Who uses this stuff?? Seriously…. Workflow BLOWS

Questions about ATEM Switchers, Camera Converter and everything live!
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Pitspeeder

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Who uses this stuff?? Seriously…. Workflow BLOWS

PostFri Jul 29, 2022 6:43 am

I own more than a few BMD Products

Studio Resolve (Thank YOU!)
Speed Editor (Thank YOU!)… how I got Studio (Thank you again)
Mini Panel (Thank YOU again).. got another Studio Resolve (Bonus)
Pocket Cinema 6k Pro (That I kitted out) Very Happy with it (Thanks Again)… but it comes with a hang-over, and another studio resolve (Extra Bonus!)
ATEM Mini Extreme ISO (Maybe another copy of Resolve Studio… thank you regardless)

So now I am having some eco-system issues:

I want to run a VERY simple 2 camera Basement Studio Setup.

Before you rush ahead…. Lets agree that this is a VERY simple studio setup (We’ll come back to this soon)

So I go shopping…. at BMD. For an A/B Camera (Hey, I’m invested right?)

Lots of selection… I have a 6K, its talking Head… I can get away with a 4K B-Cam for Cuts in post, but still have some live stream capabilities that I can control in a switcher right?

At this point I would like to make clear that I am not trying to “stream” at 4K (although that option should be available already… keep reading). Lets ASSUME I am trying to stream at 1080P…

So clearly I can simply output an SDI or HDMI from Camera to ATEM EXTREME and all conversions happen on-board (great!).

Problem…. I would like to record this nice 6K and maybe clean it up in post for another deliverable. Or just save a damn clip for that matter. I would also like to do stream it live (1080p is fine!)

Out of the 6K Pro it is local only. HDMI is 1080p (My F-ing a6300 can do a clean feed 4K/30).

So at this point I should be looking for a Studio Camera. Which surely can output 6K via SDI and 4K via HDMI right? Oh wait it gets a whole lot worse…

Lets remind you I am doing a basement home 2 cam studio. Hoping to record 4K and stream at whatever (I have a 1Gbps Fibre line).

Why is this impossible? Or at the very least F-ing TV Studio expensive and utterly convoluted?

I have BIG questions:

1) Why are the Hyperdeck 4K Pro only a single SDI input/output????????????
Why can’t I have a simple multi-port pass-through, which records in 4K or lower and pass through the device to your web presenter…. which does the scaling?)

Rhetorical question… I know, so;

2) #1 would suggest that we logically need a switcher before the recorder, and simply record the ISOs…. Except we CAN’T. Well we can…. but we instantly get converted to 1080p… for both stream &&&&& Record <gun to my head>

Or, at least not without spending $15,000.00 for a single camera setup. <2 guns to my head>

Reminder…. Looking to add a camera to a basement studio. That 15K doesn’t include a studio camera… with the fluff/gear also needed (I am not going to dive into the MFT… because the back-end is so F-ing broken before we even get that far, but it deserves mention)

It’s a F-ing Studio Camera!!!! We don’t need 60fps…. we need 6K with some crop room in post for 4K delivery! It’s a STUDIO CAMERA!

Great you added some Outputs/Inputs…. but what are you connecting these things to?

Oh…. ethernet to converter. Which will provide the power… but needs to be powered itself to accommodate….

Why do I need a converter again? Especially since it just converts things back to SDI, which I can output natively. Oh… and why don’t I just power the camera directly?

More importantly;

Why does the converter only have 1 ethernet port? Shouldn’t it be a switch, so that we plug the camera in and then plug it into the network for the A/V switch to control? Wait… explain again why we even need the converter? On that note, we’ll dig even deeper… why 1080p on all HDMI?

I went shopping… all I bought was a boat-load of free questions…..
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Pitspeeder

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Re: Who uses this stuff?? Seriously…. Workflow BLOWS

PostSat Jul 30, 2022 6:14 am

Ya I know… Man ask stupid questions…

Losing faith.
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Pitspeeder

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Re: Who uses this stuff?? Seriously…. Workflow BLOWS

PostSat Jul 30, 2022 6:15 am

Ya I know… Man ask stupid questions…

Losing faith.
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andisailer

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Re: Who uses this stuff?? Seriously…. Workflow BLOWS

PostSat Jul 30, 2022 8:51 pm

The Minis are 1080p switchers, so it wouldn't matter if the cameras output 4k or 6k, though it would be nice if they did.
You don't need the ethernet converter if you don't have long cable runs, but if you have a 6k Pro I'd probably rather get a Pocket 6k anyway, to stay with the EF-mount.

Why don't you record 6k on the cameras and replace the 1080p clips in the resolve project created by your Extreme ISO? There's a pretty straightforward workflow for that.
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Jack Fairley

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Re: Who uses this stuff?? Seriously…. Workflow BLOWS

PostSun Jul 31, 2022 2:01 am

You could have accomplished your goal if you had a plan when you started spending. Two studio cameras, ATEM SDI, two 4K decks, 4K web presenter.
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robertsmu

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Re: Who uses this stuff?? Seriously…. Workflow BLOWS

PostSun Jul 31, 2022 2:21 am

I know of no one who works in a 6k environment in the studio. It is either 4k or 1080p. Sometimes 720p.

And as andisailer recommended record 6k in the camera.

Why are the Hyperdeck 4K Pro only a single SDI input/output????????????
Why can’t I have a simple multi-port pass-through, which records in 4K or lower and pass through the device to your web presenter…. which does the scaling?)

I’m not sure what you mean by this, but the Hyperdeck can record a 4k signal and output 1080p via the monitor output clean feed.


I don’t know, but to me your “very simple 2 camera system” is not so simple.
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Howard Roll

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Re: Who uses this stuff?? Seriously…. Workflow BLOWS

PostSun Jul 31, 2022 6:07 am

robertsmu wrote:I know of no one who works in a 6k environment in the studio.


Nobody does because 6K (18G???) doesn't exist over SDI for anything except maybe raw.

Pitspeeder wrote:Problem…. I would like to record this nice 6K and maybe clean it up in post for another deliverable. Or just save a damn clip for that matter. I would also like to do stream it live (1080p is fine!)

Out of the 6K Pro it is local only. HDMI is 1080p (My F-ing a6300 can do a clean feed 4K/30).

So at this point I should be looking for a Studio Camera. Which surely can output 6K via SDI and 4K via HDMI right? Oh wait it gets a whole lot worse…


Maybe learn something before throwing a hissy over an imaginary workflow. Immature rants like these are bringing the place down. If folks can't be a little more professional they should be banned, full stop. F-ing, really?

Good Luck
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codedeltajames

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Re: Who uses this stuff?? Seriously…. Workflow BLOWS

PostSun Jul 31, 2022 11:58 am

I'm going to ignore most of the rant and try to answer just the questions.

Pitspeeder wrote:Lots of selection… I have a 6K, its talking Head… I can get away with a 4K B-Cam for Cuts in post, but still have some live stream capabilities that I can control in a switcher right?

Yes, both the 6K and 4K pocket cameras can be connected to a live switcher.

Pitspeeder wrote:At this point I would like to make clear that I am not trying to “stream” at 4K (although that option should be available already… keep reading). Lets ASSUME I am trying to stream at 1080P…

So clearly I can simply output an SDI or HDMI from Camera to ATEM EXTREME and all conversions happen on-board (great!).

Despite the 4K and 6K HDMI outputs being limited to 1080p, this workflow will work.

Pitspeeder wrote:So at this point I should be looking for a Studio Camera. Which surely can output 6K via SDI and 4K via HDMI right?

Wrong. Both the Studio Camera models are 4K resolution.

Pitspeeder wrote:Lets remind you I am doing a basement home 2 cam studio. Hoping to record 4K and stream at whatever (I have a 1Gbps Fibre line).

Why is this impossible?

It isn't.

Pitspeeder wrote:Or at the very least F-ing TV Studio expensive and utterly convoluted?

It isn't.

Pitspeeder wrote:1) Why are the Hyperdeck 4K Pro only a single SDI input/output????????????
Why can’t I have a simple multi-port pass-through, which records in 4K or lower and pass through the device to your web presenter…. which does the scaling?)

The Hyperdeck 4K Pro has a loop-through SDI, two dedicated SDI outputs and an HDMI output. The loop-through SDI will always carry the SDI input signal. The other SDI outputs and HDMI output will carry the selected input signal when in record mode, and the recorded signal when in playback mode. For the purpose of taking ISO recordings, all of those outputs would carry the input signal.

Pitspeeder wrote:2) #1 would suggest that we logically need a switcher before the recorder, and simply record the ISOs…. Except we CAN’T. Well we can…. but we instantly get converted to 1080p… for both stream &&&&& Record <gun to my head>

No, it doesn't. Having the switcher after the ISO recordings is pretty standard, and easily possible with the Hyperdeck 4K Pro.

Pitspeeder wrote:It’s a F-ing Studio Camera!!!! We don’t need 60fps…. we need 6K with some crop room in post for 4K delivery! It’s a STUDIO CAMERA!

The Studio Camera models are optimised for live production. 60fps is absolutely required for live productions - maybe not talking head stuff streamed to YouTube, but any form of fast motion (e.g. sports) coverage will be demanding 50/60 fps capture. Their design is not based around the idea of capturing a large plate for post-production - that is what the cinema line of cameras are for, including the Pocket cameras.

Pitspeeder wrote:Great you added some Outputs/Inputs…. but what are you connecting these things to?

The downstream and upstream devices, such as microphones, video switchers etc.

Pitspeeder wrote:Oh…. ethernet to converter. Which will provide the power… but needs to be powered itself to accommodate….

Yes, most devices require powering, I'm not sure what the issue is here?

Pitspeeder wrote:Why do I need a converter again? Especially since it just converts things back to SDI, which I can output natively. Oh… and why don’t I just power the camera directly?

Ah, I think I follow now - you think you need the Studio Converter to access the full capabilities of the camera - this is not true. The Studio Converter is designed for live broadcast use, allowing all the camera connections to be done over a single ethernet cable. Completely useless for the sort of setup you describe, but extremely useful for a proper TV studio or outside broadcast environment where the camera is a significant distance from the rest of the equipment.

Pitspeeder wrote:More importantly;

Why does the converter only have 1 ethernet port? Shouldn’t it be a switch, so that we plug the camera in and then plug it into the network for the A/V switch to control?

The Converter has a second, currently unutilised, ethernet port for control. The ethernet link between the camera and converter is not designed to be interrupted or shared between multiple devices and is a simple point-to-point link. Multiple ports on that connection make no sense. The Studio Converter will send back various control signals to the camera head when it receives them on it's return video connectors.

Pitspeeder wrote:Wait… explain again why we even need the converter? On that note, we’ll dig even deeper… why 1080p on all HDMI?

The Studio Converter doesn't have an HDMI port - and as far as I can tell, the Studio Camera models both output 4K on their HDMI ports.



---------

The solution...

Doing what you want is simple. Buy an Atem Mini with Iso recording functionality, such as the Atem Mini Extreme Iso, connect your two Pocket Cameras to the Atem over HDMI. Fit both cameras with recording cards. Use the Atem Mini for your live stream at 1080p. Use the camera recordings to do your post production work. This workflow is designed into the equipment, with the cameras getting timecode and recording start/stop commands from the Atem Mini, and the project file the Atem Mini generates as part of the ISO functionality enables you to swap in the footage you recorded (at 4K/6K) in camera when you edit.
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David Hutchinson

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Re: Who uses this stuff?? Seriously…. Workflow BLOWS

PostTue Aug 02, 2022 9:45 am

codedeltajames wrote:I'm going to ignore most of the rant and try to answer just the questions.



You deserve a medal for going through that one! Props!

It always amuses me when people by an ATEM Mini and then complain it can't do the same as an 8K.... :o

Shock Horror - products are made to a price point - if you want ATEM 8K functionality buy the right kit for your needs. Don't buy a mini and and complain it can't do 4K.
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Raphaël Jacquot

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Re: Who uses this stuff?? Seriously…. Workflow BLOWS

PostTue Aug 02, 2022 11:08 am

Pitspeeder wrote:Problem…. I would like to record this nice 6K and maybe clean it up in post for another deliverable. Or just save a damn clip for that matter. I would also like to do stream it live (1080p is fine!)


simple:

* add cfast cards to your BMPCC cameras
* in the atem iso, tell it to control recording inside the cameras.
-> resolve will be able to sync all files with timecode and replace the 1080p recorded by the atem iso with the 6k sources.
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Pitspeeder

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Re: Who uses this stuff?? Seriously…. Workflow BLOWS

PostWed Aug 10, 2022 12:28 am

Firstly, thanks for the replies.

Unfortunately my original post was a bit ranty, but expresses my frustration perfectly, and is therefore not only relevant, but necessary.

I am trying to spend money in this eco-system, but BMD keep pulling the Apple Moves (taking things 80% of the way and inexplicably stopping.)

My frustrations are in the details. In fact the dysfunction is in the details… EVERYWHERE.

#1: BMD website is horribly vague. (output resolutions, recording resolutions, etc.)
#2: The workflow is terribly dysfunctional, I will try to explain;

I have a Pocket 6K Pro for an everyday utility camera. It works brilliantly, except when I try to put it in a studio environment. Why? 1080p resolution out the HDMI. It can record 6K, 4K, ETC. But it cannot (for some unknown 80% reason) output more than that.

Sometimes I stream, sometimes I just record. I record in 6K only because I can, and it gives me some flexibility in post with movement, and a good old fashioned crop cut… to 4K with no downsampling in post if the need arises.

I knew the limitation when I bought it, but it does not excuse the fact that a newer-esque camera is output 1080p on the hdmi (as said in my post even the A6300 does 4K out of HDMI for monitoring and/or recording externally)

For the above reason, I am at a fork in the road.

I like the BRAW capabilities, and I am running 2 separate workflows, sometimes simultaneously. So I am trying to expand my involvement in the eco-system.

This is where things strangely fall apart. Which is ironic when I listen to everyone praise the eco-system. I am no fan-boy of any one brand BTW.

So I have a problem with the Pocket 6K not standing up so tall in a studio environment.

I am fully aware that I can record 6K to CFast and sync in post… except I can’t really. I use timecode (who in this day and age records on the camera????)

OK…. so as I said before…. this is a studio environment. The goal is to set it, keep it, and forget it. Stream and record at the same time (sometimes only 1 or the other). 1 Setup… you know…. a STUDIO.

Which means that I run into a problem:

As soon as I add another camera, and require streaming and recording simultaneously, the workflow falls apart.

I understand that the ATEM mini Extreme Pro ISO only does 1080p. I knew that before I bought it. But as with the Pocket 6K output underwhelming performance, the Mini Extreme also falls flat on its face, and continues to do so with the new SDI version. Why can it accept a 4k/6K signal, but can’t record it? Why does the dow sample happen before the recording? Why must everything be instantly downsampled?

So… I start looking for *something that can record 4K* and output whatever…. I am ok with a 1080p output, because I just want a central place that I can record the 2 cameras, and then send those to my streaming mixer.

Or;

Invest in the 4K mixer in/out. Or some kind of bridge that can record the 4K input at 4K and output 1080/4K (I’m not fussy on the streaming output).

So the main goal is to record all of my sources in a single place where I can then input my own timecode in some way (audio is fine, I can work with that). Then output it if I need to the streaming mixer.

At this point we should revisit the lack of ability to record natively and output downsampled. We just got an SDI version of the mini extreme, and it can accept simple highs resolutions, but STILL only records in 1080p (WHY!?!?) I am sure that many would like a 4k streaming capability… but I am only asking for 1080p Stream and native resolution recording. It’s a simple signal path adjustment that if we are all honest could/should have been solved in the SDI Extreme ISO. 80%

It is also worth noting that I am willing to upgrade the mixer. I am shopping remember.

Someone mentioned that I could grab a couple studio 4k pros, grab a couple 4k Hyperdecks, and then shoot it all to a 4K Webpresenter.

Lets talk about that (I explored it);

Each camera will need its own hyperdeck. Which in itself is ridiculous. I can plug 8 (albeit 1080p) sources into the Mini Extreme ISO and record a plethora of different file simultaneously. Why can I only record 1 input per hyperdeck. Looping only accomplishes more storage. You know… that purpose built recorder…. I digress.

But this is fine in a single camera scenario. Add a camera, and the 4K webpresenter falls apart. 1 Input. 1 Output. Which means only 1 channel of hyperdecks…. WHY!?!?! 80%

I just need a centralized recorder for 4K, that will accept external timecode, and output 1080P to a mixer to stream (I’ll even buy the dedicated streaming box).

I understand that my first post came off as a rant. It was. Only because after spending too much time trying to buy into this eco-system, I am finding it impossible. The impossible is caused by the 80% mentality.

Can anyone enlighten me. What am I missing? This and my first post is more of a question than a rant. If it comes off as a rant, please prove me wrong/stupid. I have a budget, but not a TV Station Budget.

Thanks for any replies.
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Jack Fairley

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Re: Who uses this stuff?? Seriously…. Workflow BLOWS

PostWed Aug 10, 2022 2:42 am

Pitspeeder wrote:#1: BMD website is horribly vague. (output resolutions, recording resolutions, etc.)

The site is actually much easier to get information from than, say, Sony (though Sony manuals can be very good).

Pitspeeder wrote:I understand that the ATEM mini Extreme Pro ISO only does 1080p. I knew that before I bought it. But as with the Pocket 6K output underwhelming performance, the Mini Extreme also falls flat on its face, and continues to do so with the new SDI version. Why can it accept a 4k/6K signal, but can’t record it?

It can't, and the specs plainly state that. It's an HD switcher.

Pitspeeder wrote:It’s a simple signal path adjustment that if we are all honest could/should have been solved in the SDI Extreme ISO. 80%

It's not, because none of the components they use in the HD switchers can handle the amount of bandwidth or image processing for 4K - this is especially important when it comes to recording.

Pitspeeder wrote:Someone mentioned that I could grab a couple studio 4k pros, grab a couple 4k Hyperdecks, and then shoot it all to a 4K Webpresenter.

Lets talk about that (I explored it);

Each camera will need its own hyperdeck. Which in itself is ridiculous.

No, this is normal. The FPGAs inside are strong enough to encode one channel of video, and can do so in very high quality ProRes/DNxHR flavors, even uncompressed. Some 4K recorders will let you do 4 HD inputs instead, but BMD doesn't sell one like that.

Pitspeeder wrote:I can plug 8 (albeit 1080p) sources into the Mini Extreme ISO and record a plethora of different file simultaneously. Why can I only record 1 input per hyperdeck. Looping only accomplishes more storage. You know… that purpose built recorder…. I digress.


It can record up to 8 1080p h.264 files at once, at up to 70 Mb/s. That isn't acceptable quality for most studios.

Pitspeeder wrote:But this is fine in a single camera scenario. Add a camera, and the 4K webpresenter falls apart. 1 Input. 1 Output. Which means only 1 channel of hyperdecks…. WHY!?!?! 80%


It's not a video router, it's an encoder. That isn't where distribution is done in a studio system.

Pitspeeder wrote:I just need a centralized recorder for 4K, that will accept external timecode, and output 1080P to a mixer to stream (I’ll even buy the dedicated streaming box).


You can't afford it (and neither can most). Multi-channel 4K recording means media server with IO card and very fast storage. Just isn't as easy as you want it to be, unfortunately.

Pitspeeder wrote:I understand that my first post came off as a rant. It was. Only because after spending too much time trying to buy into this eco-system, I am finding it impossible. The impossible is caused by the 80% mentality

Can anyone enlighten me. What am I missing? This and my first post is more of a question than a rant. If it comes off as a rant, please prove me wrong/stupid. I have a budget, but not a TV Station Budget.

Thanks for any replies.


You don't understand how these devices are intended to be put together. Every component does one specific task, which makes problems easy to diagnose, and faulty equipment easy to replace. Accept the system, rather than try and fight it to make it work a way that it doesn't need to work. This is typical:

All cameras go into video router
Switcher program feed goes into video router
Cameras are sent from video router outputs to switcher inputs
Cameras are sent from video router outputs to recorder inputs
Switcher program feed is sent from video router output to the encoder

Your setup is very small, so you could get away with using the outputs of the switcher instead of a multiviewer, with one of the 4K switchers.
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Raphaël Jacquot

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Re: Who uses this stuff?? Seriously…. Workflow BLOWS

PostWed Aug 10, 2022 6:12 am

Pitspeeder wrote:As soon as I add another camera, and require streaming and recording simultaneously, the workflow falls apart.

I understand that the ATEM mini Extreme Pro ISO only does 1080p. I knew that before I bought it. But as with the Pocket 6K output underwhelming performance, the Mini Extreme also falls flat on its face, and continues to do so with the new SDI version. Why can it accept a 4k/6K signal, but can’t record it? Why does the dow sample happen before the recording? Why must everything be instantly downsampled?

as they say: "you're doing it wrong"
  • the Atem mini extreme pro ISO is a 1080P60 max video mixer, that does record ISOs of all the inputs simultaneously (at 1080p60), and is able to stream at the same time. it also save a blackmagic resolve project that you can use to re-cut the program in case you missed something.
  • the Atem mini is able to send a record order to all cameras as soon as you select the "record / record in all cameras" option. it will also send timecode to all cameras so that they are all synced to the proxy recording done by the Atem ISO and the resolve file.
  • resolve will automatically sync all the media from the cameras when you import them into the project, replacing the proxy generated by the video mixer with the higher resolution versions.
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Kim Janson

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Re: Who uses this stuff?? Seriously…. Workflow BLOWS

PostWed Aug 10, 2022 6:52 am

This is impossible to follow, what is the setup and what is the problem. A picture how things are connected would help a great deal.

And that is also for BMD. Having pictures explaining what components are needed to archive few standard needs, like this one sounds like, a basement setup with two cameras.

That would help a great deal to understand what components are needed, what are the capabilities and limitations of that setup.

Flowcharts like this I mean, with explanation what they can do and what not. ( https://www.pro-tools-expert.com/produc ... w-its-done )

Livestream+Signal+Flow.jpg
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