ATEM CONSTELLATION.....MADI

Questions about ATEM Switchers, Camera Converter and everything live!
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David Claverie

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ATEM CONSTELLATION.....MADI

PostTue Nov 26, 2019 2:55 pm

Hi i have a question
on the documentation
for the atem constellation (see doc)
the MADI 1 is 1 to 30 SDI input (channel 1 and 2) so ....60 channel??????? ...+ 31/32
the maid 2 is 1 to 30 SDI input channel 3 and 4 so ...60 channel?????? ... + 31/32
MADI 1 is 64 ?
MADI 2 is 64?

i dont understand?
Please if somebody can explain me more!

And about MADI INPUT???
we can't Route the different sources in SDI OUT???

Thanks
David
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MambaFiber.com

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Re: ATEM CONSTELLATION.....MADI

PostTue Nov 26, 2019 6:18 pm

the BMD docs list the channels as stereo pairs. 32 stereo=64 mono. same thing...and a very common confusion for MADI documentation on many shows that I do. You learn to do the cross reference in your head really quickly after a while tho-at least I did.

if that explaination doesn't work, try this list ...expressed as Stereo Channels - BMDs way

Ch1 - SDI Input 1 ch1/ch2
Ch2 - SDI Input 2 ch1/ch2
Ch3 - SDI Input 3 ch1/ch2
Ch4 - SDI Input 4 ch1/ch2
.
.
.
Ch29 - SDI Input 29 ch1/ch2
Ch30 - SDI Input 30 ch1/ch2
Ch31 - External Mic
Ch32 - Analog XLR ch1/ch2

or I could list it this way....expressed as Mono Channels - the way I usually work, and how most consoles represent MADI

Ch1 - SDI Input 1 ch1
Ch2 - SDI Input 1 ch2
Ch3 - SDI Input 2 ch1
Ch4 - SDI Input 2 ch2
Ch5 - SDI Input 3 ch1
Ch6 - SDI Input 3 ch2
.
.
.
Ch59 - SDI Input 30 ch1
Ch60 - SDI Input 30 ch2
Ch61 - External Mic
Ch62 - External Mic
Ch63 - Analog XLR In ch1
Ch64 - Analog XLR In ch2

both ways convey the exact same channels in the MADI signal. Both are correct and acceptable.


In 8k mode, there aren't enough sources to fill all 64 channels, so only 14 stereo slots (28 mono slots) are used.

It really bugs me that they assigned the output channels this way. If you are interested in 4channel sources (like EVERYTHING in my kind of shows) I would much rather see SDI 1-15 as 4 channel in MADI 1, then sources 16-30 in MADI 2. As it is, if I need all 4 channels from SDI 3 and 4, I need to used both MADI outputs-difficult when most smaller consoles will only have a single MADI input. I'd also like to see the audio from the Media Players present in the MADI too. Ideally I could just assign whatever I wanted to the MADI outs-THAT would be EXCELLENT!! My .02 :-)
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David Claverie

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Re: ATEM CONSTELLATION.....MADI

PostWed Nov 27, 2019 8:51 am

Thanks very much
but when you say
"
Ch31 - External Mic
Ch32 - Analog XLR ch1/ch2
"
that the mic for talkback
and the 2 JACK input
on the constellation . exact?

so if i want to send a mix made by a console audio (not software BMD) , with the different MADI channel and other sources i send to the recorder (connect to atem constella) via the madi or direct via JaCK input?
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Xtreemtec

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Re: ATEM CONSTELLATION.....MADI

PostWed Nov 27, 2019 10:26 am

You send it back by Madi input on the costelation.. And then in the audio panel of the Atem open up that channel and it will be on your Program main mix. Which is then only in Stereo 2 channels on ALL SDI outputs. :roll:

The routing of the Madi channels and which channel goes to which SDI output / Embed more channels on an output is KEY to make this Madi interface worth it.

I mean if i need multiple output channels now in 12G 4K. I need 4 Teranex audio embedders to get the job done :cry: :cry:

Just want to do this on concerts and festivals:
1/2 Main mix all included
3/4 Music only
5/6 MC channel
7/8 Ambiance mics
9/10 Monitor mix

This way i'm able to re-adjust audio levels and mix after the show as all channels are recorded onto the Hyperdeck. Now sometimes it sounds good in the OB. And later the client says can dim that MC. or can i have some more Ambiance in there.. :roll:
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David Claverie

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Re: ATEM CONSTELLATION.....MADI

PostWed Nov 27, 2019 10:36 am

For me
in the obvan i ll put a CL3
i take via DANTE/MADI constellation to have the mic from camera (for example) and other source from input constellation
on the venue there is 2 cl5 (stage/FOH)

for the broadcast i connect the dante with the RIO from Stage
so in my obvan i can mix (routing dante) from several inputs atem and the dante (mix out group) from the stage. (MCs, DRUMS, GUITArs,.. and adjust all level

and this mix go to the hyperdeck(REC) and uplink(TV) and vmix (youtube,facebokk live,...)

Exact??
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Dominik Lenk

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Re: ATEM CONSTELLATION.....MADI

PostTue Mar 10, 2020 1:50 pm

Does anyone know if the MADI out of the constellation is simply deembedded from SDI sources? Or can it be set to respect AFV, only outputting audio on a MADI channel if the camera is live?
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Re: ATEM CONSTELLATION.....MADI

PostTue Mar 10, 2020 4:30 pm

The AFV only affects faders in the ATEM mixer. The Madi output channels from SDI sources are direct de-embed and not affected by the AFV.

A possible workaround...we never use the ATEM audio mixer for the broadcast, it's to limiting and we have far superior mixers externally. But we will use the ATEM mixer as a source for our other mixers, and let it AFV sound from certain channels of video. This function is highly useful sometimes.
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Re: ATEM CONSTELLATION.....MADI

PostSat Jun 11, 2022 7:13 pm

David Claverie wrote:For me
in the obvan i ll put a CL3
i take via DANTE/MADI constellation to have the mic from camera (for example) and other source from input constellation
on the venue there is 2 cl5 (stage/FOH)

for the broadcast i connect the dante with the RIO from Stage
so in my obvan i can mix (routing dante) from several inputs atem and the dante (mix out group) from the stage. (MCs, DRUMS, GUITArs,.. and adjust all level

and this mix go to the hyperdeck(REC) and uplink(TV) and vmix (youtube,facebokk live,...)

Exact??



i have a QL5 with some Dante outputs can i connect this to the constellation and then been able to see those signals in the atem from the stage? theres just so little information about this....
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Robert Betzner

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Re: ATEM CONSTELLATION.....MADI

PostMon Jun 13, 2022 2:49 pm

As I said in previous posts:

Have in mind that the ATEM has to be the masterclock in every scenario. There is no way to clock the Atem to an external digital clock. So if you use a Madi/Dante converter, make sure to set this converter to be the preferred "leader" in your Dante setup - otherwise you will have dropouts to/from the Atem.


Cheers

Robert
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Roman Pytkin Pekarek

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Re: ATEM CONSTELLATION.....MADI

PostTue Jun 14, 2022 8:08 am

YEs .. Im using Multiverter with SRC module to convert between MADI from Constelation and AES50 on Behringer WING ..
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Robert Betzner

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Re: ATEM CONSTELLATION.....MADI

PostTue Jun 14, 2022 1:30 pm

Yes - SRC is also a solution but not all converters have them. Allthough you'll get better sound quality if you sync to the Atem. All SRC processes reduce quality.


Cheers

Robert
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Videobegin

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Re: ATEM CONSTELLATION.....MADI

PostWed Jun 15, 2022 8:33 am

Xtreemtec wrote:I mean if i need multiple output channels now in 12G 4K. I need 4 Teranex audio embedders to get the job done :cry: :cry:

Just want to do this on concerts and festivals:
1/2 Main mix all included
3/4 Music only
5/6 MC channel
7/8 Ambiance mics
9/10 Monitor mix

This way i'm able to re-adjust audio levels and mix after the show as all channels are recorded onto the Hyperdeck. Now sometimes it sounds good in the OB.


Do any hyperdeck models record all 16 sdi audio channels ?
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Xtreemtec

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Re: ATEM CONSTELLATION.....MADI

PostWed Jun 15, 2022 4:11 pm

The 12G models do. You can even choose between 2,4 and 16 channels audio :D
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Re: ATEM CONSTELLATION.....MADI

PostWed Jun 15, 2022 4:39 pm

I have now hyperdeck-studio-4k-pro and hyperdeck-studio-12g so I will check documentation in order to find corresponding menu ;)

Professionnals on stage assume all sound parts. I would like to copy your organisation (1/2 Main mix, 3/4 Music only, 5/6 MC channel, etc...) for retreiving audio and inject them to my constellation 8K in van.

System must be compatible with mixers commonly used in stadium / venue. Are RME or others tools better then chaining converters ?
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Xtreemtec

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Re: ATEM CONSTELLATION.....MADI

PostThu Jun 16, 2022 7:29 am

Videobegin wrote:Professionnals on stage assume all sound parts. I would like to copy your organisation (1/2 Main mix, 3/4 Music only, 5/6 MC channel, etc...) for retreiving audio and inject them to my constellation 8K in van.

I have the same issue.. At this point BMD just puts PGM stereo on audio channels 1-12... While you want to add multitrack audio from the constellation..

Or in broadcast add different language and voiceovers in the different channels.. But heck it's not a broadcast switcher it seems..
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Dave Del Vecchio

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Re: ATEM CONSTELLATION.....MADI

PostThu Jun 16, 2022 12:18 pm

Videobegin wrote:Do any hyperdeck models record all 16 sdi audio channels ?
I believe all of the HyperDeck models are capable of recording 16-channel audio. This was actually a frequent complaint with the older HyperDeck models, as there was no way to configure the number of audio channels recorded, so they always recorded 16-channels.

The original HyperDeck Studio Mini was the first model that let you select how many audio channels to record. And this was carried forward into the newer models as well.

The only limitation is if recording H.264 (or H.265) and using AAC as the audio codec, then I believe you are limited to 2-channels of audio. To record more than 2-channels, you have to use PCM as the audio codec. The older HyperDeck models (that lacked H.264 recording options) always recorded PCM audio and didn't have an AAC codec option.
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Ben Doyle

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Re: ATEM CONSTELLATION.....MADI

PostFri Jun 17, 2022 4:12 pm

They HAVE to add SDI audio routing to the full Constellation line. They just have to. It's just not a truly professional product without this basic function.

(You could argue Timecode is lacking as well)
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Re: ATEM CONSTELLATION.....MADI

PostMon Jun 20, 2022 12:17 pm

Ben Doyle wrote:They HAVE to add SDI audio routing to the full Constellation line. They just have to. It's just not a truly professional product without this basic function.

(You could argue Timecode is lacking as well)


Don't hold your breath. I don't see it happening. The 8K Constellation is 3 years old now and we are still waiting. If it was on their roadmap it would have happened by now.

I've made peace with it by accepting it's really just a vision mixer and do all Audio outside the ATEM.
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Re: ATEM CONSTELLATION.....MADI

PostMon Jun 20, 2022 8:41 pm

This seems only a part of the global audio mess due to many systems.

What's the breakdown on stage rigs you see (AES50, madi, Dante) ?

Is it better to have madi/AES50 or madi/Dante converter for constellation ?
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Roman Pytkin Pekarek

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Re: ATEM CONSTELLATION.....MADI

PostMon Jun 20, 2022 11:24 pm

Videobegin : Im using Multiverter and its cross AES50/MADI/DANTE converter ..
http://tally.pytkin.sk
http://chucktv.eu
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David Hutchinson

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Re: ATEM CONSTELLATION.....MADI

PostTue Jun 21, 2022 7:32 am

Videobegin wrote:This seems only a part of the global audio mess due to many systems.

What's the breakdown on stage rigs you see (AES50, madi, Dante) ?

Is it better to have madi/AES50 or madi/Dante converter for constellation ?


I’ve been using the RME Digiface Dante for the last couple of years very successfully. It works for us because we extensively use Dante workflow outside the ATEM and we bring everything together in a Dante enabled audio mixer. It’s not cheap, but it just works. However getting hold of them atm is very difficult.
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Re: ATEM CONSTELLATION.....MADI

PostTue Jun 21, 2022 1:35 pm

Roman Pytkin Pekarek wrote:Im using Multiverter and its cross AES50/MADI/DANTE converter ..
The swiss knife ;) Did you also add multirate addon ?
David Hutchinson wrote:I’ve been using the RME Digiface Dante for the last couple of years very successfully. It works for us because we extensively use Dante workflow outside the ATEM and we bring everything together in a Dante enabled audio mixer. It’s not cheap, but it just works.
I hav'nt planned to use theses solutions but I have to face real word ! Extra costs for (mady, dante...) systems, will lower human and side equipments. With 80e/m for rubber lane, a simple and swappable ethernet cable is better 8-)

Well kown German reseller told me that AES50 take up 60% of market, followed by madi
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Roman Pytkin Pekarek

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Re: ATEM CONSTELLATION.....MADI

PostTue Jun 21, 2022 10:11 pm

Videobegin : Yes im using SRC-64 for MADI channels from Constelation .. And AJA 16 channel DANTE embeder ..
http://tally.pytkin.sk
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Re: ATEM CONSTELLATION.....MADI

PostFri Jun 24, 2022 1:01 pm

@Roman : following advice, I have a piece on the way. 8-)
- I wonder just how you connect converter to stage when over 100m lengh ?
- what's the place of AJA in your workflow ?
thanks.
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Roman Pytkin Pekarek

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Re: ATEM CONSTELLATION.....MADI

PostFri Jun 24, 2022 10:49 pm

Videobegin : Im using Behringer Wing as audio console in studio .. 16 buses from AES50 is going thru Multiverter to DANTE -> AJA embeder -> record to HYPERDECK ..

For 100M u can use DANTE over optics .. Or Im using CAMERA TRUNK in our OBVAN ..
Last edited by Roman Pytkin Pekarek on Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: ATEM CONSTELLATION.....MADI

PostMon Jun 27, 2022 6:11 am

Roman Pytkin Pekarek wrote:Videobegin : Im Behringer Wing as audio console in studio .. 16 buses from AES16 is going thru Multiverter to DANTE -> AJA embeder -> record to HYPERDECK ..
Extract audio from constellaton and re-embed it with limited number of channels... Why not keep audio operations outside constellation. Could Multitrack recording integrated in digital mixers be used instead :?:

Ps: just see new multiverter firmware.
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Roman Pytkin Pekarek

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Re: ATEM CONSTELLATION.....MADI

PostMon Jun 27, 2022 11:00 pm

Videobegin : Hyperdeck is great tool for master recording .. 16 audio channels is ideal for multiple languages , etc ..

YEs .. new FW for multiverter looks good :)
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Re: ATEM CONSTELLATION.....MADI

PostMon Jul 11, 2022 3:14 pm

helllo,

I have not plugged constellation on converter yet (need madi cable) but routing is easy. But multirate addon seems more trivial...

Any advices ?
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Roman Pytkin Pekarek

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Re: ATEM CONSTELLATION.....MADI

PostMon Jul 11, 2022 10:52 pm

U installed latest FW ? I was not tested it yet ..
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Re: ATEM CONSTELLATION.....MADI

PostTue Jul 12, 2022 10:32 am

Roman Pytkin Pekarek wrote:U installed latest FW ? I was not tested it yet ..

New product, last firmware, I don't have the choice ;)
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Re: ATEM CONSTELLATION.....MADI

PostTue Jul 12, 2022 10:41 pm

Yes I understand .. I was not seen new settings .. It was very easy in old firmare .. Just select input and output for SRC card ..
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Re: ATEM CONSTELLATION.....MADI

PostWed Aug 03, 2022 7:27 pm

hello,

Roman Pytkin Pekarek wrote:and AJA 16 channel DANTE embeder ..

@Roman : which model, I found only opengear 12G dante in rackframe ?
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Roman Pytkin Pekarek

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Re: ATEM CONSTELLATION.....MADI

PostWed Aug 03, 2022 11:05 pm

Yes that one .. It perfect .. But little bit expensive .. But its one and only 12G dante embeder I found ..

sonifex have nice embder, but its only 3G :

https://www.sonifex.co.uk/avn/avn-dio10.shtml
http://tally.pytkin.sk
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Re: ATEM CONSTELLATION.....MADI

PostThu Aug 04, 2022 1:38 am

thanks you confirmed that only one direct (dante to sdi) exist.
I deplore High price product (rackframe gear) and over priced cost here due to lack of challenge between resellers :evil: If someone know a source with affordable prices in EU ?

In old thread, people explored solution with AES3/EBU step (dante to AES to sdi). Less channels, less cost and may be collateral defects (delay, quality...) :?:
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Re: ATEM CONSTELLATION.....MADI

PostThu Aug 04, 2022 10:37 pm

In OBVAN i have BMD 12G embeders (teranex mini) .. I wanted to use AES from Midas DL155 .. But i got random cracks in signal .. Im not sure , where is problem .. But i was switched embeders to analog , ang got only half number of channels :(
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Re: ATEM CONSTELLATION.....MADI

PostFri Aug 05, 2022 3:12 am

I'm considering this couple :

12G-SDI 8-Channel AES Audio Embedder/Disembedder
https://www.aja.com/products/12g-am

Dante to AES3 16 Channel I/O Converter
https://www.sonifex.co.uk/avn/avn-dio19.shtml

...
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Roman Pytkin Pekarek

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Re: ATEM CONSTELLATION.....MADI

PostFri Aug 05, 2022 10:10 pm

Looks good :)
http://tally.pytkin.sk
http://chucktv.eu
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