PsF Feature Request

Questions about ATEM Switchers, Camera Converter and everything live!
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Tundrawalker

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PsF Feature Request

PostWed Apr 01, 2020 6:21 pm

A number of the cameras I use with Live Switching do a pseudo 1080p Psf Progressive frame image. I use the 4K Production ATEM Switcher and now the ATEM mini. Because the ATEM mini converts the signal to match other sources automatically I can see that it is deinterlacing my Canon C100 PsF signal. Is it not possible to recognize or allow a software override so that these switchers consider or treat the footage as progressive when combining it with other true progressive signals?
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Jerome Heiderscheidt

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Re: PsF Feature Request

PostMon May 25, 2020 4:04 pm

+1 for this. I have the exact same problem with my Atem mini pro and my Canon C300 (mk1). I also tried using a SDI to HDMI microconverter but that also keeps the signal as PsF so it doesn't help.
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Denny Smith

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Re: PsF Feature Request

PostWed May 27, 2020 1:50 am

No, PSF is a split frame signal in an interlaced signal wrapper, to convert it back to progressive it needs to be reassembled.
Denny Smith
SHA Productions
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Jerome Heiderscheidt

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Re: PsF Feature Request

PostThu Jun 04, 2020 12:24 pm

I think that if the ATEM software had an option to disable deinterlacing, it would solve the problem, as detailed in this article : provideocoalition.com/blackmagic-atem-mini-video-mixer-with-shy-1080p-cameras/

Actually, when connecting my camera outputting PsF the the ATEM's camera 1 input and selecting "camera 1 direct" in the Output menu in ATEM software control, the image looks fine (no deinterlacing).
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Tom_Bassford

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Re: PsF Feature Request

PostThu Jun 04, 2020 2:42 pm

PSF will pass through when the switcher is set to 1080i


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Jerome Heiderscheidt

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Re: PsF Feature Request

PostThu Jun 04, 2020 3:40 pm

Yes but if you're using a combination of cameras, like I'm using a C300 (PsF), a BMCC, a BMPCC and a BMPCC4K (all 3 are Progressive) then it's problematic
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Howard Roll

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Re: PsF Feature Request

PostThu Jun 04, 2020 5:41 pm

PsF is visually indistinguishable from true progressive if deinterlaced properly. If the output of the switcher is progressive and you're seeing interlacing artifacts then it is likely a field issue.........unless you are frame doubling then what you see is correct.

Good Luck
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Jerome Heiderscheidt

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Re: PsF Feature Request

PostFri Jun 05, 2020 7:18 am

Thanks for the answers.
If you take a PsF signal, treat it as interlaced and just deinterlace it (which is what the ATEM mini pro is doing) then there is a huge image quality loss : half of the vertical resolution is being thrown away. This is very noticeable. Of course if you take a PsF signal and combine both fields as one progressive image then it is indistinguishable from true progressive , but this is not what is happening with the ATEM mini pro, hence the problem.

I hope Blackmagic will listen and bring the option to deal with PsF signals, as detailed in the article I link to earlier : provideocoalition.com/blackmagic-atem-mini-video-mixer-with-shy-1080p-cameras/
(sorry I had to remove the http because I'm not allowed to post links ! )
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Howard Roll

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Re: PsF Feature Request

PostFri Jun 05, 2020 2:35 pm

Does switching the output of the mini to 1080i solve the issue?
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Jerome Heiderscheidt

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Re: PsF Feature Request

PostFri Jun 05, 2020 4:07 pm

Maybe it's just me, but I have no interlaced options in the "set video standard menu to" , only a range of 1080p formats.
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tjones1897

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Re: PsF Feature Request

PostWed Feb 24, 2021 12:06 pm

Hey guys,

I ran into this PsF issue today while running 3 BMD Ursa Minis into a 40x40 with a Sony FS5 and a Sony FS7.

Trying to broadcast 24p to some projectors.

I solved it by running the Sonys into a Terranex Convertor each and then out to recorders. This gives actual 23.98p which is what I was looking for.

An expensive solution I know, but we happened to have 2 Terranex's in our Truck for other purposes and this is what I managed to come up with.

I assume adding a conversion function to the Switcher would up its price by quite a bit.
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Howard Roll

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Re: PsF Feature Request

PostWed Feb 24, 2021 4:19 pm

24 PsF is 48i, very few devices are capable of dealing with this frequency. I think folks tend to assume a 3:2 pulldown (60i) when it’s actually 1:1 (48i). The format was only used professionally and never saw widespread adoption.

The problem is compound as the system scales. Take an 8 camera system with associated support and it’s easily 100+ devices that need to support 48i. There’s always something that breaks the chain, throw gen lock into the mix, forget it.

Personally I try to run 24 for 60 if possible. True 24p can look a little strobey with live camera work and motion graphics look terrible @24.

Good Luck
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lee4wec

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Re: PsF Feature Request

PostFri Feb 26, 2021 5:50 pm

+1 for this feature for a pseudo 1080p Psf.

Decimator has this feature:
===================================================================
6. Scaling / 1080i=1080psf (Parameter)
This indicates if 1080i is recognised as 1080psf instead of 1080i. As 1080i and 1080psf have the same format structure.
===================================================================

Please BM, add this SIMPLE feature.
1) All of new BM switchers include auto UP/Down/Converts, like Atem Mini series and 4k,8k switchers. Because BM recognized this has been needed. the CEO said in his presentation himself. There is NO reason NOT to include this option as Psf is very widely used

2) this is not a new "feature" need to be a hard program

3) I hated buy 8 decimators for JUST for this, and hate to bring all decimators for Atem mini -> its against the concept of being mini

4) without proper conversion Psf, the image is 720p, choppy in case you have not seen it.

Please add this simple option for the next update.
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Jerome Heiderscheidt

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Re: PsF Feature Request

PostTue Mar 02, 2021 9:10 am

I personally solved the problem with my C300 by using an Atomos Connect-AC S2H HD-SDI to HDMI Converter (found it cheap on ebay), which has an option to convert the incoming SDI PsF signal to true P on the outgoing HDMI. But it would nevertheless be easier to be able to bypass the deinterlace on the atem mini ...
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lee4wec

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Re: PsF Feature Request

PostSun Sep 19, 2021 11:16 pm

I cannot believe Blackmagic still doesn't do anything about this issue for this many years. I have four decimators to 'fix' this simple feature but STILL, I have 10 more cameras. It is a huge drawback to bring decimators for each input JUST because Blackmagic is arrogant enough to ignore the issue.
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lee4wec

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Re: PsF Feature Request

PostFri Dec 03, 2021 4:55 pm

Jerome Heiderscheidt wrote:I personally solved the problem with my C300 by using an Atomos Connect-AC S2H HD-SDI to HDMI Converter (found it cheap on ebay), which has an option to convert the incoming SDI PsF signal to true P on the outgoing HDMI. But it would nevertheless be easier to be able to bypass the deinterlace on the atem mini ...

Yes, that is one way, but I have about 15 cameras that need to be "converted" and I find out my Decimator footage is still not good for fast-moving objects.

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