just not as sturdy as normal ones.

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