URSA G2 Picture Quality Issue

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NFSBuff

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URSA G2 Picture Quality Issue

PostTue Dec 28, 2021 4:20 pm

Hi all,

Just got a URSA G2 kit from the B&H, which comes with the G2 body and the Fujinon XA20sx8.5BERM-K3 lens. Eagerly got everything setup on the camera, got the lens' plane focused on target 70ft away, plugged the SDI output into my BMD Studio 4K switcher and the output was ... well, I hope I did something wrong.

The output is garbage.

What am I missing / doing wrong?

For comparison, I've attached screen grabs from the G2 as compared to the 2019 Studio 4K we've been using. No processing on the screenshots. This is what I'm seeing on output. That's as good a focus as I can get on G2, as well.

Help?


BMD Broadcast Gen 1 - Output.jpg
SDI Output
BMD Broadcast Gen 1 - Output.jpg (701.51 KiB) Viewed 1698 times


BMD URSA Gen 2 - Output.jpg
SDI Output
BMD URSA Gen 2 - Output.jpg (630.4 KiB) Viewed 1698 times
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MotionInPix

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Re: URSA G2 Picture Quality Issue

PostTue Dec 28, 2021 6:11 pm

I think the backfocus adjustment is not right.
You have to adjust the lens with the shimps.
For the colors, I would guess a wrong LUT or color space.
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NFSBuff

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Re: URSA G2 Picture Quality Issue

PostTue Dec 28, 2021 9:17 pm

Would an incorrect LUT make the noise level that high?

Cranking the Studio 4K to it's highest boost level looks far and away superior to the G2 at only a slight boost:
Attachments
Noise Sample - G2.jpg
4dB Boost
Noise Sample - G2.jpg (25.13 KiB) Viewed 1606 times
Noise Sample - Studio.jpg
18dB Boost
Noise Sample - Studio.jpg (30.35 KiB) Viewed 1606 times
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Asgeir Hustad

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Re: URSA G2 Picture Quality Issue

PostThu Dec 30, 2021 5:16 pm

MotionInPix wrote:I think the backfocus adjustment is not right.
You have to adjust the lens with the shimps.
For the colors, I would guess a wrong LUT or color space.


You should not need to adjust backfocus with the shims? There's a backfocus adjustment on this lens afaik, and on the new LA-lenses there is electronic backfocus adjustment.

For the colors, what is your Tint-setting, as well as the color space? You should be able to match them via the color correction panel, but this dramatic a difference seems pretty wild.

What are the color correction settings set to? Do you maybe have a correction set up for a camera with identical ID, so it gets some weird configuration?
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Howard Roll

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Re: URSA G2 Picture Quality Issue

PostFri Dec 31, 2021 5:50 am

It's not backfocus, At 70' back focus isn't that much of a problem The focus issue is probably derived from using an unexceptional B4 lens, wide open, through a 1.5X extender.

The color issue is likely HLG/2020 vs 709. Here a colorspace transform gets them lined up pretty well. I had to swing the hue a little but that's probably to be expected, the two cameras are using completely different sensors and color science.

The noise, I can't say. The 4K is exposed at least 2 stops hotter than the G2 yet the image is much closer than that in terms of overall exposure. This could call back to the HLG thing, hard to say the G2 is still pretty new.

Good Luck

HLG.jpg
HLG.jpg (174.59 KiB) Viewed 1409 times
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NFSBuff

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Re: URSA G2 Picture Quality Issue

PostMon Jan 03, 2022 2:42 pm

Howard Roll wrote:It's not backfocus, At 70' back focus isn't that much of a problem The focus issue is probably derived from using an unexceptional B4 lens, wide open, through a 1.5X extender.


This does seem to be the case. I didn't post it, but have additional imagery that shows significant color flanging at full zoom on bright surfaces using this lens. Our current cheap little Panasonic H-HSA35100 F2.8 II (the one used on the 4K sample shown here) looks worlds better by comparison. And no matter how much I adjusted the back focus the image has remained forever soft. I've arrived at the same conclusion: the lens is incredibly unexceptional. Whelming, if you will.

Thank you for demonstrating the color space issue, this makes total sense! I'll fiddle with it some more, but this gives me a sense of where to start.

I'm starting to see real world G2 reviews speak to it's not-so-great low light performance, despite the dual ISO advertising. I've done some additional testing outside and it makes a huge difference. Sadly that doesn't help our actual use case. Given our current success with the Studio 4K, maybe that's the direction we need to stick with. If only the MFT lens situation wasn't so terrible....
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LouisBacker

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Re: URSA G2 Picture Quality Issue

PostMon Jan 03, 2022 3:31 pm

NFSBuff wrote:
I'm starting to see real world G2 reviews speak to it's not-so-great low light performance, despite the dual ISO advertising. I've done some additional testing outside and it makes a huge difference. Sadly that doesn't help our actual use case. Given our current success with the Studio 4K, maybe that's the direction we need to stick with. If only the MFT lens situation wasn't so terrible....


For interior/studio use we've switched to Sony FX6 and FX9 where low light and autofocus performance is in another league. Our G1 Ursa Broadcasts remain absolutely fine for outside work however, and you have a wide range of lens options where long zooms are required, which is not so for the Sony FX's.
2 x Sony FX9, 2 x Sony FX6, 6 x Ursa Broadcasts, ATEM CCU, ATEM TV Studio 4K. NewTek Tricaster TC1 and 460. Reckeen 3D Studio. vMix 4K
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Robi BV

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Re: URSA G2 Picture Quality Issue

PostMon Jan 03, 2022 4:18 pm

Hi everyone, sorry for my bad English ...
I tested the Broadcast G2 with your same lens for a day and I noticed a lot of image difference between different lenses.
I suspect it is due to the low quality of the B4 adapter which alters its image.
It greatly reduces both definition (it always looks blurry) and adds magenta or green reverberations in strong contrasts.
I don't comment on high iso / gain performance because sometimes it's subjective, but certain alterations I don't think they are ...
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NFSBuff

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Re: URSA G2 Picture Quality Issue

PostTue Jan 04, 2022 3:07 am

LouisBacker wrote:
For interior/studio use we've switched to Sony FX6 ...


Louis, when you guys are using FX6 for studio work, what lens / control combo do you use? I'm not well versed in Sony's e-mount world. For example, are there e-mount f/2.8 lenses or equivalent available that have zoom and focus demand control like one might find with a Fujinon setup? If so, I'd jump ship to Sony. The low light performance of this G2 is just not cutting it here.
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LouisBacker

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Re: URSA G2 Picture Quality Issue

PostTue Jan 04, 2022 9:56 am

NFSBuff wrote:when you guys are using FX6 for studio work, what lens / control combo do you use?


We use:
Sony FE PZ 28-135mm f/4 G OSS
Sony FE C 16-35mm T3.1

Plenty of light available with these lenses and excellent resullts when outputting the S-Cinetone profile for live use.

We don't remote control, just local operator, though the FX9 has just received a firmware v3 upgrade to allow full CCU control.

We do a lot of green/blue screen shoots and where the Ursa Broadcast falls down is where people have dark clothing/shoes/hair, even with a 4K quality lens, noise is an issue. But don't get me wrong, outdoors, they perform perfectly well. I will still be looking at G2s however when buying new stock.
2 x Sony FX9, 2 x Sony FX6, 6 x Ursa Broadcasts, ATEM CCU, ATEM TV Studio 4K. NewTek Tricaster TC1 and 460. Reckeen 3D Studio. vMix 4K
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NFSBuff

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Re: URSA G2 Picture Quality Issue

PostThu Jan 06, 2022 4:43 pm

Robi BV wrote:Hi everyone, sorry for my bad English ...
I tested the Broadcast G2 with your same lens for a day and I noticed a lot of image difference between different lenses.
I suspect it is due to the low quality of the B4 adapter which alters its image.
It greatly reduces both definition (it always looks blurry) and adds magenta or green reverberations in strong contrasts. ...


Robi, thank you for mentioning this. We purchased the G2 / Fujinon kit last December, and noticed this right away. The magenta/green aberrations in high contrast situations were glaring. Combined with the terrible low light performance of the G2 and poor quality of the lens that came bundled with the G2, we're in the process of returning the kit and going in another direction.

Our 2019 Blackmagic Studio 4K with it's MFT lens continues to look far superior (!) [See original post]. The only negative is lack of lens control, which the B4 ecosystem excels at.
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gerson becker

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Re: URSA G2 Picture Quality Issue

PostFri Jan 07, 2022 9:16 pm

Hi, did some tests with G2:
Both cameras has a Canon HJ22x. All images G2 are in full detail and x400 no detail. Last image X400 30 detail.
Impressions: G2 has less color depth and X400 has a better color rendition.
Cant match the color accurately, but can work together if you put in separated places and shots.
X400 has more range. Blacker and whiter.
Will upload a horse race with both cameras next week.
Uploaded some images:


Hope this help to see the differences between the two cameras. And see the color rendition of both.
The cameras are in 1080i 60Hz, going through a Blackmagic switcher.
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NFSBuff

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Re: URSA G2 Picture Quality Issue

PostSun Jan 09, 2022 2:42 am

Thanks Gerson, appreciate the time to make this comparison and upload it. It continues to validate what we've been seeing on this end, and justify our decision in returning the G2.
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Tarek Saneh

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Re: URSA G2 Picture Quality Issue

PostSun Jan 09, 2022 10:29 pm

Hi Gerson, please shoot 4k with the ursa G2 and scale down to HD in the edit you will get better details hopefully, i still think the camera have potential but you can’t treat it like a regular eng camera its 1 cmos sensor x400 is 3cmos sensor so out of the box the colors will be more vibrant in rec709 in 3cmos prism sensor but with higher resolution filming and better rec709 lut this camera should give a better results…..now if you use ef lenses and film in 4k prores or 6k braw it will destroy x400
Tarek Saneh
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http://www.wonderweb.ae
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gerson becker

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Re: URSA G2 Picture Quality Issue

PostMon Jan 10, 2022 12:43 pm

Hi Tarek,
We bought the camera to use in live broadcast events. Mostly for the horse races that we do every week, with PMW-400 and PXW-X400 and some small cameras. Thats why the test was recorded in 1080i. Same work conditions that we do every week.
The camera is advertised as a ENG camera, and this way it must work as a regular ENG camera/setup. In a fast environment, like journalism, some times you dont have time for a 4k to 1080i and image processing.
Will try your suggestions, but its not my primary concern, since this is not the use for this camera.

Dont get me wrong. The camera is good for the price range. You have full control as in a regular CCU and the lens work fine. You can focus and zoom with the Canon HJ22exx7.7B IASE in the software and the iris control works fine.
Find one big missing funtion in the camera head. You cant control black level in the camera menu. Only in CCU. This is not good for ENG work.
We will work with the camera next thursday and post the results.
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Asgeir Hustad

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Re: URSA G2 Picture Quality Issue

PostMon Jan 10, 2022 2:07 pm

Absolutely agree that it's annoying to not have good enough color and black level controls without a CCU.

But REC709 is possible to set in-camera, so it will at least match the color space of the other cameras, if not necessarily the actual colors :D

I'm quite interested in comparisons for the G1 with the G2, to see if I need to do some LUT-setup when introducing a G2 to my existing setup...
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Tarek Saneh

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Re: URSA G2 Picture Quality Issue

PostFri Jan 14, 2022 2:09 pm

I think for broadcast live ENG work 3CMOS will always beat 1CMOC camera in color depth and richness, but little coloring in the edit the Ursa G2 is very good specially it's 4k
Tarek Saneh
Creative & Technical Director
http://www.wonderweb.ae
Dubai - UAE
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BennoZ

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Re: URSA G2 Picture Quality Issue

PostMon Jan 17, 2022 11:16 am

Please please keep in mind the XA20 is a ‘cheap’ lens compared to a broadcast Canon HJ22!!!

I have a BMPCC 4K and an Ursa G2 with Canon HJ11 and the image quality of both camera’s is almost exactly the same! The HJ11 has a bit CA and a little distortion, colors and sharpness are identical.

For the sharpness, don’t forget to set the detail to on with the desired setting with ENG shootings. You really don’t need to record in 4K and scale down in post.

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